I’m going to make an attempt at explaining my issue with the 996 community’s apparent affinity for devaluing the 996 when it offers “advice” (I use that term loosely) about what the purchase price of some 996 should be.

Let me preface this by saying that I, like some of you, was only able to get into a 911 because of the recent 996 market status. I was born poor and am still struggling to claw my way out of it while being honest and not stabbing backs (even though I am constantly lied to and stabbed in the back). I am not a car flipper and I have every intention of keeping this 996 forever. It is my only car and I drive it every day, so, unless I am a complete idiot (which some of you may believe I am), I obviously didn’t buy this car as an “investment,” although any major purchase is an investment whether you like it or not. Also, I do not care about being “the smartest person in the room” and this has absolutely nothing to do with how much I paid for my car. I have identified what I believe to be a detriment to the community and I am trying to address it. If I’m coming across as negative or pompous or condescending, I apologize in advance as that is nowhere near my intention. I am not a selfish ******* - if I was, I wouldn’t post anything at all and I would be a lot better off from a financial perspective than I am. I actively avoid being selfish as much as I possibly can to a fault. I am also not a liar. In fact, dishonesty is one of my biggest peeves (the other is people who display a total lack of consideration). Also, my post count and RL membership duration are not indicative of my overall life experience. This topic is way more broad than Rennlist or Porsche or the 996.

I’m not an economist or a broker, but I have a lot of varied experience that gives me a unique perspective that I want to share. But if that perspective isn’t valued here, I don’t want to waste my time or the community’s. If you don’t feel that you can learn from or positively contribute to this post, then keep your snide comments to yourself, please. I can’t stand the typical forum condescension that people display from their keyboard. Now, onto the analogy.

Imagine you’re a home owner and you’re at a block party on your street. Let’s just say, for the sake of the analogy, that you paid $150k for your house and the house two doors down is listed for sale at $175k - this house is the exact same floor plan, lot size, finishes, etc. as your house, maybe it’s a different color. But it’s practically the same house on the same street. You’re at the block party, hanging out with your neighbors having fun conversations and such, when a complete stranger walks up and says, “hey everybody, I’m looking at purchasing this house on your street and I’d like to know what you all think of the asking price.” Several of your neighbors then respond: “Oh I wouldn’t touch that house for anything over $140k,” “man, I could’ve bought two of my house and had money left over for that,” “that’s a huge ripoff!” and so on. Would you think that is a good thing? If so, then I don’t ever want to live in the same neighborhood as you, let alone buy something there. Not because I’m looking to flip a house in your neighborhood, but because I don’t want to live in a neighborhood where the neighbors are hell bent on making sure that equity can never be built in a house I buy there. Why? Because we live in a market economy and when property values tank enough, the neighborhood goes to hell: the schools won’t get the funding they need to be decent, ISPs won’t want to install the infrastructure required for better internet, roads won’t get repaired/maintained as often as they should, local businesses will move to greener pastures making life less convenient, etc.

The 996 market is similar (notice I said “similar,” not the same. I am not saying buying a house is exactly the same as buying a car) and this forum is the block party. If everyone at this party is actively trying to keep prices down, or at least a significant enough portion of the “neighbors,” it’s not just resale that’s affected. Aftermarket support, events that cater to (or at least include) the 996, even Porsche support will vanish. If there isn’t any money in a market, there’s no incentive for anyone to come into that market and the vendors supporting that market will either go out of business or move to another market altogether. Does that make sense? Public opinion has a HUGE effect on any market, especially one so fickle and volatile as this. So what is said in this forum, especially with regards to purchase price, has a real effect on the 996 market value.

My issue with the constant comments implying how dumb people are for “overpaying” for their 996 isn’t so shortsighted or selfish as how much I can flip my car for. The situation surrounding my purchase of my 996 is not the same as anyone else’s and vice versa. But the market value of the 996 in general affects all 996 owners. It’s not just about resale. When your property appreciates in market value it is a good thing (to an extent). Conversely, when your property looses market value it is only a bad thing. There is absolutely nothing to be gained, for current 996 owners, from keeping prices low.

Of course, on the other end of the spectrum, we wouldn’t want speculators to “gentrify” the 996 market. If property values increase enough in your neighborhood, the taxes could get so high that it becomes impossible to live there for non-rich folks. For the 996 community, this would translate to, for example, $12k for an exhaust that’s really a $1500 part on any other car and even more money for an exhaust that meets the standards of a part for a car like ours. When I had my M3, they called it the “M tax” where everything for that car had padded prices because the vendors figured the owners could afford it. We do live in a capitalist society, after all (I’m not arguing for or against capitalism here, just reporting on reality). So it could go too far in the opposite direction, but I don’t see that being a problem for the 996 any time soon, if ever.

But if the prices do stay this low, nobody will even care to make parts for them anymore and none of us will get to drive them at all. There aren’t enough 996s in existence to enjoy the same kind of support of cars in this price range. I’m hoping the fact that Porsche Classic is going to start supporting the 996 helps. But I can’t imagine them being interested in keeping a group of customers that focus on purchase price over all else; I don’t know of any organization, except maybe Walmart, that would. It’s just not worth their time/energy/resources.

This whole phenomenon seems to be a weird competition where paying more than someone else did for their car means losing that competition. Far be it from me to tell anyone what to do - I know I hate being told what to do. I’m merely suggesting that, by constantly having this pricing competition, especially with non-996 owners, in the way it’s being had is not helping anyone. It’s a race to the bottom. It’s not even helping the buyers! After all, once they buy they’re a 996 owner and are affected by the 996 market. If this was a situation where people are being duped into buying crap cars for way too much money, then I’d be all for it. But that’s not what I see happening. I see apples being compared to oranges and there only being one side to the discussion: no matter what, the price is always “too high” even when it isn’t. Let the buyers decide what they’re willing to pay. If you see values creeping up into gentrification territory, then respond accordingly. But that ain’t happening. If you got your 996 for what you think was an amazing deal, that’s great! But every 996 isn’t going to be worth the same money to every buyer. Telling people they’re paying too much, especially when the only reason you say that is because you paid less, isn’t just shooting yourself in both feet, it’s bringing the whole 996 owner community down.

Hopefully this makes sense and sparks a real conversation and not a bunch of nonsense. If there is anything about this post I should edit to avoid a thread like the last one, please PM me and let me know.

If that’s the case, then so be it. I’ll know for sure then that I have no place on any internet automotive forum. Not the end of the world. But I’ll take those parts out.

I have tried in the past to have a daily and a weekend car. I couldn’t do it. So my every day car has to be something I enjoy driving. It would be a very long post to explain the whole story, but I settled on the 911 being my car of choice a few years ago and finally pulled the trigger in November. I got it for a few reasons, but the main being my personal conveyance.

Value is the exact concept to which I am referring in this thread. This forum is obsessed with price. I am trying to help bring the conversation away from price and toward the value of the experience of 911 ownership. I don’t understand why everyone is so set on fighting me on this.

“Let me preface this by saying that I, like some of you, was only able to get into a 911 because of the recent 996 market status.”

Are you not shooting yourself in the foot with this statement? If prices had appreciated you’d not have been able to buy one.

I think air air cooled prices are silly and hope the 996 doesn’t go the same way as those folks will be afraid to put miles on them fearing depreciation. They’re just cars. As Magnus says: “get out and drive”!

I was specifically told in the train wreck of a thread I started that “we want prices low.” Whether you think you’re trying to keep prices low or not, I have seen posts from you that help that happen. Public opinion plays a very big role in market value and this is the biggest online Porsche community out there. When I search for 996 related stuff, this and one other forum pops up time after time. People want a quick answer to their questions these days and don’t care much for context. Buyers come here and read two posts that convince them they’re paying too much and make up their purchase decisions from that, sometimes. That’s obviously not all the time, but it’s definitely, at least in my opinion, enough to make a difference.

Supply and demand don’t play as big a role in the market as public perception anymore, in my opinion. Although I agree the supply would definitely affect whether or not companies would see it worth their time to get into some market segment. Also, the perfect storm of: the increased volume over the 993; the headlight design; IMSB suit; and advent (not invention, but advent) of the internet together were probably the biggest contributing factors to the lower 996 values. But I don’t think any one of those things by themselves would’ve had too much of an effect on prices. While the internet certainly has had its advantages, it has also been terrible in some ways. The public perception of the IMSB issue is a great example of how far something can spin out of control because of internet echo chambers.

To your concern over what I’d do in the event of engine failure - I have worked on motorcycles, cars, tanks, helicopters, and many other things in my life. If I experience catastrophic engine failure, I will fix it and be very depressed while my prized possession is broken.

Thank you so much for this reply.

I would agree with your point that lower prices would keep people interested if there were more 996s produced than there were. Every generation of the Civic had probably well over ten times the amount of cars produced than all 996s of all years and “trim levels,” let’s call it for the sake of comparison to the Civic. That’s why those prices can stay low and there is still incentive for aftermarket support of those cars.

I’m also not suggesting that the sale price of a used car has everything to do with incentivizing aftermarket support, but it does play into market research for anyone looking to start an aftermarket company which supports some used car or another. How much the average owner of a particular thing was willing to pay compared to similar things gives somewhat of a blurry picture of what can be expected with regards to how much the average owner of that thing is willing to pay for aftermarket support.

Also, if an entire market is filled with bargain shoppers, it has a pretty big effect on what kind of support that market attracts. If a market segment is small enough, a significant portion of it being comprised of bargain shoppers will preclude the possibility of anyone worth their salt starting a business which supports that market. “Slum lord” types are the ones who go after bargain shopper markets. But they wouldn’t even look at a market that only has 175,000 total possible customers in today’s world.

I feel like I specifically addressed that when I compared such a phenomenon as what happened to the 964s to the gentrification of some neighborhood. I don’t think that’s a good thing as much as I don’t think it’s a good thing to tell people they’re paying too much just because there have been lower sale prices in the past.


No, I’m not shooting myself in the foot by saying that. I’m not sure how one could possibly come to such a conclusion. If I didn’t get this 996 when I did, I would’ve gotten a 7.2 in a couple more years. I am happy I didn’t have to wait. But the prices being as low as they are don’t necessarily have to do with what I’m trying to address on this forum. What I’m saying is that the prices staying this low, specifically because of the obsession with price in here, will have a detrimental effect on 996 owners.

Wow, thanks for that useful contribution, Scott. You’re so clever!