Comparison: 2002 C4S vs. 2006 Cayman S
07-24-2006, 05:01 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by JimB
. I don't care what Top Gear says, the Cayman is the better sports car.
also - jeremy clarkson has hated porsche for decades
the review by tiff needell on fifth gear was much more pro cayman
and since i would much rather put my faith in a drivers review by tiff......
07-24-2006, 05:03 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by P-Car fanatic
Nonsense
I've had a boxster and my current car is a C2
I drove my car and a cayman s and a new 997 carrera s back to back - my new ride will be a cayman s
i could go out tomorrow and buy a 997 turbo for cash, and getting a turbo was supposed to be my ultimate upgrade path but after driving the cayman and the new carrera that I thought would be so brilliant, the only reason I personally would get a 911 would be out of necessity for the two rear seats.
some of your comments make you sound like a poser, liking a car for the image and marketing rather than the substance and engineering behind it.
I've had a boxster and my current car is a C2
I drove my car and a cayman s and a new 997 carrera s back to back - my new ride will be a cayman s
i could go out tomorrow and buy a 997 turbo for cash, and getting a turbo was supposed to be my ultimate upgrade path but after driving the cayman and the new carrera that I thought would be so brilliant, the only reason I personally would get a 911 would be out of necessity for the two rear seats.
some of your comments make you sound like a poser, liking a car for the image and marketing rather than the substance and engineering behind it.
People really don't want a 911 they want every other p-car
Nice, Call me what you want. It's just MO.
07-24-2006, 05:24 PM
#48
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I think to look at this analytically you need to separate the platform from the current versions/drive-trains.
As a platform, the 911 has some advantages over the Cayman. The Cayman has some advantages of it's own. The 911 has rear seats, a roomy cab and a huge and loyal fan base. It has one big disadvantage. It's engine is located such that it has very poor weight distribution. Porsche has spent many years learning to overcome this problem but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Again I would point out the Carrera GT used a mid-engine platform. So does the Porsche LMP2 race car. So did the legendary 962s and 917s. Every time Porsche is free of the 911 stigma it puts the engine in the middle.
The Cayman platform is clearly better for building a great sports car. I'm not sure how anyone can dispute that.
The question on whether the marketing department will ever let them take advantage of the platform by matching it with a suitable drive-train remains to be seen.
I would love to see a Cayman cup car and a strong enough street car to run in ALMS GT2 and Grand Am Cup. It the Ferrari having it’s way in GT2 maybe there’s a chance.
Just my thoughts.
Jim
As a platform, the 911 has some advantages over the Cayman. The Cayman has some advantages of it's own. The 911 has rear seats, a roomy cab and a huge and loyal fan base. It has one big disadvantage. It's engine is located such that it has very poor weight distribution. Porsche has spent many years learning to overcome this problem but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Again I would point out the Carrera GT used a mid-engine platform. So does the Porsche LMP2 race car. So did the legendary 962s and 917s. Every time Porsche is free of the 911 stigma it puts the engine in the middle.
The Cayman platform is clearly better for building a great sports car. I'm not sure how anyone can dispute that.
The question on whether the marketing department will ever let them take advantage of the platform by matching it with a suitable drive-train remains to be seen.
I would love to see a Cayman cup car and a strong enough street car to run in ALMS GT2 and Grand Am Cup. It the Ferrari having it’s way in GT2 maybe there’s a chance.
Just my thoughts.
Jim
07-24-2006, 05:30 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by JimB
I would love to see a Cayman cup car and a strong enough street car to run in ALMS GT2 and Grand Am Cup. It the Ferrari having it’s way in GT2 maybe there’s a chance.
07-24-2006, 08:16 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by P-Car fanatic
totally agree
also - jeremy clarkson has hated porsche for decades
the review by tiff needell on fifth gear was much more pro cayman
and since i would much rather put my faith in a drivers review by tiff......
also - jeremy clarkson has hated porsche for decades
the review by tiff needell on fifth gear was much more pro cayman
and since i would much rather put my faith in a drivers review by tiff......
He has, but his attitude improved with the 996. He now begrudgingly praises and respects them - even though he thinks their design is terrible. :
07-24-2006, 08:27 PM
#53
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Doug&Julie
First of all, I'm talking about new(er) Porsches, not older ones. That 25 year old Carrera has gone up and down in value so many times, and it's likely to go up and down again. There was a time (fairly recently) that 25 year old Carreras were selling for well under $20k. I know. I bought one. (..two, in fact).
Secondly, in terms of percentage, newer 911s do lose their value as quickly as other Porsches. I gave you the numbers (in percentages). In fact, if you consider that after spending $45k on a Boxster tha is now worth $20k ("losing" $25k), you have actually made a better "investment" than spending $70k on a 911 that is now worth $30-35k (losing $35-40k!). If you loaded up the Boxster, your loss is greater. But so is the loaded up 911.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful here. We clearly have a different definition of "depreciation". I see your point...ultimate bottom dollar. But I'm trying to compare apples to apples, at least as much as one can when comparing a car that costs $45k to a car that costs $65-70k. To do that we need to talk percentage, not ultimate bottom dollar.
Secondly, in terms of percentage, newer 911s do lose their value as quickly as other Porsches. I gave you the numbers (in percentages). In fact, if you consider that after spending $45k on a Boxster tha is now worth $20k ("losing" $25k), you have actually made a better "investment" than spending $70k on a 911 that is now worth $30-35k (losing $35-40k!). If you loaded up the Boxster, your loss is greater. But so is the loaded up 911.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful here. We clearly have a different definition of "depreciation". I see your point...ultimate bottom dollar. But I'm trying to compare apples to apples, at least as much as one can when comparing a car that costs $45k to a car that costs $65-70k. To do that we need to talk percentage, not ultimate bottom dollar.
The following data (apples to apples) was obtained from Edmunds.com and applies for the 1999 model year, which in my mind provides a good length of time for depreciation (smooths out the massive 1st year depreciation and looks more fairly at a longer term) and is a fair car to car comparison.
I looked at three models.
Base Boxster, retail in 1999 = $58,000
Base Carrera, retail in 1999 = $65,030
Base Carrera Cabriolet, retail in 1999 = $74,460
According to Edmunds.com those same cars are now valued as follows (private party value):
Base Boxster = $18,154
Base Carrera = $29,574
Base Carrera Cabriolet = $34,454
That represents the following % loss in value:
Base Boxster = -68.9%
Base Carrera = - 54.6%
Base Carrera Cabriolet = -54.5%
You didn't state where you got your numbers from, but I did and they are verifyable and correlate with my personal experience.
It's plain and simple, the Boxster, for the 1999 model year has depreciated significantly more both in a dollar and a percentage basis.
Now, the data speaks for itself and I've said as much as I'm going to on this. To me opinion isn't worth much unless it's backed by data. I've backed my opinion up with verifyable data.
07-24-2006, 08:34 PM
#54
Originally Posted by JimB
I would love to see a Cayman cup car and a strong enough street car to run in ALMS GT2 and Grand Am Cup... Just my thoughts.
Jim
on equal Power the Cayman platform would walk it.
07-24-2006, 08:38 PM
#55
Drifting
Originally Posted by oreganet
Base Boxster, retail in 1999 = $58,000
Base Carrera, retail in 1999 = $65,030
Base Carrera Cabriolet, retail in 1999 = $74,460
According to Edmunds.com those same cars are now valued as follows (private party value):
Base Boxster = $18,154
Base Carrera = $29,574
Base Carrera Cabriolet = $34,454
That represents the following % loss in value:
Base Boxster = -68.9%
Base Carrera = - 54.6%
Base Carrera Cabriolet = -54.5%
.
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/pr...ster&trimid=-1
07-24-2006, 08:59 PM
#56
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[QUOTE=perfectlap]you will NEVER see an ALMS race hosting two different road cars from Porsche.
QUOTE]
Durning a transition you would. Like this year in IMSA where you have two classes. One for 996s and another for 997s. I agree not for the long term. However I have no hope whats so ever that the Cayman will replace the 997 Cup Cars and RSRs. The Porsche 911 is one of the great brands of all time. They are not going to give that up. I wouldn't either.
Where did the Cayman RSR pic come from? Is it racing somewhere?
QUOTE]
Durning a transition you would. Like this year in IMSA where you have two classes. One for 996s and another for 997s. I agree not for the long term. However I have no hope whats so ever that the Cayman will replace the 997 Cup Cars and RSRs. The Porsche 911 is one of the great brands of all time. They are not going to give that up. I wouldn't either.
Where did the Cayman RSR pic come from? Is it racing somewhere?
07-24-2006, 09:04 PM
#57
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by arr0gant
I have NO idea where you are getting your numbers from. They are WAY off. In 1999 a "base" Boxster is 41k. Facts? hmmmm I can argue with YOUR facts!!
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/pr...ster&trimid=-1
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/pr...ster&trimid=-1
As I said, I got my numbers from Edmunds.com. I think they know about pricing.
At least I quoted where I got my numbers from and didn't use unspecified sources.
Assuming that the $41K is corect, that puts the Boxster depreciation into the -55.7% range, closer to the numbers Doug has quoted.
07-24-2006, 09:33 PM
#58
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by P-Car fanatic
totally agree
also - jeremy clarkson has hated porsche for decades
the review by tiff needell on fifth gear was much more pro cayman
and since i would much rather put my faith in a drivers review by tiff......
also - jeremy clarkson has hated porsche for decades
the review by tiff needell on fifth gear was much more pro cayman
and since i would much rather put my faith in a drivers review by tiff......
...and the subject of Jeremy Clarkson hating Porsches, he had an article published yesterday sort of singing the praises (well, as close as he gets to singing the praises) of the 997 turbo.
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/art...0019_2,00.html
07-24-2006, 09:41 PM
#60
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Originally Posted by JimB
I would love to see a Cayman cup car and a strong enough street car to run in ALMS GT2 and Grand Am Cup.
Jim
Jim