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Missing water pump blades

 
Old 06-29-2019, 12:31 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Porschetech3 View Post
I have been told that , but haven't seen it "officially" in print from Porsche, so I take it with a grain of salt. What's also interesting is I was told revisions always start with 00, why on earth would Porsche need/ want to revise an M96 water pump 57 times?
I found that confusing as well, didn't think there would have been 57 revisions. Also the revision numbers jump as well it's not an exact sequence.

Maybe someone who works/has worked in the parts department can clarify!

Although it's probably not of interest to anyone but you and I! Haha
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Old 06-29-2019, 12:55 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by dan_189 View Post
I found that confusing as well, didn't think there would have been 57 revisions. Also the revision numbers jump as well it's not an exact sequence.

Maybe someone who works/has worked in the parts department can clarify!

Although it's probably not of interest to anyone but you and I! Haha
Right!! Inquisitive minds want to know! Porsche knows the allure of their " mistique" so probably do these things on purpose.
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Old 06-29-2019, 11:18 PM
  #33  
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Here is some pictures of the water pump that was taken off a few years ago. It has the brown plastic impeller, turns good, no broken blades, appears to be OEM supplier, has part number but no revision number, has 17w08 stamped on the pulley, has 007090563 cast on the back. I busted it apart just to see what it looked like on the inside. I think with the screens installed this Boxster will only get new pumps from now on AFTER they leak, the screens will catch the blades
brown plastic impeller

part number 996 106 101 but no revision number

bearing came out intact, you can see the bearing seal still in place. of course the plastic impeller and large thick seal behind the impeller broke to pieces when I drove the shaft out

lifted the bearing seal, black thick grease, bearings turn smooth, no rust.plastic bearing cage holds the roller apart

007090563 09 cast in the back side of the pump

17w08 stamped in pulley
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Old 06-29-2019, 11:51 PM
  #34  
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Wouldn't just putting a -12AN dry sump pickup strainer/filter in the main line to the radiator help with the little stuff?
And keep the radiator from getting plugged with schrapnel? Canton and others make them,, they flow gallons per
second.. and have a fairly tight mesh. cant imagine the coolant would bother them, stainless strainer..
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Old 06-30-2019, 03:16 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by pdxmotorhead View Post
Wouldn't just putting a -12AN dry sump pickup strainer/filter in the main line to the radiator help with the little stuff?
And keep the radiator from getting plugged with schrapnel? Canton and others make them,, they flow gallons per
second.. and have a fairly tight mesh. cant imagine the coolant would bother them, stainless strainer..
I really wanted to catch the stuff before it goes into the engine passages where it can block a passage into the cylinder area or one of the passages around the exhaust valves in the head. Anything smaller than .125 there isn't going to be enough of them to stop up a radiator, I think they will find a non-critical area to rest in. If you look at his picture below, you will see a big round welch plug in the oil sump area. This welch plug is where the coolant flows from the right side of the water pump, down then over to the bank 2 case half. There is some dead space/non-critical area there that small debris can sit. There is also some dead space at the flywheel side of the engine behind the 2 bolts cap/plate on the case coolant passage. Lots of places small debris can sit without causing any problems, I just want to keep it out of critical areas and from blocking a smaller passage.

The large round welch plug is sealing off the unused part of the coolant passage that comes down from the right side of the water pump, then crosses over to the bank 2 case.
Photo courtesy of Millennium Technologies

If you have a source for a stainless steel fine mesh about .125 that is welded not woven, I would love for you to share it. I have some screens made for my other cars, but haven't installed them yet..

Last edited by Porschetech3; 06-30-2019 at 03:34 AM.
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Old 07-01-2019, 07:30 AM
  #36  
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This maybe what you're looking for....https://www.mcmaster.com/wire-cloth
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Old 07-01-2019, 04:38 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by jumpy chunky View Post
This maybe what you're looking for....https://www.mcmaster.com/wire-cloth
Same problem as other sources, the fine mesh is woven not welded...
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Old 07-01-2019, 08:53 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Porschetech3 View Post
There was a big thick seal behind the impeller, but there was no lubricate that I could see in the bearings, there was also a lot of surface rust which should never be in there.I'm thinking there were never any lube in the bearings, or very little.

stacked a few roller back in

couldn't get any of the ball bearings back in

the heart of the water pump

First thing I wondered too about the grease, I bet you had a faulty one with almost none or zero grease.

I wish there was some way of easily adding a grease port to the water pump bearing. Be nice peace of mind to add some grease every oil change.
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Old 07-02-2019, 05:07 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Porschetech3 View Post
I really wanted to catch the stuff before it goes into the engine passages where it can block a passage into the cylinder area or one of the passages around the exhaust valves in the head. Anything smaller than .125 there isn't going to be enough of them to stop up a radiator, I think they will find a non-critical area to rest in. If you look at his picture below, you will see a big round welch plug in the oil sump area. This welch plug is where the coolant flows from the right side of the water pump, down then over to the bank 2 case half. There is some dead space/non-critical area there that small debris can sit. There is also some dead space at the flywheel side of the engine behind the 2 bolts cap/plate on the case coolant passage. Lots of places small debris can sit without causing any problems, I just want to keep it out of critical areas and from blocking a smaller passage.

The large round welch plug is sealing off the unused part of the coolant passage that comes down from the right side of the water pump, then crosses over to the bank 2 case.
Photo courtesy of Millennium Technologies

If you have a source for a stainless steel fine mesh about .125 that is welded not woven, I would love for you to share it. I have some screens made for my other cars, but haven't installed them yet..
I see what your after,, now it makes sense,, I was just thinking of trapping whatever is in the system, Your trying to stop it if the pump fails


BTW the other option is to get a cheap jewellery/dental spot welder and just weld the edges ,, the screen your looking for should be available as calibrated filter/sifter screen used to size small abrasive and test it to spec. it comes in 4" and 6" squares, google aggregate inspection screens. I haven't bought it in a long time but used to make carburetor baffles out of it. The other way to lock the screens is to use a piece that larger than you need, mark it with a sharpy and silver solder the mesh outside the line, then trim with scissors. Just leaving the edge. You can add a thick(er) wire during the soldering process if it needs to be more rigid.

Last edited by pdxmotorhead; 07-03-2019 at 03:12 AM.
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Old 07-02-2019, 10:07 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Porschetech3 View Post
Same problem as other sources, the fine mesh is woven not welded...
That site does offer welded mesh. Called formable in the description. The smallest opening available is .218 or 5.5 mm. You could use the .286 size and overlay one piece on top of another and off set the openings. Welding smaller mesh may be too difficult to manufacture. Not sure..
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Old 07-02-2019, 06:29 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by pdxmotorhead View Post
I see what your after,, now it makes sense,, I was just thinking of trapping whatever is in the system, Your trying ot stop it if the pump fails


BTW the other option is to get a cheap jewellery/dental spot welder and just weld the edges ,, the screen your looking for should be available as calibrated filter/sifter screen used to size small abrasive and test its to spec. it comes in 4" and 6" squares, google aggregate inspection screens. I haven't bought it in a long time but used to make carburetor baffles out of it. The other way to lock the screens is to use a piece that larger than you need, mark it with a sharpy and silver solder the mesh outside the line, then trim with scissors. Just leaving the edge. You can add a thick(er) wire during the soldering process if it needs to be more meat.
Originally Posted by jumpy chunky View Post
That site does offer welded mesh. Called formable in the description. The smallest opening available is .218 or 5.5 mm. You could use the .286 size and overlay one piece on top of another and off set the openings. Welding smaller mesh may be too difficult to manufacture. Not sure..
Both of these options would undoubtedly produce a more substantial catch screen, but would be more difficult to make and require some tedious work to make. My old eyes are just not up that much small work,lol, I have to wear two pair of magnifier glasses for such things, and still end up with eye strain.

A fiberglass mesh product is generally known to be high strength,resistant to antifreeze (ethylene glycol, propylene glycol) and motor oil, and is temperature resistant to boiling water (212F). It can be engineered to even greater strength, or to higher chemical resistance to harsher chemicals/acids, or even extreme high temps(900F+). Y'all have me second guessing my choice of fiberglass mesh, so I have sent a technical request to the maker for reassurance of the particular mesh I choose. I may want to make another selection for the fiberglass mesh. The .125 fine fiberglass mesh with the .250 welded wire backing was just so easy to work with compared to what it would take to secure a woven stainless fine mesh or the stacked/offset the courser mesh to catch debris in the .125 range.

I do appreciate the input as I will be making and installing these on my other engines as the opportunity arrises..I simply don't like the fact that a simple water pump bearing failure can cause a cracked head and end up disassembling the engine, when even a newish OEM pump is not immune.
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Old 07-02-2019, 09:16 PM
  #42  
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I simply don't like the fact that a simple water pump bearing failure can cause a cracked head and end up disassembling the engine, when even a newish OEM pump is not immune.[/quote]

This! I had a brand new Peirburg wp fail after only 1000km. Luckily I noticed it was weeping out the bearing and swapped it out.
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:16 AM
  #43  
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I've been considering going to a davies pump, used them on race cars before,, rock solid temperature control,
more complex, but easy to monitor for function. I seriously dislike the reverse thermostat design,, may be perfectly
acceptable to german engineers, but its counter intuitive that putting the thermostat at the return end of the loop is a good idea.
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:39 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by mattie_k View Post
I simply don't like the fact that a simple water pump bearing failure can cause a cracked head and end up disassembling the engine, when even a newish OEM pump is not immune.
This! I had a brand new Peirburg wp fail after only 1000km. Luckily I noticed it was weeping out the bearing and swapped it out.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately the m96 has many design peculiarities that have little margin before failure; and they also have a habit of cascading into secondary and tertiary problems that are sometimes worse.
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Old 07-03-2019, 05:21 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by mattie_k View Post
I simply don't like the fact that a simple water pump bearing failure can cause a cracked head and end up disassembling the engine, when even a newish OEM pump is not immune.
This! I had a brand new Peirburg wp fail after only 1000km. Luckily I noticed it was weeping out the bearing and swapped it out.[/QUOTE]
Good catch, glad you caught it before blades started to dissapear in the engine !!

Originally Posted by pdxmotorhead View Post
I've been considering going to a davies pump, used them on race cars before,, rock solid temperature control,
more complex, but easy to monitor for function. I seriously dislike the reverse thermostat design,, may be perfectly
acceptable to german engineers, but its counter intuitive that putting the thermostat at the return end of the loop is a good idea.
The Davies Pump is definitely an interesting option, you could remove the thermostat and the WP impeller (or just the problematic blades), if there was a good warm-up strategy, would be a nice option. Although installation space is a Premium, and it wouldn't pass the "stock appearance" test , I'm sure the 120 amp alternator could handle the extra amps.

Yes the thermostat being on the inlet side just doesn't seem like a good idea to me either. It's not just a German thing, I have seen that arrangement on domestic cars also, and they seem to have more temperature related problems than the conventional designs..
EDIT:Ccome to think of it the domestic car I was thinking of was the 60degree v6 Ford, but it was actually designed in Cologne Germany, so it may very well be a German thing !! I can't think of any other right off that has the thermostat on the return/inlet of the engine.

Originally Posted by Chris(MA) View Post
This! I had a brand new Peirburg wp fail after only 1000km. Luckily I noticed it was weeping out the bearing and swapped it out.
Unfortunately the m96 has many design peculiarities that have little margin before failure; and they also have a habit of cascading into secondary and tertiary problems that are sometimes worse. [/QUOTE]

Very true, but there are also some very high quality material and processes that should equate to a very long lasting engine, provided the pesky little failures that can have a domino effect are avoided, but I think a lot of these are the results of poor control of quality. High quality material and processes also require high consistency !!
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