Trackcar - 996 Turbo or C2?
07-19-2018, 11:53 AM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Trackcar - 996 Turbo or C2?
I currently run a 3.4 C2 for track work, I drive it to the circuit and as such it still has an interior and is road legal so not completely stripped out, weight is 1297Kg's.
It's getting to the point where 297bhp is becoming limiting and given the cars age is approaching the point where an engine rebuild could be considered.
The dilemma, do I keep the C2 and spend Circa $20k on a 3.7 rebuild giving circa 350bhp.
Or do I sell and add $20k and purchase a turbo?
When considering a turbo I see the pro's as 420 bhp out of the box, easily tuned to more.
Mezger Engine reliability
And the cons as, Turbo charged not NASP
Bigger, heavier car.
I do not see 4wd as being an issue as I would convert to 2wd.
Does anyone has experience of driving both on track?
How does a turbo perform? How linear is the power delivery? Can it be manipulated in corner with the throttle?
Does it feel big and/or heavy? How different dynamically from a C2?
All help appreciated, however..,
Please do not respond with anything related to a GT3, in my market these cost four times what a C2 does and twice what a turbo does and as such cannot be justified.
It's getting to the point where 297bhp is becoming limiting and given the cars age is approaching the point where an engine rebuild could be considered.
The dilemma, do I keep the C2 and spend Circa $20k on a 3.7 rebuild giving circa 350bhp.
Or do I sell and add $20k and purchase a turbo?
When considering a turbo I see the pro's as 420 bhp out of the box, easily tuned to more.
Mezger Engine reliability
And the cons as, Turbo charged not NASP
Bigger, heavier car.
I do not see 4wd as being an issue as I would convert to 2wd.
Does anyone has experience of driving both on track?
How does a turbo perform? How linear is the power delivery? Can it be manipulated in corner with the throttle?
Does it feel big and/or heavy? How different dynamically from a C2?
All help appreciated, however..,
Please do not respond with anything related to a GT3, in my market these cost four times what a C2 does and twice what a turbo does and as such cannot be justified.
07-19-2018, 12:01 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
I've driven all 3.... A turbo, a 3.4 996 and now a 3.8 996.
I simply didn't like the turbo on the track. Straights were fun - but the car was so heavy it felt like it lumbered around corners. This was a mildly tuned turbo with some suspension work but otherwise a street car. The 3.8 996 is a beast... no other way to describe it.
Slakker has a turbo race car now that he's got some experience in - he's done the 3.4 996 and the 3.8 996 as well. I've only driven the turbos as my students cars - so I'd drive them different if I owned them - but my impression stands.
I simply didn't like the turbo on the track. Straights were fun - but the car was so heavy it felt like it lumbered around corners. This was a mildly tuned turbo with some suspension work but otherwise a street car. The 3.8 996 is a beast... no other way to describe it.
Slakker has a turbo race car now that he's got some experience in - he's done the 3.4 996 and the 3.8 996 as well. I've only driven the turbos as my students cars - so I'd drive them different if I owned them - but my impression stands.
07-19-2018, 12:18 PM
#3
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks for the input.
Do you feel the weight could be managed by stripping and running motorsport suspension? - Losing the front diff sheds a heap.
Weight aside how how did you find the power delivery of the turbo? Linear? Any lag?
I like the way my C2 drives and having invested in the chassisI if I could only get 400 bhp from it I would be perfect!!
Do you feel the weight could be managed by stripping and running motorsport suspension? - Losing the front diff sheds a heap.
Weight aside how how did you find the power delivery of the turbo? Linear? Any lag?
I like the way my C2 drives and having invested in the chassisI if I could only get 400 bhp from it I would be perfect!!
07-19-2018, 12:28 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
I found the power delivery difficult to modulate in corners - so definitely laggy. That may be a product of the tune that was in the car though - it was dyno'd at something like 620.... Slakker has his Turbo race car converted to 2wd - he bought it from someone here on the forum too - so they may be able to assist (assuming they see this).
380 ish isn't that far away... for what you would spend on buying the turbo and then the suspension for it - and all of the conversion etc - you may be better off just finding a new motor for the C2.
380 ish isn't that far away... for what you would spend on buying the turbo and then the suspension for it - and all of the conversion etc - you may be better off just finding a new motor for the C2.
07-19-2018, 05:19 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
The 991.2 Turbo guys say that tracking those turbos are way different and perform very nicely.
Prime reasons include:
- You can setup the suspension in a myriad or ways to make it handle much better on the track
- The Turbo lag is probably not nearly as bad on the new cars
- The Power is immense
So I would post in the Turbo forums and make sure you have a look at the suspension adjustment options.
I would seriously consider a Turbo before dismissing it.
Prime reasons include:
- You can setup the suspension in a myriad or ways to make it handle much better on the track
- The Turbo lag is probably not nearly as bad on the new cars
- The Power is immense
So I would post in the Turbo forums and make sure you have a look at the suspension adjustment options.
I would seriously consider a Turbo before dismissing it.
07-19-2018, 05:37 PM
#6
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Seriously an LS3 swap would great for a track car like this. You would lose 50 lb in weight. You can build an engine that will make 450-550 whp N/A with whatever power band you want. Definitely doable in the $10-20k range. If this is a dedicated track car, you could pull out a lot of the Porsche wiring and use a digital dash and run almost everything off the GM ECU.
I swapped my 996.2 C2 and all the hardest issues to fix have to do with wanting the gauge cluster to work like stock. It's a really easy swap mechanically.
I swapped my 996.2 C2 and all the hardest issues to fix have to do with wanting the gauge cluster to work like stock. It's a really easy swap mechanically.
07-19-2018, 06:33 PM
#7
I have a 3.8 997S engine just over 400HP in my 996 and love the car...I am not a fan of turbos ever since one got away from me when I was caught off guard with the turbo lag. This is much better in new cars though.
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07-19-2018, 07:09 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
Turbos are generally not well regarded for track use. I think the newer "non-turbo" Porsche's that have the small light pressure turbos would be an exception. I was behind one for awhile on my last track weekend during one session, the squatting out of corners was remarkable as he went on and off boost, clearly made it hard to drive smoothly.
07-19-2018, 08:04 PM
#9
Turbo will be just OK, even if you stay in the right RPM range. You do need to get rid of the AWD and run RWD (as you indicated) for the track - lots of people have done this successfully. Two downsides to 996 Turbo are the gearing and rev limit. Shifting so often gets old. Personally, I wouldn't run force induction on a track car.
I'd keep the 996 and convert to full track. Take some of that 20K and get a beater street car. Engine concerns are always there on a track car. 996 is gonna blow eventually. Get the IMS fix, a deep sump, under drive pulley, oil/tranny fluid cooler and then you're about 90% there on engine preventative measures. When it blows, put in something else.
-td
I'd keep the 996 and convert to full track. Take some of that 20K and get a beater street car. Engine concerns are always there on a track car. 996 is gonna blow eventually. Get the IMS fix, a deep sump, under drive pulley, oil/tranny fluid cooler and then you're about 90% there on engine preventative measures. When it blows, put in something else.
-td
07-20-2018, 04:57 AM
#12
OP knows that. He clearly said gt3 is not in the budget. Even if it was, read Vonderbuilds thread on all the work he put into his nice and clean gt3. For about $4k you can get hybrid k16s and tune from UMW by Kevin and take out a lot of the lag, get them to spool up and come on boost in much lower rpm's and get more hp/torq. I would still not run a turbo on the track.
07-20-2018, 04:58 AM
#13
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turbo. Strip it, delete FWD, rebuild those K16 turbos with modern compressor/turbine blade geometry (do not try to chase mega hp) and get a proper ECU tune. Suspensionwise parts required equal C2/GT3.
Stripped RWD turbo with gage will weigh under 1350kg (less with GF/CF doors), you can run wider wheels than NB cars and thus have more traction. Mezger engine is a big bonus, rising rev limit to 7.2k will help with gearing, but with the torque available you really do not shift that much. Plus gears can be changed wirh GT3/Cup parts. LSD is a must.
So turbo, but I'm biased.
Stripped RWD turbo with gage will weigh under 1350kg (less with GF/CF doors), you can run wider wheels than NB cars and thus have more traction. Mezger engine is a big bonus, rising rev limit to 7.2k will help with gearing, but with the torque available you really do not shift that much. Plus gears can be changed wirh GT3/Cup parts. LSD is a must.
So turbo, but I'm biased.
07-20-2018, 08:32 AM
#14
Rennlist Member
OP knows that. He clearly said gt3 is not in the budget. Even if it was, read Vonderbuilds thread on all the work he put into his nice and clean gt3. For about $4k you can get hybrid k16s and tune from UMW by Kevin and take out a lot of the lag, get them to spool up and come on boost in much lower rpm's and get more hp/torq. I would still not run a turbo on the track.
What is worse is that you can't recoup that investment because no one will pay you anything close to what you put into it when you try to sell it.
At least the GT3 is going to be pretty much ready for the track out of the box in a normally aspirated package. And there are things you can't easily replicate with the GT3 like the welded chassis seams for stiffness.
If the entry price is steep, it's because you get what you pay for. I bought mine used in 2006 with 5,500 miles on it. Yes, it was not cheap then, but I have 136,000 miles on it now and it is still worth a very handsome percentage of what I paid for it. I have no regrets and its the only car I have ever owned (out of a long list) that I have kept so long and still no desire to sell.
07-20-2018, 08:38 AM
#15
Rennlist Member
They both can be setup to run very nicely on the track. C2 is fun because if you set it up as a race car and really learn to drive it, there aren't many street cars that can beat you around a track. Google Rennpoint Track Records and see what the SP996 track record is for your favorite PCA race track. I think you will be surprised what you can do with 265rwhp. Especially if it's a track that Glenn has raced at. He's an ex dirt track racer that is wicked fast.
My '01TT was initially a drag car and then was converted to track. It's running about 550rwhp and is an absolute beast. I have a mild boost tune on it thanks to Markski that mimimizes turbo lag. I've found that managing the power with my foot is way more fun than I anticipated. I'm still in the process of adding gas earlier and earlier in the turns but it screams. I'm still getting to know the car but it turns almost identically to my C2. I'm currently about 2s off of the 997 Cup record at my local track and I'm pretty sure i can get under it with seat time.
The TT has been converted to Cup car wheel carriers, RWD and weighs in at about 3000lbs dry. It could lose another 150lbs without much effort. My GTB1 C2 weighed in at 2520lbs dry.
As far as preference, I like them both for different things but the power on the TT is extremely addictive, especially when you are out pulling '17 Z06's on the straights. I'll put both the C2 I'm building and the TT up for sale in a month or two and keep whichever doesn't sell first.
My '01TT was initially a drag car and then was converted to track. It's running about 550rwhp and is an absolute beast. I have a mild boost tune on it thanks to Markski that mimimizes turbo lag. I've found that managing the power with my foot is way more fun than I anticipated. I'm still in the process of adding gas earlier and earlier in the turns but it screams. I'm still getting to know the car but it turns almost identically to my C2. I'm currently about 2s off of the 997 Cup record at my local track and I'm pretty sure i can get under it with seat time.
The TT has been converted to Cup car wheel carriers, RWD and weighs in at about 3000lbs dry. It could lose another 150lbs without much effort. My GTB1 C2 weighed in at 2520lbs dry.
As far as preference, I like them both for different things but the power on the TT is extremely addictive, especially when you are out pulling '17 Z06's on the straights. I'll put both the C2 I'm building and the TT up for sale in a month or two and keep whichever doesn't sell first.