Soft brake at track
04-30-2018, 11:36 AM
#16
The last time I ran street pads at the track was in early 2000... after 8 laps in my corvette... I ended up using a new porsche 996 4s as brakes. She was a nice enough lady. Creamed her car. The Hawk autocross pads (blacks) I was using just cracked, fissured and came away from the backing plate in chunks. Use dedicated track pads, or drive something slower. slacker is right: module 600 and track pads (I like either pagit's or hawk dt60).
04-30-2018, 12:08 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
The last time I ran street pads at the track was in early 2000... after 8 laps in my corvette... I ended up using a new porsche 996 4s as brakes. She was a nice enough lady. Creamed her car. The Hawk autocross pads (blacks) I was using just cracked, fissured and came away from the backing plate in chunks. Use dedicated track pads, or drive something slower. slacker is right: module 600 and track pads (I like either pagit's or hawk dt60).
04-30-2018, 12:09 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
I've run both SRF and Motul 600/660. One time I had issues with Motul 600 - it was on the 3rd weekend with the same fluid at Sebring in the summer. Completely my fault.
Either of the fluids are a HUGE step up from what you're running now. Combine with some PFC, Pagid, or Ferrodo pads and you're set to go.
Either of the fluids are a HUGE step up from what you're running now. Combine with some PFC, Pagid, or Ferrodo pads and you're set to go.
04-30-2018, 05:20 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
I was running SRF with stock pads. It does not help. You have to run track pads (providing you are not a first time person at the track, and even then, you should probably change them out). Of course, braking less also helps.
If you don't want to throw big money at Hawks, you can use the StopTech street/track pad. While the bite is not as good as a true track pad, they don't fade like the stock pads do, and you can get them for under $200 for all four corners.
If you don't want to throw big money at Hawks, you can use the StopTech street/track pad. While the bite is not as good as a true track pad, they don't fade like the stock pads do, and you can get them for under $200 for all four corners.
04-30-2018, 05:36 PM
#20
Man, everybody else here must be braking a lot harder than me, or else I just have some kind of miracle setup 
I run in the advanced/instructor group with OE Textar pads, cheap-o Meyle rotors, and Ate Typ 200 fluid and I've never had a single instance of fade with this setup. The pedal is rock solid every time, perfectly consistent, lap times within a tenth or two if there isn't traffic, and I always have enough power to engage ABS (running street tires). I do about 10 track days a year, and will bleed my brakes once a year. I used to do it more often, but could never feel a difference, never saw dirty fluid or bubbles come out, so I figured what's the point, I'm just wasting fluid. I do have the GT3 scoops in the front and 997 Turbo scoops in the back. i.e. the cheapest scoops you can buy at both ends. Before anybody says it, I am NOT holding up the group, if you know what I mean. I'm not the fastest car out there, but I'm definitely not in the way either. And frankly although I feel like I take it pretty easy on my brakes to create a smooth transition into the corner, I tend to make up a lot of ground on people into braking zones, so I really don't think I'm babying my brakes unreasonably.
My ONLY complaint is that the pads wear fast. I will get roughly 4 track days out of a set of pads. But when I can re-pad the entire car for about $160 and 30 minutes of my time, there's not a very strong argument for me to upgrade to something that costs ~3x as much!!
So anyway, just putting it out there that it IS possible to track a 996 on stock equipment!! If you are getting fade 15 minutes into a session with the stock setup, I think either something is wrong with your car, or you should think about braking less. I'd rectify any problems and adjust driving style until a ~20-25-minute DE session can be done successfully without fading. THEN think about buying more expensive components to start destroying. Just my 2 cents!
I run in the advanced/instructor group with OE Textar pads, cheap-o Meyle rotors, and Ate Typ 200 fluid and I've never had a single instance of fade with this setup. The pedal is rock solid every time, perfectly consistent, lap times within a tenth or two if there isn't traffic, and I always have enough power to engage ABS (running street tires). I do about 10 track days a year, and will bleed my brakes once a year. I used to do it more often, but could never feel a difference, never saw dirty fluid or bubbles come out, so I figured what's the point, I'm just wasting fluid. I do have the GT3 scoops in the front and 997 Turbo scoops in the back. i.e. the cheapest scoops you can buy at both ends. Before anybody says it, I am NOT holding up the group, if you know what I mean. I'm not the fastest car out there, but I'm definitely not in the way either. And frankly although I feel like I take it pretty easy on my brakes to create a smooth transition into the corner, I tend to make up a lot of ground on people into braking zones, so I really don't think I'm babying my brakes unreasonably.
My ONLY complaint is that the pads wear fast. I will get roughly 4 track days out of a set of pads. But when I can re-pad the entire car for about $160 and 30 minutes of my time, there's not a very strong argument for me to upgrade to something that costs ~3x as much!!
So anyway, just putting it out there that it IS possible to track a 996 on stock equipment!! If you are getting fade 15 minutes into a session with the stock setup, I think either something is wrong with your car, or you should think about braking less. I'd rectify any problems and adjust driving style until a ~20-25-minute DE session can be done successfully without fading. THEN think about buying more expensive components to start destroying. Just my 2 cents!
04-30-2018, 06:52 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Agree with Blue Chip. I like SRF better but if a car has Motul I generally won't bother switching it. I ran motul600 in my ~550hp 996TT yesterday and it definitely got tested.
As for track pads, I generally run whatever I can pick up cheap and usually used. PFC, Pagid, Ferodo, Carbontech all work great. If I'm buying new, I'll get Hawk DTC-70's as they are less expensive and have amazing bite.
And the best thing you can do for your braking system is to make sure you are looking at the apex when you are breaking, NOT your turn in marker. I was pretty rusty yesterday and made that mistake a few times. Once I corrected, my brakes "felt" totally different.
Lastly, brake hard initially, and then feather off until you are ready to go to throttle. These cars react poorly to coasting. On low speed corners, I typically brake all the way to apex using them to help rotate the rear end (trailbraking). And the feathering allows you to gain consistency in your cornering speeds that threshold braking until turn in doesn't allow.
As for track pads, I generally run whatever I can pick up cheap and usually used. PFC, Pagid, Ferodo, Carbontech all work great. If I'm buying new, I'll get Hawk DTC-70's as they are less expensive and have amazing bite.
And the best thing you can do for your braking system is to make sure you are looking at the apex when you are breaking, NOT your turn in marker. I was pretty rusty yesterday and made that mistake a few times. Once I corrected, my brakes "felt" totally different.
Lastly, brake hard initially, and then feather off until you are ready to go to throttle. These cars react poorly to coasting. On low speed corners, I typically brake all the way to apex using them to help rotate the rear end (trailbraking). And the feathering allows you to gain consistency in your cornering speeds that threshold braking until turn in doesn't allow.
04-30-2018, 08:52 PM
#22
And the best thing you can do for your braking system is to make sure you are looking at the apex when you are breaking, NOT your turn in marker.
Lastly, brake hard initially, and then feather off until you are ready to go to throttle. These cars react poorly to coasting. On low speed corners, I typically brake all the way to apex using them to help rotate the rear end (trailbraking). And the feathering allows you to gain consistency in your cornering speeds that threshold braking until turn in doesn't allow.
Fill your brain with the right inputs by looking way into the turn (like at the apex) as you brake and you’ll speed up, gain entry and mid corner speed, trail brake naturally to hit the apex, and get better longevity out of your braking components. Plus you’ll start closing on GT3’s in your basic old 996
BTW, big fan of the ferrodo ds1.11s. I run those with sebro slotted rotors and ATE 200 with complete confidence for dozens and dozens of track days each year.
04-30-2018, 11:21 PM
#23
Intermediate
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So anyway, just putting it out there that it IS possible to track a 996 on stock equipment!! If you are getting fade 15 minutes into a session with the stock setup, I think either something is wrong with your car, or you should think about braking less. I'd rectify any problems and adjust driving style until a ~20-25-minute DE session can be done successfully without fading. THEN think about buying more expensive components to start destroying. Just my 2 cents!
However, as I mentioned I am not on stock equipment. I have run successfully on stock equipment as well, but i have upgraded my entire suspension which I am sure was also was a factor, as I was running a lot faster in all sections of the track, hitting my normal braking points in fast spots 20-30mph faster than before. Probably not a good idea to upgrade the go-faster parts without upgrading the go-slower parts....
05-01-2018, 12:27 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
Congrats on the new found speed. And yes, braking, suspension and tires need have some balance between them performance wise. So now you just need a set of RE-71R's to go with your braking upgrades. After that, your car is good (assuming you have safety) and it will be time to poor all of your discretionary income into track days and professional instruction.
05-01-2018, 01:57 AM
#25
Hello, I need some help diagnosing
I had my first track event this year yesterday, Stock pads. ATE Typ 200 changed 2 weeks ago, full system flush. My braking performance was poor at best. 15 min into my third session, coming hot into a turn, I hit the brakes and my foot went to the floor so I went strait off track. My brakes were sub-par all day, poor stopping power. I checked the pads and they are fine, like 5mm all around, a little more in front. After I changed and flushed the fluid, the pedal was firm from the top of the range of motion. Now, after the event the pedal is non-existant until about halfway down. The braking performance is poor. There is no leaking anywhere. One thing that might be helpful, a few bleeders were clogged.
Any recommendation? I am going to flush again, to see if that fixes it, If ot. I really don't know what else it could be, so does anyone know what I should check?
Thanks
I had my first track event this year yesterday, Stock pads. ATE Typ 200 changed 2 weeks ago, full system flush. My braking performance was poor at best. 15 min into my third session, coming hot into a turn, I hit the brakes and my foot went to the floor so I went strait off track. My brakes were sub-par all day, poor stopping power. I checked the pads and they are fine, like 5mm all around, a little more in front. After I changed and flushed the fluid, the pedal was firm from the top of the range of motion. Now, after the event the pedal is non-existant until about halfway down. The braking performance is poor. There is no leaking anywhere. One thing that might be helpful, a few bleeders were clogged.
Any recommendation? I am going to flush again, to see if that fixes it, If ot. I really don't know what else it could be, so does anyone know what I should check?
Thanks
05-01-2018, 10:13 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
The problem with the cup ducts is they channel the air where the rotors would be if you had cup rotors. On our cars, that ends up being below the rotors.
05-01-2018, 12:27 PM
#27
What tires are you running?
They symptoms you describe appear to be boiling the fluid in at least one caliper. I suspect the front. Folks have identified a bunch of different potential causes in this thread. Having done tons of upgrades to my 996 back in the day, I suspect that it's the wrong combination of tire/pad, coupled with lack of cooling at the front. IMO, there is no meaningful or worthwhile way to cool the rear brakes, especially given the brake bias of the 996.
Stock pads have a very specific operating range. They work awesome in low to medium temp scenarios. They have good cold bite, but after they get over their optimum operating temps, they lose efficiency. And this is where boiling fluid with a street setup starts. The high temps cause the brakes to have less braking torque, so you try to brake more. But that increases the temps making them brake still less. And, much of that extra heat gets pushed into the calipers. A second symptom the lower operating range is a longer braking zones. The longer the zone, the longer heat will be generated. That's when you start to see boiling fluid. One caliper of boiled fluid will result in a soft pedal. [note: you can simply pump, pump, pump the brakes because the other corners still have some braking force left. It just might save your car. (The common statement that you have "no brakes" with a soft pedal is an overstatement because you do, just not what you expect)]
One solution for all of this is to simply upgrade to a pad with a higher operating range. The brakes will still generate heat, but they won't get into the same "meltdown" mode as street pads. Endurance pads are an optimal choice because they have a broad operating range as well as decent initial bite. Different pads have different heat/torque as well as release characteristics. But at your level, you probably won't be able to tell the difference, honestly. [For example, this manifests itself in long braking zones where the heat curve rises significantly, which might also increase torque with certain pads. In some instances, this will result in front ABS kicking in although you haven't increased pedal pressure. So, you need to reduce pedal pressure in the braking zone slightly to have the same amount of braking force without triggering ABS. Some folks don't like this and would rather have a more consistent braking feel in one zone. Similarly, the same concept plays out with trail braking because the torque curve is impacted by pedal pressure. That is, the timing/cadence of your trail braking can be impacted by pad choice. But, like I said, most novice and intermediate drivers, and even many advance drivers can't tell the difference between pads. They just drive what they have. And there's nothing wrong with that.]
Another way this can manifest itself is when your "track" pads are not aggressive enough for your tires. For example, a set of "OK" track pads will suffer the same issues as above when you have sticky R-comp tires. That is, the tire will just roll and roll and roll in a braking zone because the brakes can't generate enough torque to slow the car quickly enough. Upgrading to a more aggressive pad can solve this issue as well.
Conversely, if you get a pad that is too aggressive, or one that outmatches your tires, you'll hit ABS in lots of braking zones. This is a different issue altogether, but still one that needs to be addressed.
Bottom line, the pads and tires are a system that need to be considered together.
So, my $0.02 is that you should try to pick a different set of pads that are more track oriented. There are a lot of good recommendations in this thread. I always used Pagid or PFC in the past, but have switch to PFC exclusively now.
-td
PS: Personally, I wouldn't worry about the fluid. Any DOT 4 will do the job. If you want track specific, try Motul600. When you have the right balance of tires and pads, you won't boil this stuff for a LONG time. And when you do, you can check out my other threads on brake cooling to solve that issue as well.]
They symptoms you describe appear to be boiling the fluid in at least one caliper. I suspect the front. Folks have identified a bunch of different potential causes in this thread. Having done tons of upgrades to my 996 back in the day, I suspect that it's the wrong combination of tire/pad, coupled with lack of cooling at the front. IMO, there is no meaningful or worthwhile way to cool the rear brakes, especially given the brake bias of the 996.
Stock pads have a very specific operating range. They work awesome in low to medium temp scenarios. They have good cold bite, but after they get over their optimum operating temps, they lose efficiency. And this is where boiling fluid with a street setup starts. The high temps cause the brakes to have less braking torque, so you try to brake more. But that increases the temps making them brake still less. And, much of that extra heat gets pushed into the calipers. A second symptom the lower operating range is a longer braking zones. The longer the zone, the longer heat will be generated. That's when you start to see boiling fluid. One caliper of boiled fluid will result in a soft pedal. [note: you can simply pump, pump, pump the brakes because the other corners still have some braking force left. It just might save your car. (The common statement that you have "no brakes" with a soft pedal is an overstatement because you do, just not what you expect)]
One solution for all of this is to simply upgrade to a pad with a higher operating range. The brakes will still generate heat, but they won't get into the same "meltdown" mode as street pads. Endurance pads are an optimal choice because they have a broad operating range as well as decent initial bite. Different pads have different heat/torque as well as release characteristics. But at your level, you probably won't be able to tell the difference, honestly. [For example, this manifests itself in long braking zones where the heat curve rises significantly, which might also increase torque with certain pads. In some instances, this will result in front ABS kicking in although you haven't increased pedal pressure. So, you need to reduce pedal pressure in the braking zone slightly to have the same amount of braking force without triggering ABS. Some folks don't like this and would rather have a more consistent braking feel in one zone. Similarly, the same concept plays out with trail braking because the torque curve is impacted by pedal pressure. That is, the timing/cadence of your trail braking can be impacted by pad choice. But, like I said, most novice and intermediate drivers, and even many advance drivers can't tell the difference between pads. They just drive what they have. And there's nothing wrong with that.]
Another way this can manifest itself is when your "track" pads are not aggressive enough for your tires. For example, a set of "OK" track pads will suffer the same issues as above when you have sticky R-comp tires. That is, the tire will just roll and roll and roll in a braking zone because the brakes can't generate enough torque to slow the car quickly enough. Upgrading to a more aggressive pad can solve this issue as well.
Conversely, if you get a pad that is too aggressive, or one that outmatches your tires, you'll hit ABS in lots of braking zones. This is a different issue altogether, but still one that needs to be addressed.
Bottom line, the pads and tires are a system that need to be considered together.
So, my $0.02 is that you should try to pick a different set of pads that are more track oriented. There are a lot of good recommendations in this thread. I always used Pagid or PFC in the past, but have switch to PFC exclusively now.
-td
PS: Personally, I wouldn't worry about the fluid. Any DOT 4 will do the job. If you want track specific, try Motul600. When you have the right balance of tires and pads, you won't boil this stuff for a LONG time. And when you do, you can check out my other threads on brake cooling to solve that issue as well.]
Hello, I need some help diagnosing
I had my first track event this year yesterday, Stock pads. ATE Typ 200 changed 2 weeks ago, full system flush. My braking performance was poor at best. 15 min into my third session, coming hot into a turn, I hit the brakes and my foot went to the floor so I went strait off track. My brakes were sub-par all day, poor stopping power. I checked the pads and they are fine, like 5mm all around, a little more in front. After I changed and flushed the fluid, the pedal was firm from the top of the range of motion. Now, after the event the pedal is non-existant until about halfway down. The braking performance is poor. There is no leaking anywhere. One thing that might be helpful, a few bleeders were clogged.
Any recommendation? I am going to flush again, to see if that fixes it, If ot. I really don't know what else it could be, so does anyone know what I should check?
Thanks
I had my first track event this year yesterday, Stock pads. ATE Typ 200 changed 2 weeks ago, full system flush. My braking performance was poor at best. 15 min into my third session, coming hot into a turn, I hit the brakes and my foot went to the floor so I went strait off track. My brakes were sub-par all day, poor stopping power. I checked the pads and they are fine, like 5mm all around, a little more in front. After I changed and flushed the fluid, the pedal was firm from the top of the range of motion. Now, after the event the pedal is non-existant until about halfway down. The braking performance is poor. There is no leaking anywhere. One thing that might be helpful, a few bleeders were clogged.
Any recommendation? I am going to flush again, to see if that fixes it, If ot. I really don't know what else it could be, so does anyone know what I should check?
Thanks
05-02-2018, 12:03 AM
#28
Rennlist Member
But track pads and good fluid are important for a successful track event.
05-07-2018, 03:44 PM
#29
Just another data point in support of the idea that you don't need expensive equipment to track:
2 days of HPDE at Watkins Glen this weekend, ran 8 sessions in the Advanced/Instructor group lapping in the ~2:17-2:19 range, and 2 sessions at ~70% in the B group to show my student around. OE Textar pads and Ate Typ 200 fluid. Zero instances of fade, deadly consistent pedal every single time, can tell zero difference between braking on lap 1 and the end of the session. Used about 40% of the pad life this weekend.. Will be good for 1 more weekend and then they'll go in the bin and be replaced for $160.
To each his own, but cheap and reliable is the ticket for me!
2 days of HPDE at Watkins Glen this weekend, ran 8 sessions in the Advanced/Instructor group lapping in the ~2:17-2:19 range, and 2 sessions at ~70% in the B group to show my student around. OE Textar pads and Ate Typ 200 fluid. Zero instances of fade, deadly consistent pedal every single time, can tell zero difference between braking on lap 1 and the end of the session. Used about 40% of the pad life this weekend.. Will be good for 1 more weekend and then they'll go in the bin and be replaced for $160.
To each his own, but cheap and reliable is the ticket for me!
05-08-2018, 10:01 AM
#30
Echoing dkraige's comments.
I drove about 70 laps at Grand Bend this past weekend. The course has two straightaways that require threshold braking from ~180km/h to ~60km/h (~110mph to ~40mph). The temperature of my rotors measured almost 400 degrees Celsius when I got off the track. No problems at all using street fluid (ATE 200) and pads. I used to run the OE textar pads, but this time I was on Cool Carbon pads. I didn't notice any brake fade or decrease in braking performance during any of the 15 minute sessions.
I would probably consider switching to race pads if/when I upgrade to racing tires, but with street tires the OE pads are fine (and cheap).
I drove about 70 laps at Grand Bend this past weekend. The course has two straightaways that require threshold braking from ~180km/h to ~60km/h (~110mph to ~40mph). The temperature of my rotors measured almost 400 degrees Celsius when I got off the track. No problems at all using street fluid (ATE 200) and pads. I used to run the OE textar pads, but this time I was on Cool Carbon pads. I didn't notice any brake fade or decrease in braking performance during any of the 15 minute sessions.
I would probably consider switching to race pads if/when I upgrade to racing tires, but with street tires the OE pads are fine (and cheap).