996 Reliability Survey - Admin Approved!
05-04-2010, 06:23 PM
#1
Still plays with cars.
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996 Reliability Survey - Admin Approved!
Some time ago, Michael Karesh posted an attempt to gather real data on the reliability of the 996. A few immediately and incorrectly assumed that he was another disgruntled 996 owner that had suffered an IMS failure.
As a result the thread and any good it could have done was blown apart.
For those that don't know, Michael Karesh runs Truedelta - a site which collects real data on the reliability of various models of cars.
I participate in his surveys by supplying him with repair info on my cars. Check out www.truedelta.com for yourself. It is the real deal.
As we all know, people with problems tend to post while those without do not. What Michael is trying to do is to collect enough data to give us the real picture.
This means that all of us who have or have owned a 996 without or IMPORTANT without problems are encouraged to report. If he gets enough responses, we'll get - finally a true picture of the reliability of the 996.
I encourage all to participate in this survey.
I am repeating Michael's original post below.
-----------------------------
I wanted more up-to-date car reliability information that included actual repair rates. So in late 2005 I started getting people together to make this possible. TrueDelta now updates actual repair frequencies, not just dots, four times a year, to report on new models sooner then track cars closely as they age.
With 350 owners signed up to participate so far, we've started providing reliability stats for the Boxster and Cayman. I would like to do the same for the 911. Just a matter of getting enough owners involved. So I'm grateful to this forum for giving me permission to post about the survey here.
To encourage participation, participants receive full access to all results, not just those for the 911, for free. I'll share results, once we have them, in this thread after each update.
For the details, and to sign up to help out:
http://www.truedelta.com/reliability.php
----------------------------
Thanks for your co-operation!
As a result the thread and any good it could have done was blown apart.
For those that don't know, Michael Karesh runs Truedelta - a site which collects real data on the reliability of various models of cars.
I participate in his surveys by supplying him with repair info on my cars. Check out www.truedelta.com for yourself. It is the real deal.
As we all know, people with problems tend to post while those without do not. What Michael is trying to do is to collect enough data to give us the real picture.
This means that all of us who have or have owned a 996 without or IMPORTANT without problems are encouraged to report. If he gets enough responses, we'll get - finally a true picture of the reliability of the 996.
I encourage all to participate in this survey.
I am repeating Michael's original post below.
-----------------------------
I wanted more up-to-date car reliability information that included actual repair rates. So in late 2005 I started getting people together to make this possible. TrueDelta now updates actual repair frequencies, not just dots, four times a year, to report on new models sooner then track cars closely as they age.
With 350 owners signed up to participate so far, we've started providing reliability stats for the Boxster and Cayman. I would like to do the same for the 911. Just a matter of getting enough owners involved. So I'm grateful to this forum for giving me permission to post about the survey here.
To encourage participation, participants receive full access to all results, not just those for the 911, for free. I'll share results, once we have them, in this thread after each update.
For the details, and to sign up to help out:
http://www.truedelta.com/reliability.php
----------------------------
Thanks for your co-operation!
05-04-2010, 07:13 PM
#2
Speaking for myself only, i would have been more charitable if the request had been more transparent.
Just wanted to be clear about my personal involvement in that debate.
05-04-2010, 07:29 PM
#3
Nordschleife Master
Bob, we didn't assume he was disgruntled (at least I didn't) but rather identified once again the futility of this endeavor. I have spoken with him at great length offline so as not to bore the board with two statisticians talking shop.
I do agree that the initiative he is taking is a good one in building a DESCRIPTIVE database. What we CANNOT do is be able to run any sort of credible analysis that would lead to a causal conclusion. There are many more aspects to this that need to be understood but I won't get into them here.
As long as people understand that
1. This is a BUSINESS for him
2. This will be a repository of SELF-REPORT data from a NON-RANDOMLY SELECTED SAMPLE.
3. This data will have ZERO CAUSAL interpretation or value
ps. if you would please Bob, please elaborate what "admin approved" means and why it is necessary. Is he a small business sponsor of Rennlist that has requested this be stated to earn some sort of "seal of approval"?
I do agree that the initiative he is taking is a good one in building a DESCRIPTIVE database. What we CANNOT do is be able to run any sort of credible analysis that would lead to a causal conclusion. There are many more aspects to this that need to be understood but I won't get into them here.
As long as people understand that
1. This is a BUSINESS for him
2. This will be a repository of SELF-REPORT data from a NON-RANDOMLY SELECTED SAMPLE.
3. This data will have ZERO CAUSAL interpretation or value
ps. if you would please Bob, please elaborate what "admin approved" means and why it is necessary. Is he a small business sponsor of Rennlist that has requested this be stated to earn some sort of "seal of approval"?
05-04-2010, 07:31 PM
#4
With respect, Bob, what Michael is trying to do is build a business. We might choose to call this 'collecting data for the common good' to make us feel better, but in my world we call it 'user generated content.'
Speaking for myself only, i would have been more charitable if the request had been more transparent.
Just wanted to be clear about my personal involvement in that debate.
Speaking for myself only, i would have been more charitable if the request had been more transparent.
Just wanted to be clear about my personal involvement in that debate.
05-04-2010, 07:53 PM
#5
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Thank you for posting this thread, Bob, it has been more effective than I expected.
200 owners have signed up for the 911 so far. The 2002 is now only three cars short of the minimum needed to get started, and three other years are over 2/3 of the way.
To help get your year included:
Car reliability research
Original response to BruceP:
So some people are worried that I might actually earn something for the 70+ hours I spend a week?
I'm providing the results for free to anyone who participates. No other car reliability survey does this.
As for being transparent, I don't know how I could be more transparent. Plenty of companies hire people to post on forums as the general pubic. In contrast, I clearly identify that this is my site and my survey. The income sources, principally Adsense, are plain for anyone to see. I earn no income from selling data to OEMs, etc.
As for any consensus, over 58,000 people have signed up so far, none of whom have paid me anything. Nor have I asked them to pay me anything, only to provide the data I need to provide them with information.
200 owners have signed up for the 911 so far. The 2002 is now only three cars short of the minimum needed to get started, and three other years are over 2/3 of the way.
To help get your year included:
Car reliability research
Original response to BruceP:
So some people are worried that I might actually earn something for the 70+ hours I spend a week?
I'm providing the results for free to anyone who participates. No other car reliability survey does this.
As for being transparent, I don't know how I could be more transparent. Plenty of companies hire people to post on forums as the general pubic. In contrast, I clearly identify that this is my site and my survey. The income sources, principally Adsense, are plain for anyone to see. I earn no income from selling data to OEMs, etc.
As for any consensus, over 58,000 people have signed up so far, none of whom have paid me anything. Nor have I asked them to pay me anything, only to provide the data I need to provide them with information.
Last edited by mkaresh; 08-10-2010 at 05:22 PM.
05-04-2010, 08:18 PM
#6
You're being unnecessarily defensive.
First, how much you earn is not at issue. Even J. D. Power had to start somewhere. Nor do I have any problem with profit. I'm all in favour of it, actually. Nor do I have a problem with user generated commercial content. After all, that's what Rennlist is.
My problem was only with the pretense that this was altruistic. You have AdSense on there, plus a banner, plus your paid tier. As for what users 'pay' you, they pay you with their data and their input time. It seems to me that the gratitude ought to go the other way, or be mutual at the very least.
Respect for the user/contributor is kind of a cornerstone of web strategies like this. That's all I'm getting at. GL with the survey.
First, how much you earn is not at issue. Even J. D. Power had to start somewhere. Nor do I have any problem with profit. I'm all in favour of it, actually. Nor do I have a problem with user generated commercial content. After all, that's what Rennlist is.
My problem was only with the pretense that this was altruistic. You have AdSense on there, plus a banner, plus your paid tier. As for what users 'pay' you, they pay you with their data and their input time. It seems to me that the gratitude ought to go the other way, or be mutual at the very least.
Respect for the user/contributor is kind of a cornerstone of web strategies like this. That's all I'm getting at. GL with the survey.
05-04-2010, 08:27 PM
#7
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Let me know when, near the end of what has already been a long day, a group of people will be seeking to undermine what you're doing and will be claiming that you should earn nothing from it, so I can observe how I should properly respond.
I don't know what you mean by my pretense that this is altruistic. I never claimed I was doing charity here, but to be honest there is a large amount of altruism involved on my part. As I said, no one here would do what I have only or even mostly for the money. No one.
I have a great deal of gratitude and respect for those who have been helping with the survey. Especially if the gratitude is mutual. Those concerned I might earn a buck from it, even if this costs them nothing, and who are seeking to hurt rather than help, not so much.
I don't know what you mean by my pretense that this is altruistic. I never claimed I was doing charity here, but to be honest there is a large amount of altruism involved on my part. As I said, no one here would do what I have only or even mostly for the money. No one.
I have a great deal of gratitude and respect for those who have been helping with the survey. Especially if the gratitude is mutual. Those concerned I might earn a buck from it, even if this costs them nothing, and who are seeking to hurt rather than help, not so much.
Last edited by mkaresh; 05-04-2010 at 08:46 PM.
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05-04-2010, 08:43 PM
#8
Still plays with cars.
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Bruce - of course it is a business. So what? I participate in his surveys and get the info I want for free - just like anyone else who provides data. It strikes me as perfectly fair. I take issue with your comments about altruism. The way I see it, the ones who benefit are 996 owners and owners to be. Do you have a problem with that?
Secondly and this is for you too Dell - in the past some have been quite vocal about polls on this site set up by people who had trouble with their cars. Clearly, having a bunch of unsatisfied people respond would do nothing but devalue the cars. As a statistic the results would be invalid as Dell pointed out.
So, now we have a shot at finding out the truth. I doubt it is a bad as the doom-sayers believe. In fact it's possible that the 996 is a trouble free as anything else. Certainly mine was and still is in the hands of a new owner.
On the other hand if people derail the attempt we will be left with speculation and nothing else.
How bout we give this a chance?
Regards,
Secondly and this is for you too Dell - in the past some have been quite vocal about polls on this site set up by people who had trouble with their cars. Clearly, having a bunch of unsatisfied people respond would do nothing but devalue the cars. As a statistic the results would be invalid as Dell pointed out.
So, now we have a shot at finding out the truth. I doubt it is a bad as the doom-sayers believe. In fact it's possible that the 996 is a trouble free as anything else. Certainly mine was and still is in the hands of a new owner.
On the other hand if people derail the attempt we will be left with speculation and nothing else.
How bout we give this a chance?
Regards,
05-04-2010, 08:51 PM
#9
Nordschleife Master
Bob, we didn't assume he was disgruntled (at least I didn't) but rather identified once again the futility of this endeavor. I have spoken with him at great length offline so as not to bore the board with two statisticians talking shop.
I do agree that the initiative he is taking is a good one in building a DESCRIPTIVE database. What we CANNOT do is be able to run any sort of credible analysis that would lead to a causal conclusion. There are many more aspects to this that need to be understood but I won't get into them here.
As long as people understand that
1. This is a BUSINESS for him
2. This will be a repository of SELF-REPORT data from a NON-RANDOMLY SELECTED SAMPLE.
3. This data will have ZERO CAUSAL interpretation or value
ps. if you would please Bob, please elaborate what "admin approved" means and why it is necessary. Is he a small business sponsor of Rennlist that has requested this be stated to earn some sort of "seal of approval"?
I do agree that the initiative he is taking is a good one in building a DESCRIPTIVE database. What we CANNOT do is be able to run any sort of credible analysis that would lead to a causal conclusion. There are many more aspects to this that need to be understood but I won't get into them here.
As long as people understand that
1. This is a BUSINESS for him
2. This will be a repository of SELF-REPORT data from a NON-RANDOMLY SELECTED SAMPLE.
3. This data will have ZERO CAUSAL interpretation or value
ps. if you would please Bob, please elaborate what "admin approved" means and why it is necessary. Is he a small business sponsor of Rennlist that has requested this be stated to earn some sort of "seal of approval"?
+100 on this.
It has been pointed out that his effort while worthy is flawed and he refused to accept that. Just because his thread is "admin approved" does not make his efforts any more statistically valid or credible.
05-04-2010, 08:54 PM
#10
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Thanks, Bob.
I posted here in the first place because owners asked me to. I did not pay Bob or Rennlist for his approval. Believe it or not, but people sometimes do things for reasons other than money. Rennlist provided permission to post about the survey because they saw the value in what I'm doing, and Bob offered to post this thread--I did not initially request it--for the same reason. I am certainly very grateful for Bob's interest and personal involvement.
To respond to something else Bob said--there is a definite tendency for problems to be much less common than forums suggest. Unlike others that conduct reliability surveys, I don't structure results in a way that makes cars seem less reliable than they actually are. I saw this survey as an antidote to the others.
With this, I'd better go away until I've had a chance to get some sleep and de-stress. Too much else going on today. To paraphrase the air traffic controller from Airplane, I think I picked the wrong day to revisit this topic in the Rennlist 996 forum.
I posted here in the first place because owners asked me to. I did not pay Bob or Rennlist for his approval. Believe it or not, but people sometimes do things for reasons other than money. Rennlist provided permission to post about the survey because they saw the value in what I'm doing, and Bob offered to post this thread--I did not initially request it--for the same reason. I am certainly very grateful for Bob's interest and personal involvement.
To respond to something else Bob said--there is a definite tendency for problems to be much less common than forums suggest. Unlike others that conduct reliability surveys, I don't structure results in a way that makes cars seem less reliable than they actually are. I saw this survey as an antidote to the others.
With this, I'd better go away until I've had a chance to get some sleep and de-stress. Too much else going on today. To paraphrase the air traffic controller from Airplane, I think I picked the wrong day to revisit this topic in the Rennlist 996 forum.
05-04-2010, 09:04 PM
#11
The administration didn't approve my buying the porche so scr
How about a thread on stats of crashed 911's. Or a thread on guys that buy them that have never dropped an engine to work on it, changed their own oil, or thrashed a car before? Or a thread on how many guys know what aspect of downshifting gives rise to blowing gaskets or craking thinks. Then we could apply those stats to all the people taking the survey. Better have questions during the survey that point out if the participants know what they are doing. Worse yet throw all the stats out for cars that aren't original owner cars since the previous owner.....oops original owner will probably try BSing he didn't trash the car not knowing how to race a car at top rpms. Plenty of guys haven't learned from actual experience what will open the big chance of destroying their car. Might as well ask the survey takers if they have teenagers too. If so just ban them from accessing the website and throw their input away
seriuosly.
Best thing is the sooner we quit replying in this thread the sooner this thread goes away
How about a thread on stats of crashed 911's. Or a thread on guys that buy them that have never dropped an engine to work on it, changed their own oil, or thrashed a car before? Or a thread on how many guys know what aspect of downshifting gives rise to blowing gaskets or craking thinks. Then we could apply those stats to all the people taking the survey. Better have questions during the survey that point out if the participants know what they are doing. Worse yet throw all the stats out for cars that aren't original owner cars since the previous owner.....oops original owner will probably try BSing he didn't trash the car not knowing how to race a car at top rpms. Plenty of guys haven't learned from actual experience what will open the big chance of destroying their car. Might as well ask the survey takers if they have teenagers too. If so just ban them from accessing the website and throw their input away
seriuosly.Best thing is the sooner we quit replying in this thread the sooner this thread goes away
05-04-2010, 09:36 PM
#14
Still plays with cars.
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996 owners, in spite of attempts to derail this survey, I'd like you to participate. Right now conventional wisdom is that a 996 is a ticking time bomb. I do not believe that to be the truth. If we can gather enough data we have a shot at establishing a credible data base which 996 owners can point to and take comfort in.
I encourage you to ignore the doom-sayers and help prove the worth and value of the 996.
Thanks,
I encourage you to ignore the doom-sayers and help prove the worth and value of the 996.
Thanks,
05-04-2010, 09:43 PM
#15
Nordschleife Master
No attempts to derail the survey have happened. Rather people have spoken their mind and you choose to promote the same anecdotal collection method that got us into this mess.
Contrary to belief, most of us believe that this is a fantastic car and a very reliable one. Why in the world have I bought 4 9X6's and tracked 3 of them???
Nobody listens to the positive and rather chooses to listen to the negative. The negative comments about the 996 are miniscule compared to the positive reports we see here daily yet you (and others) think otherwise.
Not only do some need a lesson in statistics but a lesson in social psychology as well.
As I have said, the repository he is trying to collect is a great method to capture descriptive self-report data but NOTHING more. Not sure why you can't see that.
Contrary to belief, most of us believe that this is a fantastic car and a very reliable one. Why in the world have I bought 4 9X6's and tracked 3 of them???
Nobody listens to the positive and rather chooses to listen to the negative. The negative comments about the 996 are miniscule compared to the positive reports we see here daily yet you (and others) think otherwise.
Not only do some need a lesson in statistics but a lesson in social psychology as well.
As I have said, the repository he is trying to collect is a great method to capture descriptive self-report data but NOTHING more. Not sure why you can't see that.