Skwerl

It's back up for all those who secretly wanted to pay more than $217k.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/331666763435

tcsracing1

Buyer is looking for payday.

Realistically, at $217k you can buy a really clean 993 turbo.

Not sure i would want to pay $250k for a beater TT-S....

cobalt

Considering the supper clean TTS's are fetching around $400k. You can buy this one for $250 do a complete windows out respray, engine rebuild with thorough refresh of hardware for under $50k and have a beautiful and rare car and still be able to drive it with $100k in your pocket.

993TurboS

I don't know where the really clean TTS is for 400k. I only see one with 30k miles offered at 425. I also see a post in the classifieds by a guy looking for one and willing to pay 500k. I suspect if you call Sloan, RPM, etc, you will not be able to find a TTS with low miles for 400k. If someone knows where the clean 400k TTS cars are, I'd love to hear it.

I do own a TTS and have no intention to sell, but I enjoy watching everyone on the sideline say that various cars are worth x or y and yet if you actually try to find and buy one, there never seems to be any support for the assertions. If you are a person who hates the color blue, you may think a blue car is worth 50% less than a grey car, but if the market trades blue at a 50% premium, all that means is that you are not the market. My car has 30k miles and I have had tons of offers. At one point I thought I'd be willing to sell at 400k, but that is no longer the case. That was when I first got an offer for 250k. I don't know if my car is worth 400k in the market, but I know it is over 250, because I have offers from guys I know are legit at that level. I also know that my personal valuation is over 400k.

When I bought my car for 30% premium to a regular TT price back in 2006, and it had higher than normal miles for a TTS, the general consensus was that a TTS with over 5k miles was no longer collectible. I am not a collector, but thought that the premium would not fall, even if I drove it. As it turns out, the more collectible a car gets, the less the miles matter at a point. Look at the million dollar cars that are over 30 years old. Miles are almost irrelevant, as is original paint. When the cars are 5-10 years old, the miles and condition seem more important. Once the cars get really expensive, people restore them at a very high level and the market likes the perfect restoration.

I don't know if these prices are a bubble or not, and I don't really care other than as a spectator who enjoys watching. I just think it is funny to see people who a few years ago would have said it was crazy to buy a higher mileage TTS for 100k now make fun of a guy who has probably more than doubled his money on that stupid purchase he made.

Quadcammer

If you buy the car to drive it, then I find the turbo S a huge waste of money.

You can get a 100k mile 993TT for $100k, or less. Do the same refresh, and you save $250k. collectors aren't looking for 100k mile cars, regardless.

The difference in rarity seems like a moot point.

993TurboS

7 years ago, you could buy a 30k mile TT for 80k and a 30k mile TTS for 110k. 30k is very high miles for a TTS, so you could say that the guy who bought the 30k mile TTS wasted $30k on the S premium because the S is useless as a collector car with 30k miles.

Now, assume that those two buyers drove their cars an extra 70k miles over the next 7 years. You could say that the S driver destroyed whatever collectability remained in his high mile S by moving it from 30k miles to 100k miles over those 7 years.

Today, if a 100k mile TT is $100k and a 100k mile TTS is $200k, then in what sense did the S buyer waste his $30k premium 7 years ago? In what sense did he destroy the S premium by driving it when the premium has increased as he put more miles on it?

cobalt

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say. As stupid as it sounds I always lusted after the 964 turbo S package car simply for the side vents and rear wing. If it came in cobalt i would have one LOL. I am the same way with the 993TTS. I personally prefer the rear wing over the factory one but that is me, add the side vents and you have me. I actually purchased the only known to exist 964 turbo S tail with all the parts needed to mount it to my car but couldn't find anyone willing to paint it without blending so that killed it for me. I purchased my 3.6T and my 928GTS purely for the cosmetic upgrades to cars that aren't much different than the standard models previously sold. I know it is purely cosmetic but I would pay up for it that is just my preference.

Yes you can modify a car but unless I do a full gut and build to my spec I am true believer in simple bolt on mods only. As far as buying the turbo S for a driver or performance upgrade I agree with you. I did a few bolt on mods to my 3.6T and my car pumps out 450BHP vs the turbo S's 385BHP I have as much power to the wheels as they do at the crank. Modifying an S defeats the purpose of owning a car whose value is based solely on its rarity and originality.

Fact is there are people out there that don't care about what they spend and just want a car like this to drive and be seen in. If the values continue to rise as they have a high mileage turbo S may prove to be more valuable than a low mileage Turbo just for exclusivity. If you modify a TT to look like a TTS you saved money but threw it away equally at the same time. I know of a number of TTS modified TT's and they always sold for considerably less than if it were stock. As where if you restore a true TTS (assuming you have the money to throw away) you might not get hurt if these cars rise to $600k for pristine examples you may find that you may make a buck. This is all speculation however I am basing it on the values of the 964 Turbo S flachbau. There are a few of them that have been severely damaged and restored and despite the mileage and history the repaired turbo S is worth considerably more than a lower mileage stock 3.6T so I would assume this would work similarly with the lower production numbers of the 993TTS vs the high numbers of 993TT's made.

Well I have seen your car several times and I thought it was worth spending up for it. IIRC I believe we had that conversation a few years back when we discussed the future of these. My friend had his 94 turbo S flachbau there. A car I knew I should ahve purchased but didn't have the cash at the time. I knew that car would appreciate but never expected them to bring $600k-$800k+. At the time Steve had the 993TT in Riviera blue with 600 miles on it along with 4 or 5 964 turbo S's. I thought he was brilliant for buying them and always knew they would go up in value but for some reason he sold them before the market moved.

I have a friend who manages a private collection and he was about to trade in his 8k mile 993TTS for $300k last year I told him he was nuts and ended up selling it for over $400k but the owner could care less if he lost or gained a penny it was just pocket change to him. As he took delivery of his Pegani Huayra, 991TTS, 918, and Huricon in the same week along with numerous others.

Lets face it very few of us here purchased these cars for anything but enjoyment and entertainment. I know some of us even in this thread that have added newer cars to their collection to drive as these now sit in the garage more.

I only care what the value of my car is worth for insurance purposes. I stopped driving my turbo more than a a few hundred to a thousand miles a year way back when I purchased other cars and I don't drive any of them more than a thousand a year just because I don't have that much time to drive any of them more. Having a few to spread the mileage over actually worked to my advantage and assuming prices continue to rise eventually I will have to sell rather than just have them sit there. In many ways I would rather have a higher mileage car with paintwork so if something happened to it the car would just be repaired and its value unaltered. Having all original paint can be a burden.

I went on a drive with friends a few weekends ago, it was fun but at the same time nuts. I mostly save my driving for the track now and that is why I built a car that fit my needs both cosmetically and handles better than any GT3 or TT I have driven. Unfortunately even that has me wondering I have had people offer me over 6 figures for it and I have to just shake my head but I can't allow it to impact my enjoyment. I built it as a track car and that is how it will be enjoyed.

Based on the absurdly insane things I have seen people spend money on lately I have no doubt someone will buy this car and use it however they see fit.

993TurboS

Well said. I also passed on a 964 package car that was the same price as a 993TTS at the time, perhaps even a bit cheaper. I already had a 964 and wanted a 993. I still prefer my car personally, but financially would have been much better off with the 964.

I don't know if the market is primed for a crash, but if we get a continuation of what has been going on for the past few years, this TTS at 220k will look cheap in retrospect, even vs. a 100k mile TT.

doublecabmel

993TurboS always nails it! Of course I'm biased having 2 high mileage Turbo S cars. (25k & 48k)

cobalt

My only concern for a "crash" would involve the hedge fund guys. They have invested heavily in these cars like wines and artwork this stuff will be dumped if the market turns. Everyone else I am not worried about but if there is a sudden glut of clean pristine cars on the market that won't be good for anyone.

At least we got into this early enough that no matter what happens we will never be hurt. If these cars drop back down to where they were 5 years ago we will have much larger concerns than what the value of our toys are.

It would have been a tough call between the package and 993TTS. For me the exclusivity of both is huge but the package car up until recently was an unknown to most of the community. I had only seen one up until a few years ago there were several TTS's not far from me.

tcsracing1

Truth be known, id love to have a real S as a "driver".
Even if it is "fluff" over a regular turbo.

It would just be awesome porsche street candy!

ronnie993tt

I think there already is a glut of 993 tt's. 33 on cars.com last time I counted and this is the most I've ever seen there. Many are posted at ludicrously high prices so nothing is moving. Supply is there but so far asking prices are holding. We'll see what happens when old Janet starts bumping up rates, maybe by Christmas.

Quadcammer

what in the name of christ does 7 years ago have to do with today?

And even more so, what does a 30k mile car (7 years ago) have to do with a 100k mile car today? Furthermore, by most reasonable measures, a 30k mile 993 is considered pretty low mile.

A $30k premium for a turbo S with equivalent mileage is reasonable. $100k, in my opinion, is not, especially as a driver.

Finally, if you don't believe this is a bubble, which I do, then your 7 year ago argument may have some merit. I don't believe it does obviously.

cobalt

Not everyone is as sensible and pragmatic about their approach to these cars as you are.

I have my own interests and then I also focus on the market and how it reacts. I have numerous friends that collect and others that flip. There has been a complete market for these cars that exists outside our world and follows a different mindset. Not saying it makes rational sense but it exists.

Years ago mid 80's when I was importing cars through the grey market I had a taste of how these people work. Usually cars were traded among a rather large and connected group that all knew each other. The internet has changed all of that.

I don't see much change in how people are reacting the only difference is the pricing for specific cars has gone up and the gaps are much larger than before. So a 94 turbo S package car was fetching $110k while a comparable stock 3.6 Turbo was around $80k. What we are seeing now is identical to what happened back in the 80's. Everyone thinks they have gold and you have a lot of prospectors which have helped float that boat.

So long as the quality of cars available diminishes you will find people foolishly overspending for mediocre examples no doubt. Condition is so subjective. My car has 38k miles which would make many investors run yet you would be hard pressed to find a flaw. Most people are shocked when I tell them the mileage most say it looks like it is fresh off the showroom floor. I have seen cars with less than 10k miles be mistreated.

Everyone thinks their car is worth more but it is all about the right cars and they are few and far between. I agree if I purchased my friends Flachbau for $130k which was very nice but a bit rough and sold my turbo I no doubt would be selling for 6 times or more than what I paid. Also 38k miles on a stock turbo is considered average if not low and on a turbo S it would be considered high. More than 8k miles and it hurts its value and each car is in its own category so you can't group a 993 with a 993TT and or a 993TTS they each have their own unique group of buyers willing to pay $$ for different reasons.

No doubt a bubble is growing as people buy the wrong cars for too much money how that impacts the truly clean well maintained and low mileage cars is probably far less than you would imagine as the cars that are bloated fall back down to reality.

993TurboS

It is relevant because your rationale today, when applied to the past, would have led to you driving a less valuable car but paying more money for it. I.e., people who paid up the extra to get a TTS not only drove a TTS instead of a TT, but also ended up having a lower cost of ownership.

I don't know if the next 7 years will be the same as the last, but paying a huge premium for a TTS over a TT is clearly not always a waste of money, even when the TTS has high miles. Assuming this bid of 217k for the current 100k miles TTS is real, this guy made a killing by going the opposite way of the accepted idea that buying high mile collectibles is stupid.

I am certain that if I offered my high mile TTS for sale today, that I would at least double or triple what I paid for it, and it was and still is considered high miles. It might be true that low mile TT and TTSs went up by a similar amount, but it has certainly not been the case that higher mile TTSs haven't gone up while only the low mile cars have. My argument is that the older the cars get, the less miles matter and the more rarity, originality, and condition matter. If that is the case, this 217k car could be a much better buy than a 30k mile TT for 200k.

Ultimately, I was prepared when I bought the car for its value to go close to zero over time, so the fact that it hasn't has been a bonus. People pay premiums for all sorts of random stuff, the "S" is just one example. Why do people pay extra for a rare color? It doesn't affect performance, and is purely for show. Same thing with a lot of the options people pay for when they buy their Porsches. I think paying an extra 50% or even 100% for the S features is worth it. You may not, and hence you didn't buy it. Some corvette guy is laughing at all of us because his car is faster, newer, and cheaper.