Notices
996 Forum
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by: LN Engineering

2019 Engine Rebuild Comparison RND/FSI/EBS/Vertex

 
Old 05-01-2019, 11:27 AM
  #46  
wsrgklt
User
Thread Starter
 
wsrgklt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 103
Default

Charles Navarro Thanks so much for your expert input here. My hope was that posting this comparison would help me to refine it.

Originally Posted by Charles Navarro View Post
I would also like to clarify that on the RND engines, new intake lifters are fitted except with variable lift (Variocam Plus) intake lifters, where those are inspected for wear and cracks, and replaced only if necessary, and at cost.
I've updated the RND section of the spreadsheet with this info.

Originally Posted by Charles Navarro View Post
RND does also offer direct plating for certain m-codes where the cylinders are less prone to failures, so that would be a cost savings.
This is very interesting. The RND site states "Select models including the Cayenne S and Turbo V8, Panamera V8, and 9A1/9A2 engines feature Nickies Lite direct plating process." I assumed that statement excluded all 996 engines. Can you elaborate on which M96/97 engines can be plated?[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Charles Navarro View Post
I also would to point out that in Vertex's price, new sleeves and pistons are not included. If you read their website closely, it says the pistons are checked and re-ringed. Anything beyond that costs more.
I have an email from Vertex where they say they will include sleeving at the price listed on the website if I ship my engine to them for rebuild, rather than an exchange. The site has a giant picture of a JE piston with the statement "JE Pistons installed" but looking further down at the parts list, you're right that it only includes rings. I have an email out requesting clarification.
wsrgklt is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 11:28 AM
  #47  
wsrgklt
User
Thread Starter
 
wsrgklt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 103
Default

Originally Posted by Charles Navarro View Post
As far as seats, with these engines the intake seats on the 3 chain heads are the ones that are known to come loose and cause catastrophic failures. We replace them on RND rebuilds as well as the guides. Exhaust seats usually do not need to be replaced.

Valve springs are checked and replaced only if needed.
I've updated the spreadsheet to reflect this info.
wsrgklt is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 11:50 AM
  #48  
Charles Navarro
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Charles Navarro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Momence, IL
Posts: 1,087
Default

Originally Posted by wsrgklt View Post
This is very interesting. The RND site states "Select models including the Cayenne S and Turbo V8, Panamera V8, and 9A1/9A2 engines feature Nickies Lite direct plating process." I assumed that statement excluded all 996 engines. Can you elaborate on which M96/97 engines can be plated?
2.5, 2.7, and 3.2 models. Blocks get resurfaced to correct for runout on the deck, which is usually at least .002". Blocks are also pressure tested both before and after plating and are honed to our specifications and go through our strict QC processes like all other Nickies receive.

I have an email from Vertex where they say they will include sleeving at the price listed on the website if I ship my engine to them for rebuild, rather than an exchange. The site has a giant picture of a JE piston with the statement "JE Pistons installed" but looking further down at the parts list, you're right that it only includes rings. I have an email out requesting clarification.
It's not even an M96 piston they show, FWIW.
Charles Navarro is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 12:11 PM
  #49  
85eurocarrera
User
 
85eurocarrera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Minnetrista, Mn
Posts: 315
Default

Great thread!

I appreciate the professional analysis, thank you!
85eurocarrera is online now  
Old 05-01-2019, 12:45 PM
  #50  
turbogrill
User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Austin
Posts: 189
Default

So the RND rebuilds doesn't offer the 3.4 -> 3.6 conversion? I was under the impression this was a no brainer that had no impact on cost. Just benefits!
turbogrill is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 12:53 PM
  #51  
Charles Navarro
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Charles Navarro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Momence, IL
Posts: 1,087
Default

Originally Posted by turbogrill View Post
So the RND rebuilds doesn't offer the 3.4 -> 3.6 conversion? I was under the impression this was a no brainer that had no impact on cost. Just benefits!
Correct. We just do stock rebuilds that are fully improved with Nickies, IMS Solution, ARP hardware, etc. for those who want a bulletproof stock replacement engine.
Charles Navarro is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 07:15 PM
  #52  
turbogrill
User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Austin
Posts: 189
Default

Originally Posted by Charles Navarro View Post
Correct. We just do stock rebuilds that are fully improved with Nickies, IMS Solution, ARP hardware, etc. for those who want a bulletproof stock replacement engine.
Curious to why? I am sure your rebuilds are awesome but it seemed like that extra displacement would come for free almost?
turbogrill is offline  
Old 05-01-2019, 07:21 PM
  #53  
Charles Navarro
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Charles Navarro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Momence, IL
Posts: 1,087
Default

Originally Posted by turbogrill View Post
Curious to why? I am sure your rebuilds are awesome but it seemed like that extra displacement would come for free almost?
Fair question. Some people want a stock rebuild, but beefed up. RND is for that very particular customer. We aren't looking to corner the market on engine builds, as we are plenty busy sleeving blocks with Nickies and with all our other parts we make in house.

More importantly, in the coming months, we are going to offer engine kits and blocks on exchange, to better support the DIY owner and enthusiast.
Charles Navarro is offline  
Old 05-02-2019, 12:21 AM
  #54  
wsrgklt
User
Thread Starter
 
wsrgklt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 103
Default

Updates:

1. I confirmed with Vertex via email that they will include sleeving and pistons at their published price if you pay to ship them your motor for a rebuild rather than exchange for one of their stocked motors. I also asked about increasing bore size/displacement and they said they would do increase my 3.4 to 3.6 or 3.8 for an extra $2k. I updated the spreadsheet with latest info for Vertex.
2. To make the spreadsheet more applicable to different 996 engines, I changed the displacement/bore size row to only show bore size, and added a comment to the first column with the resulting displacement changes for 3.4 and 3.6 blocks.
3. I had a very interesting call with Alpine Autowerks in Calgary who do the Hartech rebuild method in North America. I'm waiting on an email with details, and will update the spreadsheet and this thread when I have them.
4. I've called two different Porsche dealers to get a quote on a short block exchange. One hasn't returned my message for a few days. The service writer at the other one tried to shuffle me off to the parts department until I pointed out that I need them to R&I the engine and swap the heads. I could practically hear him deflate on the other end of the phone as he told me he had to talk to his technicians and would call me back. We'll see.
wsrgklt is offline  
Old 05-02-2019, 12:29 AM
  #55  
wsrgklt
User
Thread Starter
 
wsrgklt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 103
Default

Originally Posted by turbogrill View Post
Curious to why? I am sure your rebuilds are awesome but it seemed like that extra displacement would come for free almost?
turbogrill I saw Jake Raby post in another thread that he was happy to have LN rebuild stock motors so FSI could concentrate on modified motors. Since a lot of people think of LN and FSI as synonymous (or at least equivalent), and there is enough demand for their rebuilds for them both to have a long wait list, it would seem they've made a friendly agreement to split the market this way. Jake and Charles can correct me if I'm reading into this incorrectly.

Although, it's interesting to note that the FSI Stocker competes directly with the RND rebuild, as the spreadsheet shows.

Last edited by wsrgklt; 05-02-2019 at 12:56 AM.
wsrgklt is offline  
Old 05-02-2019, 12:43 AM
  #56  
wsrgklt
User
Thread Starter
 
wsrgklt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 103
Default

Originally Posted by Charles Navarro View Post

This backs up what I have seen in blocks that we're re-sleeved with Nickies after being done with steel sleeves...

...Either the sleeves can move during operation, which in fact we've actually seen them rotate (see above) or they fall out of the block in our ultrasonic which is heated to 180F.

We've also found blocks that were cracked and not salvageable after having been sleeved with steel/iron sleeves as well, like what was mentioned in the AERA article.
Charles Navarro Thanks for the detailed information about thermal issues and the photos. Definitely helpful for understanding the sleeving process.

I'm also looking to gather at least some anecdotal statements about longevity from different providers, since everyone offers the same 1yr warranty regardless of approach. You've sleeved a lot of blocks with Nickies at this point, and I would assume any owners with issues would come back to you first, so how many of your sleeves have ended up with scoring or other issues?
wsrgklt is offline  
Old 05-02-2019, 01:22 AM
  #57  
wsrgklt
User
Thread Starter
 
wsrgklt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 103
Default

Originally Posted by hatchetf15 View Post
And, not to hijack a thread, but what are the shop hours for a full build and for drop and reinstall?
hatchetf15 I just noticed in my notes from a phone call with one of the shops that the engine R&I with clutch install was 18 hours.
wsrgklt is offline  
Old 05-02-2019, 10:28 AM
  #58  
Charles Navarro
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Charles Navarro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Momence, IL
Posts: 1,087
Default

Originally Posted by wsrgklt View Post
Charles Navarro Thanks for the detailed information about thermal issues and the photos. Definitely helpful for understanding the sleeving process.

I'm also looking to gather at least some anecdotal statements about longevity from different providers, since everyone offers the same 1yr warranty regardless of approach. You've sleeved a lot of blocks with Nickies at this point, and I would assume any owners with issues would come back to you first, so how many of your sleeves have ended up with scoring or other issues?
The biggest issues we see with any engine built with nikasil cylinders, either Nickies or Mahle Motorsports, and that goes for aircooled or watercooled as well, is improper cleaning, assembly, using synthetic oil at break-in, and most importantly, overfuelling, especially during break-in, which can happen with any engine, regardless of cylinder technology employed.

Excess fuel either from a bad injector or a vacuum leak causing enrichment will wash down a cylinder bore in short order and wipe the rings out, requiring the bore to be deglazed and re-ringed. Case in point, a well known and respected Porsche shop had a factory Porsche shortblock score on the same cylinder 2000 miles in as had scored on the previous engine. Injectors tested ok, but they obviously were not. That's why we mandate injectors be replaced when rebuilding or replacing an engine and why we have detailed instructions for the RND program or what and what not to do when installing an engine.

We have had a few customers over the years, aircooled and watercooled, including complete RND Engines or with blocks sleeved by LN with Nickies, have problems attributed to these issues caused by one of these errors or failures we've identified that are not an actual defect or issue with the Nickies cylinders or sleeves themselves.

Case in point, we have a car that had an RND Engine fitted at another shop come to us with a massive vacuum leak (diagnosed by smoke test), which required us to tear the block down and rebuild the engine to correct the damage caused by the shortcomings of the installation.

The reason I am going to such lengths to make my point is that we often see shops cut corners or are just purely incompetent, almost on a daily basis, trying to be the hero by saving the customer money or lowering acceptable standards for what needs to be changed or done during any particular job (IMS replacement, engine rebuild) to meet a price point rather than lose a job to another shop.

Lastly, a warranty is just a piece of paper. What can't be quantified on any spreadsheet is years of support on various forums and through emails by Jake, myself, and other shop owners. None of the other engine builders or parts suppliers listed participate at any level supporting the community that gives them business. That aside, I have been supplying aircooled cylinders for almost 20 years and sleeving M96 blocks for a majority of that time, and I would suggest anyone considering having an engine done to search the forums and the Internet for negative experiences with their Nickies cylinders.
Charles Navarro is offline  
Old 05-02-2019, 10:36 AM
  #59  
Charles Navarro
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Charles Navarro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Momence, IL
Posts: 1,087
Default

Originally Posted by wsrgklt View Post
turbogrill I saw Jake Raby post in another thread that he was happy to have LN rebuild stock motors so FSI could concentrate on modified motors. Since a lot of people think of LN and FSI as synonymous (or at least equivalent), and there is enough demand for their rebuilds for them both to have a long wait list, it would seem they've made a friendly agreement to split the market this way. Jake and Charles can correct me if I'm reading into this incorrectly.

Although, it's interesting to note that the FSI Stocker competes directly with the RND rebuild, as the spreadsheet shows.
Correct. They compare almost exactly because Jake built the RND program for SSF Auto Parts originally. With SSF bowing out of the engine business, I have taken over RND since the start of the year and rolled RND into LN's operations.
Charles Navarro is offline  
Old 05-02-2019, 10:52 AM
  #60  
islaTurbine
User
 
islaTurbine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: The ATL
Posts: 1,191
Default

Amazing thread. If my M96 decides to give up the ghost someday I think Iĺll be looking towards LN or FSI for help with making the Aerokit run like a true GT3.
islaTurbine is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - About Us - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: