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Great post, thank you! I'm going to add this 'oil pan gunk service' to my next oil change. Another example of how an engine tick may be solved for less than $200 bucks instead of $15,000 - $20,000.
When the kitchen sink drains slowly you don't have to replace all the plumbing in your entire house. A concept many infected with M96 hysteria can't seem to grasp.
Porsche 996 best sports car value on planet earth.
IF this Defoamer issue is of interest - check out the upgraded units from the 997. Most of the good Deep Sump kits include them - for a reason ?
If the cause of the ticking was oil pressure so low (partial blockage in oil pickup pictured previously) that some Lifters collapsed, there may be other problems. Oil starvation that is severe enough to cause Lifters to collapse is serious. For example , the lifter carriers may have become worn/scored.The dry ,steel Lifters running in soft aluminum alloy Lifter Carriers is not good.That mechanism requires high pressure to maintain the oil film between the carrier and the Lifter.It is that pressure that feeds through one tiny hole in the side of the Lifter to eventually reach the ball valve in the Tappet. If the pressure is too low, the tappet collapses under impact and ticking results.
this image is of the inside of the oil sump you can see the two black cylinders on either side of the sump those are the defoamers. i guess the oil is pumped trough them when it returns to the sump and it spins the oil through the cylinder to remove air bubbles from the oil. the tube that you can see that is going upwards at a 45 degree angle from the center of the engine, that is the tube that was completely full of debris. the defoamers are only held on with 2 bolts and once removed they actually come apart into 3 pieces, so they should be very easy to inspect. while you are in there i would also take your oil pickup tube off and inspect it closely, as even after picking out all the larger debris i took the tube off and getting it out into the sunlight i was able to see a lot more debris that was stuck in other parts of the screen.
i hope this helps. when i was searching for info on the AOS/defoamers I was hard pressed to find anything online or in the forums.
First off thanks for the insight. ill look into the upgraded defoamers as i am interested in adding a deep sump of some sort. I did think about the lifter carrier being an issue the last time i had the cam cover off i inspected the carrier with the lifters in and out (especially the cylinder with the failed lifter. in the picture i posted above of the engine you can see that i made a small sharpie mark on one of the lifter tubes. this was the lifter that had failed. i noticed no play or signs of adverse wear on any of the carrier tubes. there were no score marks or areas of the aluminum that appeared worn. (Albeit i used no technical equipment to check the tubes). there was nothing that appeared problematic. And actually the oil feed coming from the head feeds all four lifters from the same feed simutaneously. so i dont know why i was having a problem with just that one lifter collapsing. this whole problem overall still boggles my mind especially the fact that my oil pressure was reading good/normal. I do notice slightly better oil pressure now but not significantly.
INA lifters are a bit of a mystery if you follow the Threads. Just replace the bad ones. I fitted 24 new ones in my rebuild. Several were bad immediately i ran the engine . A few others deteriorated quickly.Off with the Camshaft Covers . Subsequent testing of the suspects proved them unuseable. So I replaced all of them - again ! And I am not the only one to have had such experience despite clinically clean engine, correct oil and Lifters
The measuring of the Lifter Carrier bores for unacceptable wear is hyper precise. Ovality and taper.
INA lifters are a bit of a mystery if you follow the Threads. Just replace the bad ones. I fitted 24 new ones in my rebuild. Several were bad immediately i ran the engine . A few others deteriorated quickly.Off with the Camshaft Covers . Subsequent testing of the suspects proved them unuseable. So I replaced all of them - again ! And I am not the only one to have had such experience despite clinically clean engine, correct oil and Lifters
The measuring of the Lifter Carrier bores for unacceptable wear is hyper precise. Ovality and taper.
And by "bad ones" I take it that they wont hold pressure/pressure up and the piston bottoms out?
Yes, But you need to make a test rig to be sure. I mentioned the procedure in a previous Thread.Basically use a drill press+tool to actuate the tappet.Measure the force to compress it a few thou.and compare with 'good' ones. Try to revive soft ones by submerging them in oil and operating them. I failed to completely resurrect any bad ones. Some would improve but only if they remained submerged(unrealistic) .Others never improved.
There is something drastically wrong at INA with quality control in China. Others have had the same problem - some good/bad in every batch. Most of the 90k mile old ones were still O.K. They were Made in Germany.They look identical to the new ones but clearly they had much better q.c. then.
Replacing all 24 lifters is not fun !
There is no official test for new lifters.I was unable to make any of the last batch of 24 fail in the Drill Press test - so here's hoping ....
There is an odd feature of new lifters(not old ones!) that tick immediately after installation. It has been mentioned elsewhere. I replaced an entire set of new lifters because some were ticking immediately after installation. The replacements also had a few thatt ticked. After a few thousand miles ,they became quiet.
My theory is that I had failed to completely fill them with oil prior to install. The residual air inside was the problem. With sufficient heat and oil pressure, the air was purged. . In my case, and with the benefit of hindsight, I should have run the first se of lifters for more than a few hundred miles before replacing them.(again). YEMV.
Last edited by Schnell Gelb; 11-01-2018 at 11:12 AM.
Thanks for the post. I started hearing similar symptoms on my 2000 C4 about 6 weeks ago. I was hearing the ticking sound once the engine was warm, and while idling at a stop where the engine sounds would echo off anything close by. The similar symptom of the ticking going away at idle as well. Just got the car back from the 60K service with no feedback on the issue. Another shop recommended I check what oil was put in the car against the owners manual recommendation. The last two oil changes used 5W 40 synthetic. Owners manual recommends 10W30 or 40, but no 5W with the summer temperatures in MD. I had 10W30 synthetic put in and the ticking has gone away. The opinion of the shop that did the 60K service is that the heavier oil is just masking another problem. The answer appears to be, "stay tuned". I will keep an eye on it, probably drop the oil pan at the next oil change and inspect, and in the meantime, just drive it and enjoy.
Thanks for the thread Nathan. I believe I have a similar problem with a 2000 Boxter S. The debris in the oil pan includes some metal, some plastic bits and some silicone rubber. The picture looks similar to yours.
My question is: Can I replace the tensioner pads without removing the engine?
I wish I had read this before last week when I dropped my oil pan. I did an oil change and since the car has high miles (182k) and apparently on the original engine I wanted to check it out. No metal debris at all, and now I know that the few small plastic bits are my chain pads. I cleaned out the sump pickup without removing it, and didn't know to check the "defoamers" or swirl pots also.. oh well, pulling the pan is easy and I want to install an X51 baffle anyway.
props to you for perseverance.. and thanks for sharing!
Thanks for the thread Nathan. I believe I have a similar problem with a 2000 Boxter S. The debris in the oil pan includes some metal, some plastic bits and some silicone rubber. The picture looks similar to yours.
My question is: Can I replace the tensioner pads without removing the engine?
Yes they can. Lower the engine as much as possible. That said, the metal in sump would not be connected to the variocam wear pads. I'd be concerned about another failing component.
Yes they can. Lower the engine as much as possible. That said, the metal in sump would not be connected to the variocam wear pads. I'd be concerned about another failing component.
Thanks Moburki,
The metal has me worried too. Oddly the engine shows no codes and will still fire up. A real mystery. I have a sound/video recording which I took before dropping the oil pan, but it won't upload to this site, I will edit and try again later. The drive belt was removed so the sound is not from any external source.
The sound is intermittent at idle and it is a loud rapping/clacking sound. I did not rev it past idle for fear of causing more damage.
Gregg
Thanks Moburki,
The metal has me worried too. Oddly the engine shows no codes and will still fire up. A real mystery. I have a sound/video recording which I took before dropping the oil pan, but it won't upload to this site, I will edit and try again later. The drive belt was removed so the sound is not from any external source.
The sound is intermittent at idle and it is a loud rapping/clacking sound. I did not rev it past idle for fear of causing more damage.
Gregg
Several threads on here with those symptoms, many times without and metallic debris. The possibilities are numerous to say the least..
Good luck sorting it out!
Several threads on here with those symptoms, many times without and metallic debris. The possibilities are numerous to say the least..
Good luck sorting it out!
Thanks, Luckily, it is approaching winter here so I have several months to sort it out. Watch for more as I dig in.
Gregg.
08-27-2017, 11:17 AM
