Buying my first 911 - thoughts and comments
02-12-2019, 04:40 PM
#1
Buying my first 911 - thoughts and comments
Hi all,
I've been tinkering with the idea of buying a used 911 for quite some time now. I've been driving M3's for the past few years and recently bought a Grand Cherokee for daily/family duties. That leaves me with a budget of $20-25k for my fun car and I figured now is the time for a 911. I will also be tracking the car 4-6 times per year. I have taken my M's on track a few times over the years, but I am in no way a great track driver.
I found a 996 C2 with the X51 power kit close to where I live. It is a 2003, has 87k miles, manual, X51, PSE, Xenons, and 18" wheels. Carfax shows an accident to the rear in 2005, but the dealer that its at (not a Porsche dealer) states that the "panels look great" and there is no additional info on the Carfax. They are asking $23,900 and I could probably make a deal around $20k. I would definitely be brining the car to a 3rd party for a PPI, which they told me they can facilitate. What do you guys think about the price for this car? I don't want to go ahead with the PPI and waste $300 if it is too expensive for what it is along with the miles. Also a note, the dealership has no service records, so I could definitely be in it another few grand for the IMS/RMS/Clutch along with other misc items.
Thanks!
I've been tinkering with the idea of buying a used 911 for quite some time now. I've been driving M3's for the past few years and recently bought a Grand Cherokee for daily/family duties. That leaves me with a budget of $20-25k for my fun car and I figured now is the time for a 911. I will also be tracking the car 4-6 times per year. I have taken my M's on track a few times over the years, but I am in no way a great track driver.
I found a 996 C2 with the X51 power kit close to where I live. It is a 2003, has 87k miles, manual, X51, PSE, Xenons, and 18" wheels. Carfax shows an accident to the rear in 2005, but the dealer that its at (not a Porsche dealer) states that the "panels look great" and there is no additional info on the Carfax. They are asking $23,900 and I could probably make a deal around $20k. I would definitely be brining the car to a 3rd party for a PPI, which they told me they can facilitate. What do you guys think about the price for this car? I don't want to go ahead with the PPI and waste $300 if it is too expensive for what it is along with the miles. Also a note, the dealership has no service records, so I could definitely be in it another few grand for the IMS/RMS/Clutch along with other misc items.
Thanks!
02-12-2019, 05:01 PM
#3
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The price sounds about right to me.
Expect to spend up to $5K to get things sorted, or less if you can do all your own work.
I also came from the BMW world.
I don't really miss my 135i!
Expect to spend up to $5K to get things sorted, or less if you can do all your own work.
I also came from the BMW world.
I don't really miss my 135i!
02-12-2019, 08:15 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
A wild guess assuming the accident was a fender bender and all the known issues have been addressed $17-$22K.
Do you have a link to the car in question?
Do you have a link to the car in question?
02-12-2019, 09:03 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
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02-12-2019, 10:13 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Without a build sheet, it’s tough to put a value on these cars given there was $30k in options available when built. Based on what you’ve listed if your able to confirm the accident was at low speed (parking lot incident) and no lingering issues exist, I’d say the car is priced about right for you to make an offer around $21k and feel pretty good about it. As others mentioned, I’d budget at least $5k to get ready to see any track time, likely more.
You are are amongst the majority of 996 owners that came from BMWs and the 996 being your first 911 (myself included). Looking back, the e46 M3 is a very comparable car to the 996, it if you wanna try something different, you won’t be disappointed. Good luck and keep us posted.
You are are amongst the majority of 996 owners that came from BMWs and the 996 being your first 911 (myself included). Looking back, the e46 M3 is a very comparable car to the 996, it if you wanna try something different, you won’t be disappointed. Good luck and keep us posted.
02-13-2019, 02:57 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
I'd be surprised if the dealer drops the selling price by $4k but if you get it for that, go for it.
with the options you listed I'd be willing to pay 21-22 if it's otherwise a nice car. I also DIY so the IMS costs are not an issue for me
with the options you listed I'd be willing to pay 21-22 if it's otherwise a nice car. I also DIY so the IMS costs are not an issue for me
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02-13-2019, 04:17 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
The X51 is a desirable (and fairly uncommon) option. The accident will obviously have a negative impact on value, but if was minor and repaired properly it shouldn't be a reason not to buy the car. No maintenance records isn't ideal, but it doesn't mean its a bad car. I bought mine without records and found out that it had been very well maintained. Unfortunately I found this out after I'd already bought a new clutch, among other things, that didn't need to be replaced after all. Good luck with your hunt.
02-13-2019, 05:10 PM
#9
Isn't the M96 known for on-track oil starvation issues without a sump/ Accusump? I don't know if I would track an M96 without addressing this concern first.
Smarter 996 owners will opine I'm sure.
Per Jake @ Flat Six:
"These engines have problems with overloaded, overheated oil. This breeds the issues that appear to be G force rooted, when the G forces only push things over the edge.
Failure of the #6 rod bearing comes from failure of the aft main bearing, as the oil that feeds #6 is delivered to it as waste oil from the aft main bearing. The oil is fed to the rod bearing primarily through centrifugal force.
On the track use of the clutch up and down through the gearbox creates a ton of heat at the aft portion of the crankshaft. This heat is transferred to the main bearing journal closest to the flywheel, which is ironically the same main bearing thats delivering oil to the #6 rod bearing.
This heat creates a condition where the oil shears. Once the oil shears, wear increases. When the aft main bearing begins to wear, foreign object debris from this wear is generated. Once the debris is generated, it is then force fed into the #6 rod bearing, creating a rod bearing failure, leading to a connecting rod bolt failure, and total engine loss.
This is not new. I have seen it hundreds of times. This lands 50% of our work here, and I have been researching this since day #1.
Use an oil proven to maintain viscosity at 300 degrees F. The only oils I have seen do this are Driven
XP6,7 & 9, or Motul 300V. Nothing else.
That said, the true "fix" for this comes in the form of altered running clearances for the components, to reduce the shear, as well as protective coatings to help gain some margin of error. Not sure if the F1 engine builder opened the clearances, or not- If I built it, they would have been."
Also from Loren on Renntech:
"The later 3.4 liter cars are better than the early ones as they changed the internal baffles. The 3.6 liter cars got additional oil pump capacity and as well the baffles. The 3.6 Powerkit upgrade took this even a little further with a second oil pickup point and a new baffle system. But, Porsche still recommends that if you use racing tires you should by the Porsche MotorSports Kit and install it. (Some engine disassembly is required)."
Smarter 996 owners will opine I'm sure.
Per Jake @ Flat Six:
"These engines have problems with overloaded, overheated oil. This breeds the issues that appear to be G force rooted, when the G forces only push things over the edge.
Failure of the #6 rod bearing comes from failure of the aft main bearing, as the oil that feeds #6 is delivered to it as waste oil from the aft main bearing. The oil is fed to the rod bearing primarily through centrifugal force.
On the track use of the clutch up and down through the gearbox creates a ton of heat at the aft portion of the crankshaft. This heat is transferred to the main bearing journal closest to the flywheel, which is ironically the same main bearing thats delivering oil to the #6 rod bearing.
This heat creates a condition where the oil shears. Once the oil shears, wear increases. When the aft main bearing begins to wear, foreign object debris from this wear is generated. Once the debris is generated, it is then force fed into the #6 rod bearing, creating a rod bearing failure, leading to a connecting rod bolt failure, and total engine loss.
This is not new. I have seen it hundreds of times. This lands 50% of our work here, and I have been researching this since day #1.
Use an oil proven to maintain viscosity at 300 degrees F. The only oils I have seen do this are Driven
XP6,7 & 9, or Motul 300V. Nothing else.
That said, the true "fix" for this comes in the form of altered running clearances for the components, to reduce the shear, as well as protective coatings to help gain some margin of error. Not sure if the F1 engine builder opened the clearances, or not- If I built it, they would have been."
Also from Loren on Renntech:
"The later 3.4 liter cars are better than the early ones as they changed the internal baffles. The 3.6 liter cars got additional oil pump capacity and as well the baffles. The 3.6 Powerkit upgrade took this even a little further with a second oil pickup point and a new baffle system. But, Porsche still recommends that if you use racing tires you should by the Porsche MotorSports Kit and install it. (Some engine disassembly is required)."
Last edited by curtsr; 02-13-2019 at 05:27 PM.
02-13-2019, 05:23 PM
#10
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I have added a 2qt deep sump, which comes with new 997 oil separators.
I also added a third radiator, new water pump, and new LN 160F thermostat to my car.
I've done this in anticipation of taking it to the track.
I'll also change from Driven DT40 to XP9 before going.
It was not a lot of work, or expense really, and while some may think it is overkill, the peace of mind is priceless.
I also added a third radiator, new water pump, and new LN 160F thermostat to my car.
I've done this in anticipation of taking it to the track.
I'll also change from Driven DT40 to XP9 before going.
It was not a lot of work, or expense really, and while some may think it is overkill, the peace of mind is priceless.
02-13-2019, 05:52 PM
#11
Shameful Thread Killer
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
If you can get them to come down $4000, that would pay for most of your track prep. Price is in the ballpark, not great, not bad. I would advise having a body/paint man look at the rear, they can often tell a lot about a accident from what's left. Tracking the M96 is not for the faint of heart. Lot of ways for the engine to go pear shaped, but whatever floats your boat.
02-14-2019, 01:54 AM
#12
Race Director
02-14-2019, 09:02 AM
#13
Rennlist Member
Yes, there was a possibility for oil starvation on the track. But for that to happen, two (2) conditions must be present at the same time. 1.) The car is in a long left hand sweeper. 2.) To generate enough g-forces, the car must also be true running racing slicks. By this, I do not mean "streetable track tires" like NT01 or RA1's. I tracked the snot out of my '99 for 3+ years on RE-11's and never once saw a drop in oil pressure.
Also, research the X51 option. It was a co-development of the Mezger motor for the GT3 program as Porsche was worried about homologation. It has many internal improvements over the standard M96 motor including a different oil pan and pickup system.
Finally, despite all the internal strengthening the X51 received, it still has the IMSB and it is just as likely to fail as any other M96. My 40th Jahre had it fail at 2 years and has been running a factory replacement motor ever since.
02-14-2019, 10:30 AM
#14
Rennlist Member
Let's add some clarity to this old wive's tale.
Yes, there was a possibility for oil starvation on the track. But for that to happen, two (2) conditions must be present at the same time. 1.) The car is in a long left hand sweeper. 2.) To generate enough g-forces, the car must also be true running racing slicks. By this, I do not mean "streetable track tires" like NT01 or RA1's. I tracked the snot out of my '99 for 3+ years on RE-11's and never once saw a drop in oil pressure.
Also, research the X51 option. It was a co-development of the Mezger motor for the GT3 program as Porsche was worried about homologation. It has many internal improvements over the standard M96 motor including a different oil pan and pickup system.
Finally, despite all the internal strengthening the X51 received, it still has the IMSB and it is just as likely to fail as any other M96. My 40th Jahre had it fail at 2 years and has been running a factory replacement motor ever since.
Yes, there was a possibility for oil starvation on the track. But for that to happen, two (2) conditions must be present at the same time. 1.) The car is in a long left hand sweeper. 2.) To generate enough g-forces, the car must also be true running racing slicks. By this, I do not mean "streetable track tires" like NT01 or RA1's. I tracked the snot out of my '99 for 3+ years on RE-11's and never once saw a drop in oil pressure.
Also, research the X51 option. It was a co-development of the Mezger motor for the GT3 program as Porsche was worried about homologation. It has many internal improvements over the standard M96 motor including a different oil pan and pickup system.
Finally, despite all the internal strengthening the X51 received, it still has the IMSB and it is just as likely to fail as any other M96. My 40th Jahre had it fail at 2 years and has been running a factory replacement motor ever since.
02-14-2019, 10:33 AM
#15
Rennlist Member
Hi all,
I've been tinkering with the idea of buying a used 911 for quite some time now. I've been driving M3's for the past few years and recently bought a Grand Cherokee for daily/family duties. That leaves me with a budget of $20-25k for my fun car and I figured now is the time for a 911. I will also be tracking the car 4-6 times per year. I have taken my M's on track a few times over the years, but I am in no way a great track driver.
I found a 996 C2 with the X51 power kit close to where I live. It is a 2003, has 87k miles, manual, X51, PSE, Xenons, and 18" wheels. Carfax shows an accident to the rear in 2005, but the dealer that its at (not a Porsche dealer) states that the "panels look great" and there is no additional info on the Carfax. They are asking $23,900 and I could probably make a deal around $20k. I would definitely be brining the car to a 3rd party for a PPI, which they told me they can facilitate. What do you guys think about the price for this car? I don't want to go ahead with the PPI and waste $300 if it is too expensive for what it is along with the miles. Also a note, the dealership has no service records, so I could definitely be in it another few grand for the IMS/RMS/Clutch along with other misc items.
Thanks!
I've been tinkering with the idea of buying a used 911 for quite some time now. I've been driving M3's for the past few years and recently bought a Grand Cherokee for daily/family duties. That leaves me with a budget of $20-25k for my fun car and I figured now is the time for a 911. I will also be tracking the car 4-6 times per year. I have taken my M's on track a few times over the years, but I am in no way a great track driver.
I found a 996 C2 with the X51 power kit close to where I live. It is a 2003, has 87k miles, manual, X51, PSE, Xenons, and 18" wheels. Carfax shows an accident to the rear in 2005, but the dealer that its at (not a Porsche dealer) states that the "panels look great" and there is no additional info on the Carfax. They are asking $23,900 and I could probably make a deal around $20k. I would definitely be brining the car to a 3rd party for a PPI, which they told me they can facilitate. What do you guys think about the price for this car? I don't want to go ahead with the PPI and waste $300 if it is too expensive for what it is along with the miles. Also a note, the dealership has no service records, so I could definitely be in it another few grand for the IMS/RMS/Clutch along with other misc items.
Thanks!
