IMS RMS Preventive HELP
02-01-2018, 01:48 AM
#1
IMS RMS Preventive HELP
I'm going to try and keep this short since I have an onslaught of questions that tightly correlate to each other and i'm hoping to get some guidance in to what my next move should be.
The Car: 2001 Carrera C2 Cab, 117k miles, 6-speed, original engine, original Dual Row IMS, Joe Gibbs DT-40 since 96k
The car had developed quite the oil leak from the bell housing, and since I was growing more and more concerned with now knowing what IMS I had in there, and more importantly didn't know if it was my IMS or RMS leaking, I dropped the transmission and began my adventure, now for my questions
I pulled and replaced the RMS using a homemade PVC cap, I tapped it in and checked the spacing with a micrometer and its between 12.96-13.13 mm all around, is this "with in" range, or is that even a thing for these seals? The ruler I have is really tough to get a dead on measurement.
I wanted to replace my IMS with an IMS Solution as Jake has recommended, however I didn't get my cam readings on my duramertic and I'm very confident my plastic chain rails have never been replaced, so I ask: Should just leave the IMS alone? Do i need to worry about deviation at all if i just go with the standard LN upgraded bearing? I don't have any plastic in my oil, but frankly have no idea what my deviation is; I've been running DT-40 since i bought the car in 2011, but like all plastic parts they just wear, I have no check engine lights on now, if i put the solution in, and get a code, is it as simple as replacing the pads? or do i have to full on Re-time the car?
With my RMS replaced, should I just button the whole thing up and drive it, check the cam deviation, and just plan on replacing the chain tensioners and the IMS down the road?
Every feel free to jump in, simply trying to get all my options in front of me so anyone with similar past experiences or wisdom would be greatly appreciated.
The Car: 2001 Carrera C2 Cab, 117k miles, 6-speed, original engine, original Dual Row IMS, Joe Gibbs DT-40 since 96k
The car had developed quite the oil leak from the bell housing, and since I was growing more and more concerned with now knowing what IMS I had in there, and more importantly didn't know if it was my IMS or RMS leaking, I dropped the transmission and began my adventure, now for my questions
I pulled and replaced the RMS using a homemade PVC cap, I tapped it in and checked the spacing with a micrometer and its between 12.96-13.13 mm all around, is this "with in" range, or is that even a thing for these seals? The ruler I have is really tough to get a dead on measurement.
I wanted to replace my IMS with an IMS Solution as Jake has recommended, however I didn't get my cam readings on my duramertic and I'm very confident my plastic chain rails have never been replaced, so I ask: Should just leave the IMS alone? Do i need to worry about deviation at all if i just go with the standard LN upgraded bearing? I don't have any plastic in my oil, but frankly have no idea what my deviation is; I've been running DT-40 since i bought the car in 2011, but like all plastic parts they just wear, I have no check engine lights on now, if i put the solution in, and get a code, is it as simple as replacing the pads? or do i have to full on Re-time the car?
With my RMS replaced, should I just button the whole thing up and drive it, check the cam deviation, and just plan on replacing the chain tensioners and the IMS down the road?
Every feel free to jump in, simply trying to get all my options in front of me so anyone with similar past experiences or wisdom would be greatly appreciated.
02-01-2018, 03:00 AM
#2
It's more important for the RMS to seat perpendicular around the crank than getting exactly 13.00mm. Around 13mm is good.
The IMS Solution will not change the current timing (or cam deviation) if you follow the procedure to park the engine at TDC and lock the bank 1 cams before you remove the IMSB flange.
You may need to change your cam pads but that is independent of the IMSB retrofit you are performing.
The IMS Solution will not change the current timing (or cam deviation) if you follow the procedure to park the engine at TDC and lock the bank 1 cams before you remove the IMSB flange.
You may need to change your cam pads but that is independent of the IMSB retrofit you are performing.
02-01-2018, 11:21 AM
#3
Rennlist Member
Two things. The RMS needs to be installed with the proper tool. Also, a genuine seal should be used. Do not use the aftermarket ones. We have had several shops tell us they have had to pull gearboxes and replace seals after installing non-genuine Porsche seals. Spend the few extra dollars.
That said, if you get an IMS Solution from LN, we do offer free tool rental (including the rms tool):
https://lnengineering.com/tools-rental
That said, if you get an IMS Solution from LN, we do offer free tool rental (including the rms tool):
https://lnengineering.com/tools-rental
02-01-2018, 11:43 AM
#4
Drifting
Now that is an awesome offer. Thank you Charles!
01slvr911 - If you're going to replace it, spend the $20 on the right seal, and use a tool that gets it right the first time. The labor and hassle involved isn't worth doing it differently. If you're going to do it, do it right.
A difference of fractions of a mm doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but what do I know. For $20, I'd redo it and make sure it is right.
I am nowhere remotely close to an expert, but I'll repeat something I read: the seating depth is important because it lets the seal ride on a "fresh" portion of the bearing surface. But again, I'm just parroting, and maybe even getting it wrong.
I suspect that you're on your own deciding whether to replace the IMSB without prequalifying it. I suspect the answer is probably that it isn't ideal. Totally your call though.
You could certainly replace the IMSB with The Solution. Then button that back up and preventatively replace the tensioners/pads before you start it up. Expensive way to do it, but you'd know it was all refreshed.
I think your question about buttoning it back up and going back in later boils down to personal choice: are you willing to either pay for or do the labor to do this again later, or is it better for you to be done with it all now. It's a bit of labor, time and work, but if you don't mind doing the work and have the tools (or have the cash to pay someone else to do it), it isn't that huge a deal. I opted to not replace a 2 year old LN IMSB retrofit on mine, because it was in good shape, and I don't mind going back in later to redo it. Personal preference.
01slvr911 - If you're going to replace it, spend the $20 on the right seal, and use a tool that gets it right the first time. The labor and hassle involved isn't worth doing it differently. If you're going to do it, do it right.
A difference of fractions of a mm doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but what do I know. For $20, I'd redo it and make sure it is right.
I am nowhere remotely close to an expert, but I'll repeat something I read: the seating depth is important because it lets the seal ride on a "fresh" portion of the bearing surface. But again, I'm just parroting, and maybe even getting it wrong.
I suspect that you're on your own deciding whether to replace the IMSB without prequalifying it. I suspect the answer is probably that it isn't ideal. Totally your call though.
You could certainly replace the IMSB with The Solution. Then button that back up and preventatively replace the tensioners/pads before you start it up. Expensive way to do it, but you'd know it was all refreshed.
I think your question about buttoning it back up and going back in later boils down to personal choice: are you willing to either pay for or do the labor to do this again later, or is it better for you to be done with it all now. It's a bit of labor, time and work, but if you don't mind doing the work and have the tools (or have the cash to pay someone else to do it), it isn't that huge a deal. I opted to not replace a 2 year old LN IMSB retrofit on mine, because it was in good shape, and I don't mind going back in later to redo it. Personal preference.
02-01-2018, 02:33 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Now that is an awesome offer. Thank you Charles!
01slvr911 - If you're going to replace it, spend the $20 on the right seal, and use a tool that gets it right the first time. The labor and hassle involved isn't worth doing it differently. If you're going to do it, do it right.
A difference of fractions of a mm doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but what do I know. For $20, I'd redo it and make sure it is right.
I am nowhere remotely close to an expert, but I'll repeat something I read: the seating depth is important because it lets the seal ride on a "fresh" portion of the bearing surface. But again, I'm just parroting, and maybe even getting it wrong.
I suspect that you're on your own deciding whether to replace the IMSB without prequalifying it. I suspect the answer is probably that it isn't ideal. Totally your call though.
You could certainly replace the IMSB with The Solution. Then button that back up and preventatively replace the tensioners/pads before you start it up. Expensive way to do it, but you'd know it was all refreshed.
I think your question about buttoning it back up and going back in later boils down to personal choice: are you willing to either pay for or do the labor to do this again later, or is it better for you to be done with it all now. It's a bit of labor, time and work, but if you don't mind doing the work and have the tools (or have the cash to pay someone else to do it), it isn't that huge a deal. I opted to not replace a 2 year old LN IMSB retrofit on mine, because it was in good shape, and I don't mind going back in later to redo it. Personal preference.
01slvr911 - If you're going to replace it, spend the $20 on the right seal, and use a tool that gets it right the first time. The labor and hassle involved isn't worth doing it differently. If you're going to do it, do it right.
A difference of fractions of a mm doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but what do I know. For $20, I'd redo it and make sure it is right.
I am nowhere remotely close to an expert, but I'll repeat something I read: the seating depth is important because it lets the seal ride on a "fresh" portion of the bearing surface. But again, I'm just parroting, and maybe even getting it wrong.
I suspect that you're on your own deciding whether to replace the IMSB without prequalifying it. I suspect the answer is probably that it isn't ideal. Totally your call though.
You could certainly replace the IMSB with The Solution. Then button that back up and preventatively replace the tensioners/pads before you start it up. Expensive way to do it, but you'd know it was all refreshed.
I think your question about buttoning it back up and going back in later boils down to personal choice: are you willing to either pay for or do the labor to do this again later, or is it better for you to be done with it all now. It's a bit of labor, time and work, but if you don't mind doing the work and have the tools (or have the cash to pay someone else to do it), it isn't that huge a deal. I opted to not replace a 2 year old LN IMSB retrofit on mine, because it was in good shape, and I don't mind going back in later to redo it. Personal preference.
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02-01-2018, 03:46 PM
#8
Thanks for all the response!
I did indeed buy Porsche Genuine, i don't cheap out when it comes to the parts.
Ahsai, why does the pre check for the IMS Solution have a warning about checking cam deviation because it can trigger a CEL after, i assumed it was because it can make it worse.
Does anyone know if I change the pads, do I have to retime the car? Does it make a difference if i install the solution, start the car, get the code, and then replace the pads?
Charles, thanks for the info about the tool rental; that's great to know; can you further explain about the camshaft deviation getting worse with the Solution install? I've read around and saw that Jake is VERY strict when it comes to following the precheck for qualification.
I did indeed buy Porsche Genuine, i don't cheap out when it comes to the parts.
Ahsai, why does the pre check for the IMS Solution have a warning about checking cam deviation because it can trigger a CEL after, i assumed it was because it can make it worse.
Does anyone know if I change the pads, do I have to retime the car? Does it make a difference if i install the solution, start the car, get the code, and then replace the pads?
Charles, thanks for the info about the tool rental; that's great to know; can you further explain about the camshaft deviation getting worse with the Solution install? I've read around and saw that Jake is VERY strict when it comes to following the precheck for qualification.
02-01-2018, 04:25 PM
#9
Drifting
I don't want to rabbit hole this thread. I didn't pull the installed LN Engineering dual row classic IMS bearing, I removed the IMS flange and inspected the installed bearing. The LN bearing doesn't have a grease seal, so I did visual inspection, and evaluated for wear and deflection. I'm not recommending you or anyone else do that. It was just my call at the time.
02-01-2018, 04:28 PM
#10
The warning says:
"Five (5) chain M96 engines are known for high camshaft deviation values due to abnormally high wear found on the timing chain adjuster wear pads. This can occur at low mileage points. Camshaft deviations found over 6 degrees must be addressed prior to performing the IMS Retrofit. Failure to do this may result in a loss of valve timing during the procedure, or a Check Engine Light illumination immediately following the IMS Retrofit. This will be due to camshaft deviations that are operating out of range."
Sounds like if you started with a larger than 6 degree cam deviation on a 5-chain engine, that will increase the chance of timing change during the retrofit procedure. Have you checked with Charles and/or Jake about this?
Sounds it's the property of the engine and it's not because you're using IMS Solution instead of other retrofits.
Changing the pads require the cams (and the variocam actuators) to be removed so you will need to re-time the engine afterwards.
"Five (5) chain M96 engines are known for high camshaft deviation values due to abnormally high wear found on the timing chain adjuster wear pads. This can occur at low mileage points. Camshaft deviations found over 6 degrees must be addressed prior to performing the IMS Retrofit. Failure to do this may result in a loss of valve timing during the procedure, or a Check Engine Light illumination immediately following the IMS Retrofit. This will be due to camshaft deviations that are operating out of range."
Sounds like if you started with a larger than 6 degree cam deviation on a 5-chain engine, that will increase the chance of timing change during the retrofit procedure. Have you checked with Charles and/or Jake about this?
Sounds it's the property of the engine and it's not because you're using IMS Solution instead of other retrofits.
Changing the pads require the cams (and the variocam actuators) to be removed so you will need to re-time the engine afterwards.
02-02-2018, 08:23 AM
#11
Rennlist Member
Thanks for all the response!
I did indeed buy Porsche Genuine, i don't cheap out when it comes to the parts.
Ahsai, why does the pre check for the IMS Solution have a warning about checking cam deviation because it can trigger a CEL after, i assumed it was because it can make it worse.
Does anyone know if I change the pads, do I have to retime the car? Does it make a difference if i install the solution, start the car, get the code, and then replace the pads?
Charles, thanks for the info about the tool rental; that's great to know; can you further explain about the camshaft deviation getting worse with the Solution install? I've read around and saw that Jake is VERY strict when it comes to following the precheck for qualification.
I did indeed buy Porsche Genuine, i don't cheap out when it comes to the parts.
Ahsai, why does the pre check for the IMS Solution have a warning about checking cam deviation because it can trigger a CEL after, i assumed it was because it can make it worse.
Does anyone know if I change the pads, do I have to retime the car? Does it make a difference if i install the solution, start the car, get the code, and then replace the pads?
Charles, thanks for the info about the tool rental; that's great to know; can you further explain about the camshaft deviation getting worse with the Solution install? I've read around and saw that Jake is VERY strict when it comes to following the precheck for qualification.
02-02-2018, 05:46 PM
#12
Having done the Solution install and cam chain tensioner pads, I would highly recommend dropping the motor for these procedures (I’m not sure if you’ve done that yet). Originally I had only planned on doing the tensioner pads but decided to do the solution “while I was in there” because I couldn’t accurately determine how many miles were on the LN classic dual row retrofit (which had been done prior to my purchase of the car). ** Be sure to do a hard reset of the DME after doing the work, as my CEL stayed on after my work was completed. It didn’t go away until about 30-40 mi. after I did the reset. It hasn’t come back for well over a thousand miles now and the car continues to run great. Good luck
02-03-2018, 02:50 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
This is going to sound incredibly ignorant, but how easy is it to time these cars? Is it just a matter of lining up the slits in the back of cam straight up and down when you reinstall everything and tighten the cam gears on the other end? Again, I apologize in advance for the stupid question.
I'd suggest you get a good service manual and take the information right from the horses mouth.
Maybe even Jake Raby's class (my plan) for the best information on the m96 engine rebuilds.
