Interesting Intermediate Shaft info..
03-10-2008, 12:06 PM
#16
I cannot believe that there is one new thing to say about this. Anything anyone wants to know is available by searching forums. And rehashing it again and again has a wonderful effect on Google page rank, thereby ensuring that all future buyers of 996s have the erroneous impression that the cars are time bombs and therefore should be cheap to buy.
And we want to add to all this wonderfulness a bogus poll that, methodologically, would make USA Today blush.
And we want to add to all this wonderfulness a bogus poll that, methodologically, would make USA Today blush.
03-11-2008, 02:05 AM
#17
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If you really want to see previous efforts at statistical info gathering...do a search for "Class Action"....every so often someone digs up the old issues about failures and tries to gather info....but the question is....to what end? The comment about the information being skewed is true. To me, only someone like the Auto Farm's repair records would possibly produce better statistical information since they've been rebuilding the engines for a quite some time since the warranties ran out....but again...to what end? Where is this going? Another class action? Curiosity? To feel better about the longevity of the engines? Fact is, there were failures...some that occurred more often than they should have....but we have no accurate stats about what percentages those failures represent within the whole population of the many that were produced.....only a gathering place for the stories about those that failed.
03-11-2008, 12:18 PM
#18
I had an IMS failure in my 40th Anniversary a couple of months ago at 15,000 miles, covered on warranty. This is my first Porsche which I purchased last August. Needless to say I was dissappointed. My dealer, Barrier Porsche, did a great job replacing the shaft.
My concern, which remains, is what is the cause of this. We don't know how common this is, Porsche isn't telling. If the part is underengineered we would expect the failures to be more common with failure increasing with time on the engines. From what I've read these things seem to fail early-on, suggesting that it may be a quality control issue. There is the possiblity that is something else we haven't thought about.
When this one component fails it is without much warning, catastrophic and very expensive. It is frequent enough to have drawn plenty of attention. It was mentioned to me that my shop had seen twenty or more of these fail. There should be no engineering questions about something as simple as a layshaft and it should virtually never fail. Have any of us heard of something this simple being a source of this much trouble on other modern car engines. Remember this shaft just turns the cams and is not involved directly in carrying the stresses of making power. These are not just wearing out, but failing!
For me it all boils down to this. The Intermediate Shaft is a potential "hand grenade" in our engines. Although I have been assured it doesn't reoccur once replaced, as there has been no explanation as to why this happened.
I believe Porsche should offer this:
1. Explain why these seemingly routine but crucial and expensive, non exotic, bearings fail.
2. A clear desciption of what has been done to improve the replacement part. I still don't know if the replaced shaft is really any better, beyond being informed it is "better".
When my CPO nears expiration I will have to consider if I like the car enough to continue to own it out of warranty, knowing it has the potential to unpredictably and expensively fail. Do we know of any other cars that have this record of expensive engine problems? Go page through a Corvette board for example. Do they have a similar problem persisting and repeating for years?
Maybe a class action suit is the answer. Really, these are very expensive high performance engines that have a very expensive and as yet unexplained potential for failure of what should be a routine component. Simply put, Porshe should be more forthcoming on this, perhaps extending the warranty on this component to the life of the engine.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
My concern, which remains, is what is the cause of this. We don't know how common this is, Porsche isn't telling. If the part is underengineered we would expect the failures to be more common with failure increasing with time on the engines. From what I've read these things seem to fail early-on, suggesting that it may be a quality control issue. There is the possiblity that is something else we haven't thought about.
When this one component fails it is without much warning, catastrophic and very expensive. It is frequent enough to have drawn plenty of attention. It was mentioned to me that my shop had seen twenty or more of these fail. There should be no engineering questions about something as simple as a layshaft and it should virtually never fail. Have any of us heard of something this simple being a source of this much trouble on other modern car engines. Remember this shaft just turns the cams and is not involved directly in carrying the stresses of making power. These are not just wearing out, but failing!
For me it all boils down to this. The Intermediate Shaft is a potential "hand grenade" in our engines. Although I have been assured it doesn't reoccur once replaced, as there has been no explanation as to why this happened.
I believe Porsche should offer this:
1. Explain why these seemingly routine but crucial and expensive, non exotic, bearings fail.
2. A clear desciption of what has been done to improve the replacement part. I still don't know if the replaced shaft is really any better, beyond being informed it is "better".
When my CPO nears expiration I will have to consider if I like the car enough to continue to own it out of warranty, knowing it has the potential to unpredictably and expensively fail. Do we know of any other cars that have this record of expensive engine problems? Go page through a Corvette board for example. Do they have a similar problem persisting and repeating for years?
Maybe a class action suit is the answer. Really, these are very expensive high performance engines that have a very expensive and as yet unexplained potential for failure of what should be a routine component. Simply put, Porshe should be more forthcoming on this, perhaps extending the warranty on this component to the life of the engine.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
Last edited by bronston; 03-11-2008 at 12:23 PM. Reason: typo
03-11-2008, 12:26 PM
#19
Spare yourself the stress. Seriously. Even Toyota never gave people that much satisfaction when they got nailed with a class action on the oil gelling issue. You're never going to get your 'explanation'. Never. And, for that reason, you're never going to get clear information about what improvements have been made. Given the affluence of Porsche owners (and the number of them that are probably lawyers, for that matter), if there was any hope for legal recourse it would have happened by now.
If you can't afford to keep the car, then sell it. I wish people would stop whining about this, but I doubt it with prices dropping the way they are and ever-less-affluent owners joining the club. You bought a low volume semi-exotic sports car from a company with a well-documented, long, long history of making funky engineering decisions that sometimes don't work out. (Sorry, but the M96's issues aren't the first Porsche has had, nor are they the most expensive to fix). Love it or leave it. Caveat emptor. It's not a Toyota. Sometimes even a Toyota is not a Toyota.
If you can't afford to keep the car, then sell it. I wish people would stop whining about this, but I doubt it with prices dropping the way they are and ever-less-affluent owners joining the club. You bought a low volume semi-exotic sports car from a company with a well-documented, long, long history of making funky engineering decisions that sometimes don't work out. (Sorry, but the M96's issues aren't the first Porsche has had, nor are they the most expensive to fix). Love it or leave it. Caveat emptor. It's not a Toyota. Sometimes even a Toyota is not a Toyota.
03-11-2008, 12:40 PM
#20
Burning Brakes
Bruce is right - every porsche that has come down the pike has had some sort of issue that needed resolution - 993's had leaking valve guides and SAI port clogs, early 964's had head gasket issues, SC's had the rubber centered clutch that exploded, 2.7 liter cars were notorius for weak studs, 2.0 cars had collapsing chain tensioners, etc. Of all the 911 variants issues the 996 may be the best value of all seeing as instead of expensive fix you can get an entirely new motor for what a top end rebuild on any of these other cars cost.
03-11-2008, 01:07 PM
#21
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Spoken like a presumptuous self - righteous Canuck.I pay for every car in full, title in hand, thank you. That shouldn't mean I can't come to a public forum and inquire (like others you say are whining) to see what may be common amongst owners (even the lowly poor) who have experienced failures. If there's one too many posts about this, then don't read them - stick to your USA Today subscription
03-11-2008, 01:09 PM
#22
Spare yourself the stress. Seriously. Even Toyota never gave people that much satisfaction when they got nailed with a class action on the oil gelling issue. You're never going to get your 'explanation'. Never. And, for that reason, you're never going to get clear information about what improvements have been made. Given the affluence of Porsche owners (and the number of them that are probably lawyers, for that matter), if there was any hope for legal recourse it would have happened by now.
If you can't afford to keep the car, then sell it. I wish people would stop whining about this, but I doubt it with prices dropping the way they are and ever-less-affluent owners joining the club. You bought a low volume semi-exotic sports car from a company with a well-documented, long, long history of making funky engineering decisions that sometimes don't work out. (Sorry, but the M96's issues aren't the first Porsche has had, nor are they the most expensive to fix). Love it or leave it. Caveat emptor. It's not a Toyota. Sometimes even a Toyota is not a Toyota.
If you can't afford to keep the car, then sell it. I wish people would stop whining about this, but I doubt it with prices dropping the way they are and ever-less-affluent owners joining the club. You bought a low volume semi-exotic sports car from a company with a well-documented, long, long history of making funky engineering decisions that sometimes don't work out. (Sorry, but the M96's issues aren't the first Porsche has had, nor are they the most expensive to fix). Love it or leave it. Caveat emptor. It's not a Toyota. Sometimes even a Toyota is not a Toyota.
This component should almost never fail, just wear out along with the rest of the engine. Engines can blow from hard imprudent use. Some components are understandably consumables, belts, water pumps.
A properly engineered roller or ball bearing, suitable in size for the anticipated load should last nearly indefinatly when well supplied with clean oil and operated within its limitations for load and temperaure. It is particularly distrubing that if this bearing should fail, the consequences are so severe. In the case of my car it began making noise only about half a mile from my dealer, lucky coincidence. If I have been pushing the engine at the time of failure the engine would have suffered terrible damage.
It seems that our engines come with a $10,000 or so hand grenade that may pull its own pin as standard equipment. Too bad no "hand grenade" delete option available.
03-11-2008, 01:14 PM
#23
Spoken like a presumptuous self - righteous Canuck.I pay for every car in full, title in hand, thank you. That shouldn't mean I can't come to a public forum and inquire (like others you say are whining) to see what may be common amongst owners (even the lowly poor) who have experienced failures. If there's one too many posts about this, then don't read them - stick to your USA Today subscription
If you want to get personal, bring it. Anybody who is half awake knows before they write the check for a Porsche or anything like it that they are buying more risk than they would with a mass produced car. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It just is what it is. As for the gratuitous insults, as I say, bring it. It's what people usually do when they don't have anything intelligent to offer in counter to an argument. Which does nothing for your case.
03-11-2008, 01:19 PM
#24
I can afford a Porshe, I wrote a check for it, no financing.
This component should almost never fail, just wear out along with the rest of the engine. Engines can blow from hard imprudent use. Some components are understandably consumables, belts, water pumps.
A properly engineered roller or ball bearing, suitable in size for the anticipated load should last nearly indefinatly when well supplied with clean oil and operated within its limitations for load and temperaure. It is particularly distrubing that if this bearing should fail, the consequences are so severe. In the case of my car it began making noise only about half a mile from my dealer, lucky coincidence. If I have been pushing the engine at the time of failure the engine would have suffered terrible damage.
It seems that our engines come with a $10,000 or so hand grenade that may pull its own pin as standard equipment. Too bad no "hand grenade" delete option available.
This component should almost never fail, just wear out along with the rest of the engine. Engines can blow from hard imprudent use. Some components are understandably consumables, belts, water pumps.
A properly engineered roller or ball bearing, suitable in size for the anticipated load should last nearly indefinatly when well supplied with clean oil and operated within its limitations for load and temperaure. It is particularly distrubing that if this bearing should fail, the consequences are so severe. In the case of my car it began making noise only about half a mile from my dealer, lucky coincidence. If I have been pushing the engine at the time of failure the engine would have suffered terrible damage.
It seems that our engines come with a $10,000 or so hand grenade that may pull its own pin as standard equipment. Too bad no "hand grenade" delete option available.
I AM NOT DEFENDING PORSCHE. That clear enough? All I am saying, all I have ever said, is that the pissing and moaning will not help, will probably hurt us all, and adds nothing new to the discussion. The subject has been covered to death in forums like this and in magazines besides.
Life is not a safe and certain thing. When it comes to buying a Porsche, at least you know it going in. And, again, nobody has lawyered up, and this in a country where lawyers are allowed to work on contingency. It's done. Move on. There are more important causes.
03-11-2008, 01:31 PM
#25
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What has my nationality got to do with this?
If you want to get personal, bring it. Anybody who is half awake knows before they write the check for a Porsche or anything like it that they are buying more risk than they would with a mass produced car. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It just is what it is. As for the gratuitous insults, as I say, bring it. It's what people usually do when they don't have anything intelligent to offer in counter to an argument. Which does nothing for your case.
If you want to get personal, bring it. Anybody who is half awake knows before they write the check for a Porsche or anything like it that they are buying more risk than they would with a mass produced car. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It just is what it is. As for the gratuitous insults, as I say, bring it. It's what people usually do when they don't have anything intelligent to offer in counter to an argument. Which does nothing for your case.
As for countering an "argument" - what IS your argument? That we, as P-Car owners should just grin, accepting failures, sign the check - because, after all, it's not brand specific? LOL, well, that in itself is beyond asinine, an antonym to your self-proclaimed "intelligent" offerings.
03-11-2008, 01:44 PM
#26
It doesn't matter where in the world you're from. My "case"? Hmmm..that would be that you're an ostentatious North American. pas de touche' Amigo.
As for countering an "argument" - what IS your argument? That we, as P-Car owners should just grin, accepting failures, sign the check - because, after all, it's not brand specific? LOL, well, that in itself is beyond asinine, an antonym to your self-proclaimed "intelligent" offerings.
As for countering an "argument" - what IS your argument? That we, as P-Car owners should just grin, accepting failures, sign the check - because, after all, it's not brand specific? LOL, well, that in itself is beyond asinine, an antonym to your self-proclaimed "intelligent" offerings.
I've made my position very clear and simple, it's a philosophical one, and you're free to disagree with it. But you're obviously too emotional to reason with, or to truly understand what I'm saying. Whereas you continue to have plenty of energy for insults. Which hurts your credibility more than it does my feelings.
You deserve to be happy. I wish for you a life in which nothing ever goes wrong. Failing this, I wish for you a life in which if things do go wrong, you will always receive prompt and full compensation for your suffering, and public acknowledgment of your victim status.
With warmest regards...
03-11-2008, 01:54 PM
#27
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Cauck is an insult? If using the excuse that I'm too "emotional to reason with" validates your point - so be it..I'm actually humored as I'm typing (laughter is the by-product of emotion though..).
Thanks for your well-wishes. I cordially invite you to experience some great deep sea fishing with us at end of this month in Cabo San Lucas; surely a welcomed gesture as you peer out at the snow. If you can't make it, maybe meet me in Banff in June, I've got a great friend working there until September, says the biking is first rate.
Thanks for your well-wishes. I cordially invite you to experience some great deep sea fishing with us at end of this month in Cabo San Lucas; surely a welcomed gesture as you peer out at the snow. If you can't make it, maybe meet me in Banff in June, I've got a great friend working there until September, says the biking is first rate.
03-11-2008, 02:03 PM
#28
Banned
True.
I know we love our 911s and certainly there is no car that drives, sounds, and looks like a 911. It's also true that Porsche doesn't make the most reliable cars. I have more faith in my Jeep lasting XXX,XXX miles than the 911. I find the IMS/RMS issue to be pretty silly and excuses are made because of the romanticism involved in owning one of these machines. Fine, I'm obviously cool with sippin' some of the Kool Aid.
The S2000 and the M3 had their own set of issues, but both Honda and BMW stepped up in resolving them and as such there is no IMS/RMS equivalent in the S2000, E46 M3 world. S2000 had the #4 cylinder issue early on and the E46 M3 had the rod bearing issue. #4 cylinder issue was very rare. The E46 M3 rod bearing issue was rare too and for the engines impacted by this, BMW extended the warranty by a huge margin from the original factory warranty. On forums, there aren't nearly as many posts about their failures as there are with IMS and the annoyance that is RMS.
With that said, I can totally understand bronston's lack of faith in the machine. Had I gone thru what he went thru with his engine blowing, I'd likely ditch the car myself. My car has a remanufacturered engine and that's a good thing (crazy) in this world! I'm willing to roll the dice that it's going to be healthy for the time that I own the car and being a good steward, I will take good care of it for the next gal/guy's enjoyment. But spending that amount of dough on a low mileage, "special edition" 911 only to experience a catastrophic failure is absolutely asinine so I feel for him.
With that said II, given bronston's experience, do I have less faith in the overall reliability of these M96 units? Not really. I'll take a gamble and really it's not much risk as I know that there are many workhorse M96ers out there. So for now, I'm going to enjoy that PSE/flat6 noise and not look back.
I grow to appreciate my 911 more and more. I'm learning from a lot of you guys. Many thx.
03-11-2008, 02:04 PM
#29
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I've read on IMS failures until my eyes bled
I generally agree with Bruce and expressed much the same in previous posts concerning this subject.
Regardless, it is a shame this IMS issue = a new engine for the unfortunate ones, even if it is a low percentage and that it still is.
I focus on the fact that most 996's enjoy a long spirited life w/low repair/maintenance cost. Impressive for a exotic, or say at the least semi, that just happens to be used by many as a DD. Not many like it to compare to.
This is one reason why the passion (or religion as Ben calls it) burns deep in me.
I have no warranty left on my 01 with 12K miles, could give a flying ****. A solid history, maintenance and good driving habits are more than good enough for me.
So the best might just be to accept the good and bad and enjoy it for what is, much like one does with a good woman/wife.
Global warming will probably get us way before all the IMS questions are answered, it's a money thing as usual
Soooo enjoy the warmer weather coming our way and potential new ocean front properties for the lucky ones.
I generally agree with Bruce and expressed much the same in previous posts concerning this subject.
Regardless, it is a shame this IMS issue = a new engine for the unfortunate ones, even if it is a low percentage and that it still is.
I focus on the fact that most 996's enjoy a long spirited life w/low repair/maintenance cost. Impressive for a exotic, or say at the least semi, that just happens to be used by many as a DD. Not many like it to compare to.
This is one reason why the passion (or religion as Ben calls it) burns deep in me.
I have no warranty left on my 01 with 12K miles, could give a flying ****. A solid history, maintenance and good driving habits are more than good enough for me
. So the best might just be to accept the good and bad and enjoy it for what is, much like one does with a good woman/wife.
Global warming will probably get us way before all the IMS questions are answered, it's a money thing as usual
Soooo enjoy the warmer weather coming our way and potential new ocean front properties for the lucky ones.
