Dealer Wrecked my 996
 

I brought my '03 996 cab to the dealer for minor warranty work. On a road test, the tech got into an accident in my car. The impact was to the front right portion of the car. Headlamp assembly, hood,bumper, fender, door, radiators, wheel well plastics, wires, hoses, etc. It looks like at least $10,000 in repairs. My car has approx. 16,000 miles and was perfect in all ways before the wreck. What should I do???? I would think that it's not too much for me to ask them to buy my car for at least the market value just before the wreck. What do you think?

Damn, that sucks :(

Good Luck.

Tell 'em to give you a 997. :D Seriously, I would make their insurance carrier cough up the full *retail* value of the car and buy a new car. That is a LOT of damage and while it may be fixable it will never be like it was before the wreck. If they balk, get your insurance carrier and an attorney involved.

+1

:crying:

Absolutely sucks. What has the dealer offered you to make things right? If it's just repairing the damage, I would outright reject that offer. Don't take the car back from the dealership under any circumstances. It's their problem, and they should buy your car at fair value before the wreck. Any correspondence on this should go to the owner/GM of the dealership, Porsche NA, and your attorney. Good luck - sorry this happened.

Phil

It will most likely be repaired and not totaled - which means, sorry, but they don't have to "buy" your car from you.

Make sure this is reported to their insurance carrier and have them use the right parts, etc. DO NOT let them take it do their (dealer or ins co) body shop/their own shop - ask around for a recommendation of a GREAT body shop in your area. Unless there is a dispute over liability with the dealer/or the other car involved (who was at fault for the accident??) an attorney should be your last resort.

Truly sorry to hear this. I certainly hope the dealer will make things right for you.

wrecked 996
 

The dealer offered obviously to fix it at their repair shop down the street. I, of course refused that, although I did request an estimate from them, just to have it on record. I plan to tow it out of the dealer to my buddy's body shop. Get a complete estimate, and then prepare to fight them to buy my car! By the way, the tech driving my car was ticketed for the accident.

Even if it's repaired completely, you'll have to disclose it when you try to sell it, and accident-repaired Porsches have a diminished value. Why do dealers go around the car with a mil gage to check the paint thickness when evaluating a Porsche? I would be adamant that they buy out your vehicle based on the pre-accident value, but even if they agree to do that, there's where you may have a dispute with them on the proper value. If you put enough pressure on them, they will accede to your demand to avoid negative publicity about the incident.

A few years back, a neighbor had his new C5 damaged by the dealer while in for maintenance, and they bought him a another one to replace it.

Legally, the dealer does not have to do anything except fix the car.....you can ask them to compensate you for diminished value, if you can prove that....its tough....if your can can be fixed, get it done and be done with it....have the dealer throw in a CPO warranty or something....while you car is being repaired, get them to give you a PORSCHE....not some junky rental, trust me, the GM will give you his car for a month...happened to me when the dealer hit something in my Rover...mine was a minor dent, nothing major....good luck....and keep us informed.

sell the car as is, establish the value of the car prior to accident, ask the dealer to cover the difference. this way, dim value and repair cost are all covered by dealer.

Very sorry to hear what happened. i would expect them to buy the car back at open market value. That is very reasonable and does not take into account the hassle, loss of your pride and joy etc...

Best of luck with it.

Id ask them to either give you the depreciation on it now.. or even swap another car. Or.. get them to give you a deal on a turbo :)

I agree that legally all the Dealer has to do is to repair the car. An outstanding Dealer would however take the next step and make an offer which isn't required by law, and that is to buy the car for at least KBB excellent value, private party.

I don't what everyone means by "legally." Unless there's a specific law on the books in that state explaining what a dealer has to pay for in this situation, you've got a standard tort claim.

The dealer's obligation is to make you whole - right back the way you were before he wrecked your car. In our legal system, this is measured in dollars. Whatever the car was worth before, it needs to be worth when he's done. That means fixing it and compensating you for the diminished value.

Unfortunately, diminished value claims can be complicated, and you will probably need the help of a lawyer, unless your dealer is a rare bird indeed.

Check out my fellow lawyer/car blogger Automuse. I think diminished value is her field.

CP

I like the suggestion of selling the car to them as-is at full retail. Walk away and buy another car from another dealer.

The comments about diminished value are absolutely spot on. I wouldn't touch your car now.

Diminished value is not that dificult to get paid out on. Yes, it is challenging, but you do not need to have lawyers involved. I went through this process about 3 years ago and I got paid out a more than fair amount.

After the car is repaired, get it appraised by two separate individuals. Let them know the situation. Once you have the stated lost value all you have to do is present that to the dealership's insurance company. Diminished value won't come from the dealership, only the insurance company.

PM me if you would like some more detailed information about the process I went through. Although my car was not wrecked by the dealer, I did go through the work of getting diminished value.

My advice, be patient, very, very patient. They are going to want to settle this quickly. If all else fails, contact one of your local news stations and see if they can help out. Good luck.

Ask to talk to the GM of the dealer directly and simply tell him what you want done...

Trade the car to THEM. As is, damaged. Give them the car and the insurance check. You should get top dollar, that is to say nowdays somewhere between wholesale and trade. The days of getting retail are gone but it would be a good goal.
The dealer can fix the car for WAY less than the insurance check at their inhouse rates, parts, etc. They then dump the car and come out even +/-.

You however, get the price your car was worth beforehand on a trade where they also have huge incentive to make you a good deal too.

Upside: Quick, easy, the problem is gone. You have a new ride!!

Downside: You were perhaps not even close to thinking of trading in/up.

I have personally done this. Call me 203-376-9551 cell anytime if you want.

Sorry it happened. I came out happy on my deal.

Get an attorney. This does a number of things. 1) it lets them know you mean business. 2) you won't get taken for a ride 3) you will be out of the loop (i.e., your attorney will try to get you the most he can 4) in the event you don't get what you feel you deserve, your attorney can sue.

Just my $.02.

-td

I have no value to add, just a ton of sympathy. =(

I'm no insurance expert but it seems to me there are 2 fix-it sources at work here: 1) the insurance policy, and; 2) dealer goodwill. The insurance company is obligated to compensate the loss which in this case probably means repairing the vehicle and the diminution in market value. The decision to total the vehicle is up to their adjuster. To that end probably the best thing to do is document evidence to bolster the claim. Before anything is done to the car, take photos, make notes, get the police report, get your own independent written evaluations of repairs needed and lost market value. I would be most concerned about not so obvious damage e.g. bent frame. The dealer is probably under no obligation to go beyond what their insurer must do, but for PR and goodwill, might be persuaded to "do the right thing". It's a no lose proposition to try friendly persuasion to see if the dealer will step up and go above and beyond especially if they see a future dividends (e.g. you tell all your friends on Rennlist and local PCA) about your great experience. I think it's a little premature to retain an attorney. They will probably do all those things above, which you can do yourself. IMHO the time to get an attorney is either, 1) when you reach an impasse and need to take the gloves off, or; 2) before signing something binding and are not sure of your rights. Good luck.

thanks for all the ideas.....
 

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions on the way to handle this situation. I am going to see the G.M. of the dealership tomorrow first thing to see what they are going to do for me.

Pic of wrecked 996 by dealer....
 

Pic of my wrecked 996....

another pic
 

Here is another pic...

Ouch! Sorry to see that.

Was is two separate impacts? Why is the door pushed in at the hinge? Was the wheel impacted from the side? What report of the accident did you get?

I'm having a hard time putting the photo to an accident scenario that results in damage like that.

Good luck with the GM tomorrow!

Yikes! I really wouldn't want my car back after that kind of an impact. Best of luck in your meeting with the GM.

Crash scenario.....
 

Supposedly, the tech driving my car was making a left hand turn against 2 lanes of traffic. From what he said, he was motioned by the driver of the oncoming car closest to him, to make his dangerous turn, and never saw the other car coming in the other lane, which resulted in the accident. The tech was ticketed for the accident.

Hmm. Now I see... so he was probably perpendicular to the oncoming car when it hit. I still think that door crease is odd.

As I said before, I'm not sure I'd want that back. With that kind of impact I would not be surprised by axle damage. Even if they put everything back cosmetically I'd take a bet that it will tear through tires on that corner like crazy.

The same thing happened to my brother in law 6 months ago. It was a 3 year old Toyota Tundra with approx 36K miles. The Longo Toyota dealership offered a brand new 07 Tundra and money for all of his upgrades. The driver was eldererly and mistaked the gas for the brake. He thought hes was going to have to settle for bluebook. This was with out any negotiation.

Are you the first/only owner? I hardly doubt they will offer or settle with a brand new P but I would be happy if they gave me the retail value. If you have the car fixed it will not be the same and it will be recorded with carfax etc and lowering the value of your car.

I haven't read through all posts. My guess is that they will not buy it. Legally, they don't have too. All they have to do is fix the damage they caused. Once they fix it. YOU will have to list it.

Then, when you sell it for $10k UNDER blue-book (or however much), you can then sue them for damages.

You will have to prove, by a preponderance (more evidance than not, or at least 51% to 49%) that they caused your car to be however much UNDER-valued because of the accident. These are your damages that THEY Caused. THAT will be ez to prove -- open and shut.

I think the car will also be easy to sell. Just show the buyer what happened.

Depending on the state you're in, you should be able to collect lawyers-fee's from them, as well. Do consult a lawyer.

Good luck!!

Thats 10-15k EASY in damage. I just had an accident where I rear ended someone a few months back and it was like $15k not to mention the 2k in rental car i had to use.

Life throws crap from time to time, sorry, you have stepped in crap and will be the one to deal with it. Maybe they'll help you towards a new car in the future if they trade and ignore the damage they caused.................... Good luck.

Step 1) Get them to loan you an equivalent P-car whilst this is all sorted out. No reason you should be off the road.
Step 2) Get a laywer. At least you want (a) the car fixed as good as new. (b) CPO or similar for the car. (c) dimished value recompensed. Ideally you want a straight swap for an equivalent vehicle (with them paying the vehicle tax, don't forget)

If the dealer agrees to this without too much hassle, you've got a good one - stick with him, and tell us.

if I were in your shoes...
under absolutely no circumstances would I accept a repair. Regardless of whether or not it was the tech's fault.
These sorts of things don't happen every day and the fact that you have alerted the Rennlist community that handing over the keys to this dealership comes with concern, should be enough to get these guys into "damage control" mode. They can afford to deal with a rare and unfortunate circumstance.

Whatever you are offered sleep on it. Don't make a decision right there on the spot. The same sales tactics that are use to sell cars will be used to minimize their loss here. You are in the driver's seat.

Just my general comments as a lawyer who happens to represent several car dealers:

1) In most states you are entitled to be put back whole, which means the vehicle repaired and compensated for the diminished value. The dealer knows this, you know this.

2) At this point retaining an attorney is pointless and in fact likely counterproductive. If you retain an attorney two things will happen. First, you will be spending money out of pocket because you cannot recover the costs you pay the attorney. Second, the dealer will likely punt the entire matter their counsel at that point because they will get defense and will believe at that point you are going to be unreasonable not matter what happens. What will quickly happen is the money that would go to making you happy will go to the attorneys.

3) Most high end car dealers want to make you happy. They want to sell you cars in the future and service them. Your Porsche dealer knows that guys that buy new Porsche's don't jump brands the next time they buy a new car. Talk to the dealer, explain what you feel, explain your concerns, tell them you understand that accidents happen, but you have concerns about the vehicle being properly fixed and you know that Porsche's especially take a big hit in value when they have had an accident. You would be surprised what a frank discussion can accomplish. I doubt the dealer will trade you for a new 997, but you would be surprised, they might have a 2006 997 with 5,000 miles that they would trade you for.

I have two sugggestions, FWIW:

1) Get PCNA involved. They have the clout to make the dealer take care of you.

2) Consider making a call your local TV stations adn newspapers with "Help Me Howard" type reporters who assist in sticky situations such as yours. They'll eat up the Porsche angle.

I respectfully disagree that getting an attorney is pointless, and suggest you confer with an attorney, if only for your piece of mind. Initially, I am leery of attorney advice instructing you not to get seek counsel. In fact, it may be on the verge of malpractice - as any rights you lose will be at the advice of counsel. As I see it, without knowing the law in your state, any attorney telling you it is counterproductive and pointless for you to inquire as to your rights is not sound advice.

I think you should consider the following:
1) Getting an attorney will ensure that you get what the law entitles you to - not what everyone "knows" or "thinks" you are entitled to. There are different statutory requirements by state, and without knowing what those are for your state, you cannot be sure you are being justly compensated.
Also, there are different "layers" of representation, from working in the background to "check" all offers from the dealer- to full fledged representation taking you out of the loop completely. There is no need to be confrontational, however, you should be concerned that the dealer is not going to go above what he thinks he can get away with.

2) There is no guarantee that the entire thing will not get punted to the dealer's attorney entirely anyway. Additionally, it is highly likely that the dealer's attorney already knows what has happened and is advising the dealer. If you don't have counsel (at least working behind the scenes) you are taking a knife to a gun fight.

3) It is too simple to say that you have funds "out of pocket" if you retain an attorney. True, your attorney's fees paid may not be recoverable. But, getting the solution you want, rather than a compromise solution has value. When talking about 5 figure repairs jobs, loss of resale value, negligence issues, rental cars (replacement cars) etc., paying a thousand to an attorney is justifiable in my mind.

You only get one shot at getting the right solution. I think you should at least get an initial consultation with an attorney (which should be free) to make sure what you think is "right" is what you are entitled to under the law.

Just my $.02.

-td <- just more hot air

I think its too early to get counsel on it. At least give them the chance to make it right. If they refuse, then go to the BBB. If that doesnt work, file a complaint with the state dealer licensing commision. If THAT doenst work, get counsel.

I find it really hard to belive they wont try and make it right. Hell, if they gave you a comporable car, they will jet send the wrecked on to auction anyhow.

What a mess! Sorry about that. Hopefully, as everyone else stated, the dealer will do the right thing. Giving you back the same car, repaired, should be your last choice. I would not want a car with that front end damage. You shouldn't be stuck with that either.

Good luck!

What damage?
That'll buff right out!









J/K Hope the GM will do the right thing and take care of you.

I love it. When you are an attorney and you tell someone to consult with counsel, you are a greedy shark. When you tell them to hold off and talk first, you are accused of potentially committing malpractice. :banghead: :banghead:

Running to counsel before even hearing what the dealer is willing to do is premature and a waste of time and resources. He is not bound to accept the dealers offer.

Tort law is virtually identical in all states, the victim is entitled to be put whole (or as close as possible) by the tortfeaser, nothing more, nothing less. If you can show me a state that provides otherwise, I would love to see it.

The dealer knows what their legal obligations are, they will most likely exceed them. Do you understand why? This isn't about the law, this is a business decision for the dealer and they know that they want the customer to be happy because, if he is, he will buy more cars in the future, and there is a good chance his friends will also. (was that enough of a run-on sentence). Strange as it sounds, well off guys that drive Porsche's, tend to hang out well with other well off guys that may or will buy a Porsche. In the high end dealer business, a lot of sales come from customer referrals, so they value their customers much more than say a Honda dealer, who knows their customer will buy from whatever dealer gives them the best price.

BTW, I represent several different levels of dealers, but all are large California dealers and range from those selling Korean Cars to high end German manufactures so I am pretty familiar with their dynamics.

I respectfully disagree with the disagreement - sort of. It's not that getting an attorney is pointless. It's "AT THIS POINT retaining an attorney is pointless." (emphasis added). Before all the facts are gathered, estimates made, and a preliminary offer on the table, there isn't much "meat" to discuss with an attorney. Even a free consultation will be wasted discussing "what if". I don't know the specifics but I'll wager neither the dealer nor the insurance company has counsel involved yet. They're not in the business of spending unnecessary legal fees. The dealer will file a claim, the insurer will assign an adjuster who will investigate and make a recommendation. Because the OP wasn't even involved in the accident, he doesn't even need to worry about if he was at fault. My $0.02 is not to rush to accept any deal or make confrontational demands. Wait for the hand to be dealt and then once an offer is on the table, run it by an attorney before agreeing to anything. I would also suggest not to make a lot of publicity yet. The dealer's motivation to "make it right" is to keep it quiet and not lose business. By playing the hole card too early, it pisses away the advantage.

Again, this is just my $0.02

If for some reason what you believe will happen starts to go wrong, at what point should the poster get an attorney? Are you saying that we should "trust" the car dealers because you represent them? Sounds a little biased...

IMO, "well off guys that drive Porsche's" shouldn't have a problem shelling out a few hundred to get a second pair of eyes on this - even if it's during the "I need to sleep on this" period.

-td

wrecked 996
 

First of all, My best friend is an attorney who is very knowledgeable on this issue. His advice to me was to allow the dealer to get an estimate from their body shop. Then I would take the car to my body shop, (25+years using body shop) for another estimate. Once I have the dealer's final proposal, if I am not satisfied, that is when we go ball's to the wall after the dealership. By the way, this dealership happens to be one of the largest luxury car dealerships in Miami.

How did the meeting with the GM go today?

meeting w/ 3 managers...
 

After today's meeting with 3 of the dealerships manager's, I don't feel any better about the situation. I told them what I wanted and they told me what they want to do for me. Basically, repair the car and give it back to me. I absolutely refused that suggestion and demanded to be made "whole". Apparently, no one in the meeting had any authority to deal with me. I allowed them to get an estimate from their body shop. And am awaiting a phone call back from the "real" GM. I will keep you informed....

Hmm. That does not sound promising. Well, as others have said, these guys do have a vested interest in keeping you happy. Escalate it up the chain and don't let underlings waste your time.

You have now twice misconstrued what I have said. At no point did I imply that he should "trust the car dealer." What I said (see if you can understand it this time), was that it was premature to go to an attorney and make this an adversarial discussion, especially given he did not have any information as to how the dealer wanted to deal with this.

Quit looking at this thing as a litigation. Litigating a case like this will cost at least $20,000 per side, a cost neither side wants to bear. Dealers like to avoid litigation if at all possible because they tend to lose, even if right. Often they will, before even handing the case over to counsel, pay more than they legally owe to avoid getting involved in a litigation.

To give you an idea, the last case I defended for a dealer (and they are actually pretty rare they get to this level), the dealer forgot to disclose previous damage to demo vehicle. The guy had the vehicle for 18 months and had put 40,000 miles on it when he discovered the pre-existing damage. The dealer had offered to purchase the vehicle back from him for the purchase price + tax he had paid for it. He refused and filed a lawsuit instead.

So what am I saying. Dealers for the most part try to resolve things because it is in their best financial interest.

I don't know if it is a large dealer chain, but tell them that you would like to speak with the Owner since the Managers they have are apparently unable to reach a resolution. If they won't let you speak to the owner, tell them you are only going to deal with whoever has the authority to fully resolve this matter, you are not going to waste time going through three layers of managers who can't decide. If necessary, this is the time to pull out the card that if they cannot accommodate this request you will have to go consult with counsel, something you would prefer not to do if it isn't necessary and something they don't want.

Just to add one more point here. This is not a great case to take to trial. Regardless of whether it would be a jury or bench trial, it will be seen as some rich guy with a Porsche is whining because the dealer wouldn't do more than fix his car. This will do a lot to, if not fully, shift the tactical advantage most consumers have against dealers away.

go right up the chain.... the REAL GM and or the OWNER . Hell... Id call "Action News"... If the real GM doesnt come through.

Tire shop in Cleveland had a guys P car....trashed it.
Case went to court.....the shop had to buy the guy a new car. Period. This is a tire shop that had an employee joy ride the car......


So, go for it. They need to get you a new car.....


Try to get a good lawyer. Go for a judge, not a jury...

JB

Gittledog -

Sorry for your pains. That's a huge bummer. I would be pissed and sad at the same time.

In Portland, I found that Sunset Porsche's body shop is the same one I use, and was the highest recommended one I could find. So, their shop may not be so bad afterall. Check around on it. The body shop should guarantee their work for life, so they'll be on the hook if they do a shoddy job, and if their highly recommended I would be surprised if their work isn't exceptional.

As far as diminished value, I'm going through this right now. So far I haven't brought it up to the insurance company as I'm being Mr. Nice Guy through the whole repair process. Once the car is done I've got two independent appraisals lined up for the loss in value and I'm going to submit it to the insurance company for payment. I won't sign off on the closing of the claim until they pay. In fact, they issued me the check for the repairs almost a month ago and I haven't even cashed it - not going to until the car is complete and I'm happy. I know it's hard, but think of it as business. That's what they are doing on their end, and you've got to be that way on your end. Good luck. Keep us updated...

It sounds like they're giving you the standard car dealer bull**** - "I want accept your offer, but I have to check with my manager."

That's why I think you should consult with counsel. I don't want to get in the middle of the hot air war about lawyers, but a local attorney will know the landscape - the particulars of the state consumer laws and the nuances of Florida motor vehicle and tort law.

It is to everyone's advantage to work this out without litigation (which is really expensive) but only to the dealer's advantage to work this out without lawyers at all. They will lie to you and overbear your will. That's how car dealers make their money.

CP

wrecked 996
 

Spoke to Dealership today. Here is their proposal. Fix the car. Repair estimate was for about 6k. (I suspect much more damage than they are telling me, at least 10k) "Once the car is fixed, we can talk about a possible trade-in." I said absolutely not. I mentioned the diminished value of the car to which they said it's going to be very hard to determine diminished value, if any.
I am supposed to meet with the owner of the dealership tomorrow. If I am not satisfied with his final word, I am going to have to get legal help. Not to mention the local media, BBB, etc.....

Sorry to hear about your woes with the dealer. Just by looking at the pics, I'd say there was more than $10k worth of damage. The fender was mashed and the door got tweaked. I would suspect frame/unibody damage as well.

As for dealing with the dealer, I took the gloves off when they were screwing around with me and one of my friends. They got slammed by bad PR and from my attorneys. I had the dealership manager quivering whenever he saw me. He called me later and said, "Let's talk." Btw, it was not a Porsche dealership.

The dealer more than anyone understands what diminished value is, and that there will be plenty of diminished value if/when they just repair your car. Try trading the car in to ANY dealer - paint is fresh, car was in a crash, no thanks. Porsche will never certify a crashed car, so the dealer would have to wholesale the car out. The difference between wholesale and retail is your diminished value, I bet!?

Don't settle for a $6k bandaid. They F-d up your car, they need to give you a car that isn't F-d up. Period!

I feel for you. It sure sucks. I hate to admit it but I have wrecked many cars over the years. Yours looks worse than it is. It is completely repairable and if it is done correctly you will never know. They are going to bolt on a new fender, and any damaged supports, bumper skin, door skin, and likely a new hood. Insist that all damaged panels be replace and do not allow them to use body filler. Inspect the work as it is being done. keep in mind that the car was bolted and welded together in the first place and it can be stripped back to the unaffected panels and rebuilt again. Race cars get bumped all the time and are rebuilt back to spec.

I would settle for a repair done to my standards and a CPO warranty just because you can get that without to much hassle.

If it makes you feel better my good friend's 01 Cab was moved by the film crew that rented his house for a commercial last month. The underling who moved it didn't know how to drive a manual and parked it in the living room. $30,000 damage to the car and they are still fighting about the house. BTW, he is an attorney and just expects everything to be fixed because in life **** sometimes happens.

It sounds like you are handling things just fine. It sucks to have to run around in circles for the dealer to hear you, but as we all know dealers still just dont get it.

I hope you can sit down with the owner and have him see the lost that you have incured. It's not that your looking to take the owner to the cleaners; its just that you want to be fairly compensated.

People and companies make mistakes, I wish some could see that and do the right thing instead of hiding behind others

Good Luck

+1

I totally agree!

Hmm. Singing a different tune. Hindsight and all that...

-td

Has anyone ever told you that you are an obnoxious prick? Seriously, you are. The tune didn't change, the problem is your reading comprehension is at about a third grade level. Try going back and re-reading what I posted, then see if you can understand it.

I mentioned the diminished value of the car to which they said it's going to be very hard to determine diminished value, if any.

Unfortunately that statement alone, especially the "if any" remark, would really hurt the credibility of the GM. Over the years I have seen many Porsches on Dealers' lots with only cosmetic damage, and the Dealer refused to make the repair until after the car has been purchased. The reason is that they are concerned that there are very many astute Porsche buyers who would detect the repair and then demand a huge discount. So Porsche Dealers, at least in my area are very aware of diminished value.

This Dealer's attitude reminds me that there are lots of bad businessmen operating car Dealerships. If I were the GM I would want to get this resolved as quickly as possible, and would offer the owner KBB excellent on a tradein and sell him any car on my lot for Dealer's cost. This would be my initial offer and we could negotiate from that point forward. I would at all costs avoid getting lawyers involved unless the owner made ridiculous demands.

So now it appears that lawyers will get involved, and the potential for negative publicity with untold financial impact on the Dealership's business is likely. When I read a story like this one, all I can do is to shake my head and think what can the GM be thinking.

They absolutely know there is dimished value. They are just playing hardball.

For what's it's worth, here's a picture of my '00 C4 from last month. Total cost thus far is $9k. Of that, the Litronic headlight part is $3k.

Damage includes new bumper, hood, both fenders and both headlights. Nothing structural was damaged.

And if a good shop is doing the work you will never be able to tell that it was wrecked. These things happen that is why we all have insurance.

You can tell. A paint tool will tell that there has been painting. Welding that has been done will show different beading/welding than factory welding. For something like a broken headlight you may be ok, or a bumper respray, but 10-15k in damage, and a good body shop can tell.

+1

First, Sorry about the car. I think that you shouldn't have to compromise on your repairs. There is a happy middle ground, but I don't think it is simply getting the car back looking "new."

Second: Now you have to use that attorney trump card, and good thing you have an experienced friend in this field. There is nothing like saying, "please refer all your future correspondence to my attorney." And then watch from the peanut gallery.

Lastly, the dealer wants to make things right, but right to him and right by you are not in the same ballpark. I agree with Carpundit in that only the dealership wins by not having counsel involved. You need someone on your side willing to advocate your position to the fullest.

Like Chris Rock said, "sure you can do it [yourself], but that doesn't mean it's to be done."

-td

Yes. Yes. No. No. Oh. Did I hear a plonk ;)

-td

Apologies in advance for the long post, but I want to add my two (or ten) cents here in hopes it will help. This free legal advice is worth exactly what I'm charging for it, so take it for what it's worth. I'm sure other attorneys on this board have different views, and I do not hold this out as authoritative. But hopefully this will help in your negotiations.

That looks like a lot more than $6K in damage to my untrained eye. I banged up the front of my car far less than that, and the repair was north of $5k, with no headlight replacement required. I think the dealer is low-balling you.

I am not sure what specific laws apply in your state, but I doubt there are any statutes that apply to this specific situation. You should read the invoice/estimate forms provided by the dealer when you took your car in for the initial work in order to determine if there are any specific terms or conditions that apply. I just looked at the back of a repair invoice for my car from a Porsche dealership, and it says "said property is not insured or protected to the amount of the actual cash value thereof, or otherwise, against loss occasioned by theft, fire or vandalism while the property remains with the dealer." The fact that "negligence" is not listed as a non-covered event is significant, and suggests that it is covered.

Unless a specific law is in place, general principles of negligence will likely dictate the outcome. Simply put, the dealer is responsible for all of the damages that were "proximately caused" by the negligent conduct of its employee. They can't really argue they aren't liable, so they are trying to chisel you on how much they will have to pay. I think most judges would consider the reasonable damages in your situation to consist of repair costs, rental car for the period your car is unavailable, and diminution in value damages to the extent they can be determined to any degree of specificity. Unless there is a specific law in your state that gives you a right to recover your attorney's fees in a dispute of this nature, negligence claims generally do not provide for any such award (at least here in California).

With this background in mind, here's what I would do:

1. Take the car to at least two reputable body shops in the area that have experience with high-end vehicles. Have them give you written quotes for the repair. You don't have to take the dealer's word for it as to how much damage has been done.

2. Take the car (or pictures of the car) to other Porsche dealers, both new and used, and ask them to tell you how much they would sell the car for at retail, fully repaired, under the assumption that the crash and repair will be known to potential buyers. It may be difficult to get commitments as to a specific value, but you're likely to get a range. Some dealers might also give you an estimate of how much a prior crash hurts resale value (i.e., 10%, 20%). An alternative would be to hire an auto appraiser, but I don't know if any are available in your area.

3. Research sale prices for similar vehicles (i.e., same year, make, model, and options) in your area to determine the market value of an uncrashed car (i.e., clean carfax).

4. Go back to the owner of the dealership with a specific demand. I would tell him that he could either pay me X dollars to cover the damages (repair, diminution in value, rental car), or accept the car in trade for a vehicle on his lot that has a value consistent with the uncrashed value of your car (survey their lot to determine if there is a car in your range that you would accept). I don't see how you can force him to buy the car from you, but offering to take a car off the lot gives the dealer an option to just paying a bunch of dough. And I think that negotiations always work better when you have specific dollar amounts and demands at issue.

If the dealer balks, then go get a lawyer. But I agree with the other posters that this is not a case you'd want to try before a jury. I also wonder whether there is much negative PR exposure here, as I don't think most "consumer reporters" care too much about Porsche owners.

Hope this helps and good luck.

Spoke with owner of dealership today....
 

Finally, after many phone calls and visits to the dealership, I received a phone call from the owner of the dealership that wrecked my 996. I got basically the same answer from him that I got from everyone else below him. "Sorry, but it was an accident, accident's happen." He still insists on having his body shop do the repairs and then and only then would he even consider a possible trade-in. Oh, and he also told me that I was acting like his 15 yr. old daughter. Is he kidding me!!
By the way, my car was flat-bedded to the dealership for the initial warranty work and I never signed any dealership paperwork. Is this a good thing? Also, the tech that wrecked my car was ticketed for the accident. So he was negligent.

Unreal... Acting like a 15 year old girl :eek:

Now it's time to F'm

Time to consult the lawyer.

Also get advice on the suggestion about causing him some bad publicity by going to the local media.

Sorry to hear that he was a jerk.

:grr: get a loaner 996..Let your 15yr old daughter run it into every freakin thing you can find on the lot...Do they havd an RS? Can you Say Porsche Bumper Cars?

ok.. Im just kidding. In no way do I imply or advise you to do this(Disclaimer, disclaimer.)

OUCH! Despite other "advice" to the contrary, I think you should consider having an attorney on board at this point. I know your friend is competent in this field - but I suggest you venture out and retain someone else (this will prevent any bruises on your friendship if things go bad). You can still use your friend as a backstop - and he may be able to refer you to someone good.

Also - what state are you in? There might be an attorney or 2 that has some knowledge in your location - or at least the ability to do some quick and dirty research.

Best of luck,

-td

thanks for all the ideas.....
 

Thanks for all the help. I live in Florida. Are there any specific laws that I should be familiar with?

Is it possible to let us know the location of this dealer?

Despite TD being a prick, I believe he is now correct that it is time to go ahead and meet with/retain counsel. Yes it was an accident, yes accidents happens, but in the majority of states 1) you have the choice of where to have you car repaired, and 2) you have a right to be put back in the position you were before the accident, which includes diminished value.

Obviously here, the attitude of the GM's runs straight down from the owner. It is a shame, as it is really stupid for them to go down this path. If he had offered what you are entitled to, that would be one thing, but basically they are telling you to go pound dirt.

You need to establish what your legal rights are in your state, and if you have the choice of where to have the vehicle repaired, start by taking it there.

Don't even talk to them any more - you're wasting your breath.

Get your insurance company to talk to their insurance company direct - leave the dealership out of it.

Your insurance company will be able to move things along far more quickly with the professionals at the other insurance company - and in turn they'll be leaning on the dealership real fast, trust me!

Your insurance will also know where you stand regarding using a body shop of your choice, diminished value, etc etc.

And get a lawyer - and have him notify the dealership that he's retained on your behalf.

It's time to stop burning your own time, and use the professionals.

I would have my attorney unleash the hounds of hell on that dealership. Also, internet forums are great at spreading the word of such incidents. ;) As for getting your own insurance company involved, I'm not sure if I would do that as they aren't responsible for what transpired and neither was the vehicle owner. It would speed along the repair, but may muddy the waters with another party being involved.

Yep - but if he's not getting any where - that's part of what you pay your insurance company to do for you!

They would 'in theory' pay for all repairs to your satisfaction and then subrogate against the dealership (and hence their insurance company) for their money.

And when it's their money at stake - they'll be working damn hard to get it back.

Now if the dealership were reasonable, he wouldn't have to go down this route - but the signs are pretty clear, dealer is prepared to play hardball and even resort to some name calling.

Name of dealer: nothing wrong with telling us the name of the dealer, as long as you're sure anything you've said about them is absolutely true. You don't want a business libel suit. Also, you may want to keep it confidential for now so your counsel has it as a bargaining chip later.

Lawyer: get one. If only to sit down with him for an hour or two and lay out the facts. He may tell you to go through your insurance company. He'll have to read your policy (as you should).

Good luck, and keep us posted.

CP

Involving your insurance company (but not necessarily filing a claim at this point) sounds like a good suggestion. I did the same thing when I had a minor fender bender on the highway: I didn't file a claim, I just notified them of the incident. I ended up recovering without using my insurance company, but since they were aware of the incident, if the other guy didn't pay, my insurance company would take care of the car. After I was paid, I called and closed the ticket with my insurance company.

Also, as I understand it (from some web research), you should keep in mind that you are in a first party position with your insurance company (i.e. direct contract) so anything you get will be under the terms of your contract - which might not have dimished value. If you fight the dealership directly - they are not related to you, so you have full recovery under tort law. Both have upsides and downsides. And I'm still of the mindset that you should have counsel so that you can be fully informed before you make a decision.

-td

probaly the best suggestion yet. I also wouldnt let THEIR body shop fix it. They have too much involved and id bet money they will shortcut the repair. Your not obligated to have THEM do the repair. Id take it to another shop, and file it with your INS co, then your INS will collect from the dealer.

I would find the BE$T (ie: most trusted PCA enthusiast type) repair place in the area, and have the car brought to them. If you have to fix the car, don't let the dealer's place do it!

Don't count on CARFAX. My ML320 suffered $13,000 in damage when an old lady t-boned it in a parking lot. Entre right side replaced (b-pillar crushed, pretty major repair). Traded it in after it was very expertly repaired. Just for kicked I check CARFAX a year later. Nothing about the crash appeared. If I do not see a WRECK on CARFAX report that does not mean much to me at all. When I DO see a WRECK.. that's good info. Like the '97 WB I almost bought untilI found it had been salvaged in '99 then it was dismantled after another total crash in '02. Never seen a car that had been totaled twice. Looked sweet too, drove like a nightmare.. no wonder.

Sorry, that's steering off-topic.

Sorry to hear about the crash. It's been a few days, I'm only on page 2 so hopefully I'll next read about a good outcome.

"... he also told me that I was acting like his 15 yr. old daughter."

This alone warrants a full bend over job, lots of hair pulling and no lube. Go get 'em.

This whole thing makes me so mad. I know how I would feel if a dealer put a ding on my car! :banghead:

John - How the hell have you been? Looooooong time no see! It's great to have you back here again! I have missed you and your humor! :cool:

Like Val Kilmer said in the movie Real Genius "You get even with Kent. It's a moral imperative" but in your case not Kent, of course, the dealership.

Sweet comeback!

So, not only is he a poor business man, he's also a crappy parent. I think the name of this dealer should be placed at the top of EVERY post so that this thread a quick find when people run a GOOGLE search... hopefully the first one.

for us Florida Pcar owners please post the Dealership.

Would that be "Sh*t Happens Porsche"!? :grr:

This is pretty simple. Your car was worth X prior to wreck. Someone else wrecked it thus making it now worth Y even after repair. He owes you Z which is the difference. I would get an attorney involved posthaste, and I would not sign, authorize any repair, allow them to touch the vehicle, and I would no longer even speak to them. All correspondence should go through your attorney at this point. It will cost you some cash, but much less than the long run and at this point there is a matter of principle which is always important to me. Hell I would pay an attorney 5 k to recover 3 if someone ****ed up my car and told me i was acting like a 15 year old girl. If I didn't beat the **** out of him I would most certainly hit him the ass pocket like I was his daddy that is for certain. I would make every single day of his pure misery with litigation and bad publicity in front of his shop until he had to make me go away to my satisfaction.

This is a very interesting thread about a very unfortunate circumstance.

I have spent much of my career advising clients on business deals (no I'm not a lawyer), and also am a business owner that has had to deal with situations quite similar to this. Lots of great advice being given here, and I especially agree with a lot of what "cary1" has said. There is a time for litigation and pulling the gloves off, but you never want to start from that angle. From my experience, the best solutions by far are ones where both parties can negotiate in good faith towards a "win - win" situation, one in which both sides give something and get most or all of what is best for them in return. If you start by pulling the gloves off or making threats, things get emotional, egos get involved, and you are highly unlikely to get a "win - win" result, ever.

In this case, a good solution would have been for the dealer to take your car at a reasonable pre-crash value in trade for something else. They lose a few dollars maybe, but save face, and keep your business. If the owner of the dealership knew what was best for his long-term success, he would eventually offer something like this. I say "eventually", because most people don't like to give away anything if they don't have to. It seems that this owner is not a reasonable or mature individual. His "15 year old daughter" comments are very telling.

So now what to do? I would resist the temptation (and I know it's tempting!) to escalate this into nuclear war too quickly. Stay reasonable and calm, try to find good legal counsel for a reasonable cost, and slowly ramp up the heat. It's still better to see if you can settle this in your favor without a big legal bill, lots of wasted time, and especially without going to court (one of the best attorneys I ever knew said wisely "you NEVER want to go in front of a jury unless you have to, because jurors are inherently unpredictable").

You can dial the heat up a notch by referring your dealer to your counsel. If that doesn't work, you can proceed with the first legal steps he advises. If that still doesn't work, there are lots of creative ways you can enjoy slapping the owner around like going to the local news channel or listing the dealership name on this board.

Best of luck with all this, and kudos to all the people on this board who have taken time to help. Proof that lawyers aren't all bad after all!

[QUOTE=FotoVeloce]Don't count on CARFAX. My ML320 suffered $13,000 in damage when an old lady t-boned it in a parking lot. Entre right side replaced (b-pillar crushed, pretty major repair). Traded it in after it was very expertly repaired. Just for kicked I check CARFAX a year later. Nothing about the crash appeared. If I do not see a WRECK on CARFAX report that does not mean much to me at all. When I DO see a WRECK.. that's good info. Like the '97 WB I almost bought untilI found it had been salvaged in '99 then it was dismantled after another total crash in '02. Never seen a car that had been totaled twice. Looked sweet too, drove like a nightmare.. no wonder. QUOTE]

I hit a deer last year with my STI (I bought it brand new and it happened 2 weeks of ownership) and the insurance got the $3500 bill. My wife's Jeep CRD had a small rear fender bender and costed $1500 to repair. STI's carfax was clean when I sold it and the CRD had a "small to moderate" damage with Carfax.

Carfax does not alway catch insurance claims but if it does, it will prompt questions/uncertainties about the damage and unless the seller is willing to negotiate it may be a deal breaker.

Oooo, nice move sir! :thumbup:

Very nice! Well done! I can't wait to see how this one goes. :thumbup:

Yes, now things get interesting. I'm sure there are a few of us Rennlisters who would be more than willing to call either the dealership and express our sincere concern over how they are handling this matter and/or one of the news shops down there expressing our concern about how the dealer is treating you and that perhaps they should interview them.

If we had their fax/email info we could also pursuade them that way as well.

Could a few hundred phone calls/faxes/emails every day for a few weeks convince them?

:corn:

Very well played.
:biggulp:

Good luck.

I put this on the blog , so be sure to let us know what happened.

thanks everyone....
 

Thanks to everyone supporting me with my situation. Especially Carpundit.....

[QUOTE=Giovanni]In some states CarFAX has access to the police reports databases and is able to provide information on whether an accident was ever reported for a vehicle. As an example, in WA here, if there's a police report of an accident, it will appear. I believe the same is true of CA based on the VINs I've checked recently.

You do not get a sense of the size of an accident just that one was reported. The police case number shows, so I suppose you could look it up.

As always, I advise that CarFax is a tool; and one of many available to a used car buyer. It should never be the only tool.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!! I am extremely surprised, shocked to be more precise, that it is the Collection who is involved. I have purchased three P-cars from them including my current C4S, and I have always praised their customer service. This is not a small town dealership here. They not only sell P-cars, they sell Ferarries, Audi's, Jags, Austin Martin, Lotus, and Maseraties all in the same dealership!! This dealership is large and it REALLY SURPRISES me of their approach to this situation. I am also shocked of the owner's response to you.

I do not think they have their own body shop though. There is a body shop down the street called "Countach" that I know they use. If they use this body shop and if its any consilation they are one of the best around. I agree with most of the posts that they should make you whole. This should be nothing for them to fix your car and either buy it back from you or let you trade for another with no money out of pocket.

Please keep us informed of the outcome since it might effect my future dealings with them.

Good luck!!

Wonder if you can email the story to CNN? :evilgrin: They like 'light' fluff like that.

Not that you have to, but if the dealer knew this it might help a fellow rennlister out.
:thumbup:

I would most certainly do anything I could to help anyone in this position. It could be me next time since I take my car there for service.

Surprised by The Collection...
 

To be honest, I am very surprised of the way I am being treated at The Collection. I have known of The Collection for many years. As a child, my father would take me there on a regular basis to purchase all types of cars. He probably bought close to 100 cars from them. Mostly Ferrari's and Porsche's. He practically kept them in business during the 80's. My father had many friends in the community as well that bought from them. All high dollar cars. I never thought in a million year's that The Collection would treat a customer this way. Especially one who's car they wrecked.

100 cars? Thats alot

...so, the guy in question is Ken Gorin, president of The Collection. Here's a photo. He's the one on the left.

Yes that's him
 

Yes, that is the owner of The Collection.

I was hoping to find some nice images to play around with photoshop, but didn't turn up much.

He's the one that made the "15 year old" comment?

Maybe we can photoshop him onto the body of a 15 year old. :)

UH OH :eek:

Looks like it going to get uglyyyyyyyyyy :thumbup:

I think we should have our old friend Bengi or what ever his name was, call this guy and let him know what we do to his type :evilgrin:

Sean Bannerjee... that might just have been the warm-up act compared to this guy. :thumbup:

Ken Gorin....
 

Yes, Ken Gorin is the person that made the comment about me acting like his 15yr. old daughter.....

Digg it...

http://digg.com/offbeat_news/Florida...d_Doesn_t_Care

I think that link needs to hit VWvortex, the BMW site and other car enthusiast sites, as the Collection effects alot of people, and they need to be in the know.

How do I get this on Google??
 

Can anyone help me get this on Google?? I would love for it to show up below The Collection's website.....

Hhahahha, me likey all this

Don't forgot to add the condition of the car before the accident and the low mileage.

Just a heads up. My car was parked in front of my house and hit by a drunk driver. the damage looked much like yours. At first the shop fixing it thought the damage was relatively minor in spite of the looks of it, but AS THEY WORKED ON IT the damage was much worse than expected. The impact telegraphed through the car and it cost over $13,000 to repair. You can't go by an initial estimate.

Carpundit and Hamilton - Nice job on helping a fellow Rennlister.

Gittledog-Good luck. We are all hoping for a happy ending. Be cautious and take some of Palladio's advice.

Wellardmac- You are just evil....in such a good way:)

TheCollectionSucks.com is available. lol

Is there public parking fronting the dealership? If so, you could always park your 996 in front with the damage. Just have a large posterboard inside the car with a statement about the how the dealership handled the situation. Same tactic used with cars that are lemons.

Let's do a Sean Bannerjee with this thread.

this is on the front page of their site...

""Welcome to The Collection, South Florida's foremost luxury automotive dealership specializing in Audi, Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati, Aston Martin, Jaguar and Lotus. As you tour our interactive web site, please keep in mind that all of us at The Collection are 100 percent committed to providing the highest level of customer service available. So make yourself at home and enjoy your visit to The Collection, where exceeding customer expectations is priority number one."
- Ken Gorin, President"

Ha!

my wife had an appointment at the collection to get her A4 serviced. i told her about this thread. they just called her to confirm her appointment and she said that she was aware of the "996-that-had-been-wrecked" situation and that she wasn't going to be using her appointment at a dealership that treats their customers that way.

also - i'm a network news photographer. personally, i wouldn't bother contacting the nets - maybe the local stations - but the nets won't touch this. even to the locals it'll seem a bit "this poor guy had his little porsche wrecked...what a whiner" kinda thing. i wouldn't expect much sympathy from 'civilians'...i think rennlist and the other online forums are the place to turn up the heat.

(i really hope 'lister Firehawk99 wasn't involved in this...)

Hm, so the problem you are having, is with The Collection in South Florida which is a Porsche dealer. A mechanic at The Collection wrecked your Porsche. I can't imagine how mad I'd be if someone at The Collection crashed my Porsche. All I could think about would be

collection, porsche, crash, florida, won't help, mean, derogitory, porsche, ferrari, audi, bad, mean, bad, crash, wreck

It would be horrible for a bunch of pages like that too appear on free websites like Yahoo and link them back to this thread... and the blog. Good thing for THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS nobody here would do that.... now.. would they? :typing:

Awesome!! :thumbup:

So I guess this is Ken Gorins 15-year old daughter?

http://www.socialmiami.com/socialeyes/images/JMF14.jpg

THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS THE COLLECTION THAT WRECKS CARS
collection, porsche, crash, florida, won't help, mean, derogitory, porsche, ferrari, audi, bad, mean, bad, crash, wreck collection, porsche, crash, florida, won't help, mean, derogitory, porsche, ferrari, audi, bad, mean, bad, crash, wreck collection, porsche, crash, florida, won't help, mean, derogitory, porsche, ferrari, audi, bad, mean, bad, crash, wreck collection, porsche, crash, florida, won't help, mean, derogitory, porsche, ferrari, audi, bad, mean, bad, crash, wreck collection, porsche, crash, florida, won't help, mean, derogitory, porsche, ferrari, audi, bad, mean, bad, crash, wreck

I added and entry to my blog as well.

OH.. did I mention that the number of times a site is searched for in Google, it pushes it's search result number to the top? So.. if you were to search for this thread on Google, say.. every 10 seconds... with the words 'The Collection' tossed in there... well.. hm.. let's just say the results can be interesting... :icon107:

Also ran a Technorati search on my blog, which links back to this soo hopefully that should drive some of the geek traffic this way.


collection, porsche, crash, florida, won't help, mean, derogitory, porsche, ferrari, audi, bad, mean, bad, crash, wreck

I just sent them an email saying that I would like to look at/purchease a 997 they have for sale...I said that I might fly over there to look at the car and gave them my Phone# as soon as they contact me I will turn them down mentioning this incident....I hope this helps them realize how important is good customer service....

Did you say that the staff at The collection in Florida crashes customers cars!?

I think I read somewhere the Collection in Florida crashes customer's Porsches !!

So you are saying they have a crash collection? Not the type of car I want to buy.

I'm surprised that Ken Gorin, the owner of "the Collection", the dealership that crashes your car while you wait, admitted that his own daughter has more common sense than him.
And secondly, I guess he means they wrecked her car as well and she complained about it?
Makes me wonder how many cars "the Collection" in Florida have wrecked so far?

:roflmao:

Hey.. did you know you can post hot topics here on Technorati? http://technorati.com/wtf/ WTF.. seems like a perfect place to talk about this.. I mean.. if someone where so inclined to post about Ken Gorin, the owner of "the Collection", the dealership that crashes your car while you wait,

this is my favorite

Is that Ken Gorin or Ken Groin?!

Ken Gorin looks like the type of Collection Dealership owner who would crash someon's Porsce and not make it right. It also looks in my opinion like he may have a touch of pedophilia and an Anna Nicole fetish. I also surmise from the photo that like his mechanics he pays his girls by the hour.

Depreciation !

Based on the service you've received at The Collection, I know I won't be buying any future auto's them.

I just went to their website and read Ken's statement about customer service. Based on your dealings, I felt inclined to send them an email. Below is a copy of it.


"I see in your opening web page Ken Gorin, president, has stated that "...The Collection are 100 percent committed to providing the highest level of customer service available.."

I'm a bit disturbed by this statement after reading about the treatment one of your customers is receiving after your technician wrecked his 996. Is telling him that he is acting like a 15 year girl really your idea of customer service?"

I've released the hounds - I started a thread on this in OT.

Also if you go here:

http://www.thecollection.com/contact/

You can send them a message. Here's what I wrote ( I used my in-law's info in Naples ):

I used the website form this morning (after I blogged it via DIGG and Technorati) to ask their service department if I can get my car crashed for free next time I come in for service, or if they charge extra for that. I'm still waiting for the service quote.

:roflmao:

:roflmao:

:roflmao:

On it....

Just sent them a nastygram myself.

Ken Gorin's # @ The Collection
 

If anyone would like to express their feelings about my situation to Mr. Gorin, his # is 305-476-2004. His assistant's name is Linda.

This is hilarious but I sure hope there isn't another side to this story.

Wouldn't it be horrible if Mr. Gorin was signed up for everything under the sun? How terrible would it be if someone were to post an ad in the local coral gables newspaper with a very underpriced item that would garner alot of calls. I'm glad noone here would do that. :nono:

Personally I dont see why anyone in a position like his would sign up for things at playboy.com or other sites like that.

Believe it or not, it's true
 

Believe me when I tell you I have not posted anything about what has taken place @ The Collection regarding my 996 that is not true.

From those photographs, Mr Gorin appears to have a pedophilic taste. I guess he's under the illusion that he is still 18 and full of life.

OP, sorry about your story. I would try to have them buy it back for KBB or edmunds rated value + any extra options. I'd be wary of a trade-in since you don't know the history of the 'new' car - especially when it's coming from them !! The known devil is better than the unknown devil.

Then I'd take that money and shop ELSEWHERE for another Porsche. Perfect time for an upgrade perhaps ;) ?

Get legal council too. And most importantly, please chill. It's just a car and granted it's $$$ too. But you'll get out of it, so don't stress too much. Life is far too nice to let these things really 'get' to you. You'll do a great job handling this with a cool, calm mind. 'nuff of 'advice' !!

Cheers!

details please !

I can't believe someone would do something like this:
http://miami.craigslist.org/car/324356278.html

soooooo shocking! :roflmao: :burnout:

:roflmao:

You have inspired me.. Im starting a website called auto dealer complaints dot com. it will be up tomorrow. Im soo tired of hearing about this stuff, so lets do something about it.

I have my IT department putting it up now. I have about 4 cases so far to post up in the last few weeks.

Dave

This is all funny, but gittledog loses the high ground if people start a campaign of harassment. I strongly recommend everyone discontinue the craigslist/magazine subscription/ad hominem stuff.

The dealership seems to have acted badly. Don't do anything that makes them seem like the victim.

agreed. Thats why Im putting up a "BBB/consumer complaint " type of site that has some credibilty and can be a more formal process.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

see pictures of the wrecked dealership car here: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/349371-the-collection-coral-gables-wrecked-my-porsche.html

Things like this are why I keep a lawyer on retainer. 5 cars totaled in 6 years by other people and i have never seen a bill from him either. I just call him, give him the details, tell him what i want the outcome to be and it's taken care of.

Had a car wash break a window on a car. Week later it was in getting an entire new interior & dash/electronics, that was one of the better ones too!

I am not looking to harass the dealership. I would just like to be put back where I was before the accident. No better, no worse. I do not approve of the craigslist ad either and would like it removed..... :)

Yeah, harassment will just make them dig in their heels and make like difficult for you. It's a delicate balance of promising trouble, without actually delivering that works best.

Be careful what you are all saying and doing or you can all be sued! This would leave gittledog (the person you're trying to help) in a much worse position.

Let's look at the facts. They said they would fix your car, right? That sounds reasonable to me. Find the highest quality body shop and get it done. So what's the problem? Diminished value? If someone on the street ran into your car, would you get the same value from their insurance company + diminished value? I don't think so. What makes this different? They said it was an accident, what do you want them to do? If you honestly work together to solve the problem and come to an agreement, then great. If you're still not satisfied, then proceed with an attorney, BBB complaints and the like.

But be careful and don't let all these people on here to ruin your credibility by doing illegal or inappropriate things.

Yes, actually you would. Either through one of the insurers, or through a lawsuit.

As for the dealer's actions, he is not acting illegally at all. Just badly. It is lousy customer service to say anything in that situation other than, "We wrecked your car. We're sorry. How can we make it up to you?"

I agree with you that everyone should be careful not to libel this business.

CP

While libel is not the desired affect, I do personally appreciate folks "spreading the word" - this is the benefit of a social network and it should be leveraged. If not for the purposes of putting pressure on, certainly for the purposes of dispersal of public information. I mean, knowing what you know now of this situation, would you buy a car from these folks? I certainly would not. I personally believe that most would feel the same. I find gittledog's requirements more than reasonable.

And by the way - even though I live in NJ, I bought my car from a dealer in Atlanta - so knowing about this kinda stuff outside of one's own region is important.

Excellent points..... I hearby place myself on probation. I hope they turn around and make it right. They did offer to fix it afterall but it sure sounds like the offers still far short of reasonable or expected, or at least hoped.

This dog is retired to the pound.

The story is already on Car Pundit!

http://carpundit.typepad.com/carpund...a_porsche.html

Nice! :burnout: :burnout:

Diminished value.....
 

The dealer did not tell me that there was no diminished value on a wrecked car. He said that the diminished value would be hard prove. Sorry for the confusion. I am looking forward to next week.......

Looks like you're getting a lot of support from the gang here.

Hope it works out. Keep us updated.l

In my dealings with insurers/claims handlers, diminished value is very, very hard to prove on a car unless it is less than a year old. That is not to say value isn't diminished, this is just my experience through customers of my shop and former employers. That being said, Porsche owners/buyers are truly a different breed. The shop where I worked before opening my own referred all porsche owners to me, before that they usually sent them elsewhere. Not so much hard to please, just need to establish expectations. A competent shop could repair this car no problem, but a trained eye will always be able to tell. Best bet is to trade the car in wrecked, add in insurance money and make a deal with them for a replacement car. If the value "isn't diminished", the dealer should have no problem taking it on trade. If the dealer handled this quickly and fairly they would have had a lifelong customer/fan instead of this mess. Btw, I would look for a shop that uses fixture based equipment for structural repairs such as Cellete. This ensures the car is returned to proper specs. This may be hard to find in smaller markets but should be available in a large one like Miami. Good luck.

gittledog,

im beginning to keep a record of this stuff for people who are buynig high line cars.. would you mind posting a summary (cut and paste) here:

http://www.autodealercomplaints.com/

Dave

That looks like a great start to a very good website. Thanks for putting time into creating such a place. It could prove to be very useful in the future. :cheers:

Thanks.. I buy cars all the time from dealers all over.. it would be nice to know who im dealing with(or who to stay away from). I think it will be an asset to the web given some time.

gittledog, best of luck to you in getting full restitution

You know about dealerrater.com, right?

Frankly I'm not surprised that its the collection. I was tempted to speculate when you first posted based on my own bad service experience with them back in 1998 when I use to live in Miami. Based on that experience I never took my Porsche back to them for service or anything else.
Needless to say I wish you best of luck resolving this issue.

bump

Dear Rennlist Forum Members,



I am Ken Gorin, president of THE COLLECTION in Coral Gables, Florida. It has never been our practice to discuss our customers publicly. However, since Mr. Gittlemen has opened these discussions, I felt it best to respond.



THE COLLECTION prides itself in providing its customers with the highest level of customer service. Client care is, and always will be, our number one priority. We recognize that the situation with Mr. Gittleman was unfortunate and have swiftly taken the necessary steps to ensure his satisfaction in the resolution of this matter. The same day of the accident, the claim was reported to our insurance company. The car was promptly and professionally appraised by the insurance company’s adjustor and our insurance company has agreed to pay for both the needed repairs and diminished value in this regrettable accident. In addition, we wholeheartedly encourage Mr. Gittleman take his vehicle to the body shop of his choice.



Most importantly, we are thankful that there were no personal injuries as a result of this accident.



It is unfortunate that certain members of this forum have seen fit to make personal attacks against myself and my daughter. These comments are outrageous, hurtful, unwarranted and defamatory. We will not publicly respond further to these attacks. Instead, we will stand behind our outstanding reputation as one of this country’s preeminent luxury automotive dealerships.



Ken Gorin, President

THE COLLECTION

Welllllll.... Seems that words travel fast. IF indeed that is Ken writting the msg I am glad to hear that they are stepping up to the plate.

Best of luck

Frank

Nobody has stepped up to any plate yet....

but has he or hasn't he agreed to pay diminished value?

Guys,

I buy all my cars from the Collection. The reason, their GREAT service. Although the situation is unfortunate, it does sound like they are making it right. The Collection's reputation is superb as is Ken's.

Before continuing to degrade an otherwise superb dealer and it's officer, I suggest that we wait until the final outcome before making a decision.

Just my $.02

Marcelo

crashed porsche
 

Mr Gorin, What steps were taken to ENSURE Mr. Gittlemans satisfaction? All I can see is steps that the dealer took to cover their butt. The question should be, is the customer satisfied? I am sure that compairing him to your 15 year old daughter doesnt give the customer the sensation of satisfaction. From Mr. Gittlemans post I get the impression that it was you that decided to bring the subject of your daughter into the argument. Any mean or hurtful things said about her are directly related to you bringing her up in your conversation with Mr. Gittleman. The right thing to do would be to buy the car for the amount it was worth the day Mr. Gittleman drove onto your lot. Back in the day The Collection was known for being run by thugs and drug dealers are you trying to regain that "thugish" reputation?

See the letter here:

The forum rules will not allow new members to post photos or links. The letter on company letterhead is hosted on the photobucket website. Search for "thecollectionlotus" then click on view album. The letter is the first image in the album.

Here's the letter:

what's the big deal? Pay the guy for wrecking his car ASAP.
by the way,
NOT ONE PERSON IN PORSCHE WORLD will pay for a car that has been wrecked no matter how good it looks in the 'after' picture without a STEEP discount.

This is mind boggling, to risk so much potential future business over the loss of one car really makes anyone think twice about visiting such a business.


p.s.
You should be fired for comparing one of your customers to a 15 year old girl.
Has anyone forwarded this to the Porsche Club of America?

Ken,

Welcome to Rennlist....

After reading both this thread - and Ken's post/'note - I'm guessing there is not much more to be said. If Ken would like to contact me in person, he can do so by emailing my admin account at admin@rennlist.com with his contact information.

This thread is closed - and I WILL EXPECT TO BE CONTACTED AS TO HOW THIS WORKS OUT FOR BOTH PARTIES, IN PRIVATE.

If it is not worked out - this thread will be re-opened.

Have a wonderful evening,

John D.