Mileage Premiums and Discounts
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Mileage Premiums and Discounts
I'm hot in pursuit of a 993 Turbo. The market these days is just silly. I rue the day I sold my last air-cooled car ('96 C4S) and am now truly "paying" for the stupidity. Life lessons are sometimes painful - I'm not really complaining - I'm fortunate/privileged enough to actually have these kinds of "problems"!
Ok - enough philosophizing - let's talk the impact of mileage on value. Clearly the museum piece market is nuts. I don't want a museum piece. I wouldn't mind finding an uber low mile car (<10,000 miles) but wouldn't want to the premium most sellers are demanding. I'm thinking that uber low mileage premium at ASK is in the range of $30,000 - $50,000. And some folks are just simply asking silly +$300,000 money for these cars. Who knows what is actually happening with the actual sale price but it just makes no sense to pay that kind of premium, particularly if you intend to do what the folks from Stuttgart intended - drive it! Parking the car on a pedestal just seems like a waste.
The range between 10,000 - 20,000 miles is a real "tweener". These cars are commanding real money, at least at ASK, with many sellers contending they are truly collectors pieces. I'm not sure where the market really settles out in this range but the asking prices can be +$250,000.
The next range seems to cover cars up up to @ 30,000 miles. These cars seem to be in the $225,000 at ASK range.
Beyond 30,000 miles cars still seem to be at +$200,000 ASK but the ASK prices drop pretty dramatically > 35,000 miles. Finding a well-maintained, no stories car in this range is really challenging. I think lots of cars in this range get "fluffed" for sale but don't always check out.
Obviously the overall condition, ownership history, etc. greatly effect value as does the distinction between '96 and '97 cars.
I'd love to hear thoughts on where you all think values are and how you might approach mileage. Assuming the car is right buying in the range up to say 35,000 miles doesn't spook me but it does put pressure on how much I should pay for the "right" car because I'll be driving it, not daily, but also not "annually". I have a 2010 997.2 GT3 (just got it about 1 year ago) and a Challenge Stradale (which I've really enjoyed and made a few changes to make it more track focused). I'm no. 2 on my dealer's list for a GT4, so that may ultimately be the track toy. So . . . I may actually let GT3 go to a new home.
Thanks for the insights,
Rob
Ok - enough philosophizing - let's talk the impact of mileage on value. Clearly the museum piece market is nuts. I don't want a museum piece. I wouldn't mind finding an uber low mile car (<10,000 miles) but wouldn't want to the premium most sellers are demanding. I'm thinking that uber low mileage premium at ASK is in the range of $30,000 - $50,000. And some folks are just simply asking silly +$300,000 money for these cars. Who knows what is actually happening with the actual sale price but it just makes no sense to pay that kind of premium, particularly if you intend to do what the folks from Stuttgart intended - drive it! Parking the car on a pedestal just seems like a waste.
The range between 10,000 - 20,000 miles is a real "tweener". These cars are commanding real money, at least at ASK, with many sellers contending they are truly collectors pieces. I'm not sure where the market really settles out in this range but the asking prices can be +$250,000.
The next range seems to cover cars up up to @ 30,000 miles. These cars seem to be in the $225,000 at ASK range.
Beyond 30,000 miles cars still seem to be at +$200,000 ASK but the ASK prices drop pretty dramatically > 35,000 miles. Finding a well-maintained, no stories car in this range is really challenging. I think lots of cars in this range get "fluffed" for sale but don't always check out.
Obviously the overall condition, ownership history, etc. greatly effect value as does the distinction between '96 and '97 cars.
I'd love to hear thoughts on where you all think values are and how you might approach mileage. Assuming the car is right buying in the range up to say 35,000 miles doesn't spook me but it does put pressure on how much I should pay for the "right" car because I'll be driving it, not daily, but also not "annually". I have a 2010 997.2 GT3 (just got it about 1 year ago) and a Challenge Stradale (which I've really enjoyed and made a few changes to make it more track focused). I'm no. 2 on my dealer's list for a GT4, so that may ultimately be the track toy. So . . . I may actually let GT3 go to a new home.
Thanks for the insights,
Rob
#2
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These situations are always interesting to me having been there, over the last 12-18 months. I've had 7 993's total over the last 8 years. 1 NB, 2 C2S's and 4 TT's. The NA markets has always been pretty strong but the TT market was very weak for years. Of the 4 cars, 3 were under 30K miles and the final is currently at 42K. Without sounding silly I'm curious why you'd want to buy a car in this market? I currently have 2 that I paid what I'd consider reasonable money for but I don't think I could rationally get involved at this time.
Is it a fear of "missing out" or a primal need to have one? The current market may never go down to where it was a few years ago and maybe you'd miss out, I get it! The lower the mile car the better the quality, usually. I think that's where most people rationalize with paying a 25% premium. There used to be a formula we used here on the 993TT forum to determine value. It was a set "base" price plus "x" for each thousand miles the car didn't have. Although I can't find it now I'm sure the posts are still online. Does anyone have a link to it? Maybe we can edit the base and the additional $ but it's probably still pretty accurate at a multiple.
Good luck in your search and be sure to tell us when you find something!
Is it a fear of "missing out" or a primal need to have one? The current market may never go down to where it was a few years ago and maybe you'd miss out, I get it! The lower the mile car the better the quality, usually. I think that's where most people rationalize with paying a 25% premium. There used to be a formula we used here on the 993TT forum to determine value. It was a set "base" price plus "x" for each thousand miles the car didn't have. Although I can't find it now I'm sure the posts are still online. Does anyone have a link to it? Maybe we can edit the base and the additional $ but it's probably still pretty accurate at a multiple.
Good luck in your search and be sure to tell us when you find something!
#3
Drifting
I'm kind of in a similar situation as you, OP, although I'm not actively hunting at the moment because I still feel like buyers are on the wrong side of the bubble. (There's a polar silver car in the classifieds that sat for a while and finally sold around $100k in December and is now 5 months later being relisted by the buyer at $150k.)
I also intend to drive the car I find, and drive it often. As such, to me, the mileage premiums currently aren't worth it. Two years ago, when the difference was around $15k or so, then yeah, but now, I'd rather save the $50k and get a car with a few more miles and use the extra money for whatever repairs might crop up. It's not like you go from pristine show cars at 30k to bucket-o-bolts ratrods at 60-70k. (Working with "ask" pricing numbers here, for what it's worth.)
I also intend to drive the car I find, and drive it often. As such, to me, the mileage premiums currently aren't worth it. Two years ago, when the difference was around $15k or so, then yeah, but now, I'd rather save the $50k and get a car with a few more miles and use the extra money for whatever repairs might crop up. It's not like you go from pristine show cars at 30k to bucket-o-bolts ratrods at 60-70k. (Working with "ask" pricing numbers here, for what it's worth.)
#4
I'm kind of in a similar situation as you, OP, although I'm not actively hunting at the moment because I still feel like buyers are on the wrong side of the bubble. (There's a polar silver car in the classifieds that sat for a while and finally sold around $100k in December and is now 5 months later being relisted by the buyer at $150k.)
I also intend to drive the car I find, and drive it often. As such, to me, the mileage premiums currently aren't worth it. Two years ago, when the difference was around $15k or so, then yeah, but now, I'd rather save the $50k and get a car with a few more miles and use the extra money for whatever repairs might crop up. It's not like you go from pristine show cars at 30k to bucket-o-bolts ratrods at 60-70k. (Working with "ask" pricing numbers here, for what it's worth.)
I also intend to drive the car I find, and drive it often. As such, to me, the mileage premiums currently aren't worth it. Two years ago, when the difference was around $15k or so, then yeah, but now, I'd rather save the $50k and get a car with a few more miles and use the extra money for whatever repairs might crop up. It's not like you go from pristine show cars at 30k to bucket-o-bolts ratrods at 60-70k. (Working with "ask" pricing numbers here, for what it's worth.)
#5
Drifting
I agree^! With a 20 year old car I wouldn't look to much at the mileage. When you buy these cars look at current condition! You will find 60-100k mile cars that have been owned by enthusiast all their life! All it takes is that one owner during these 20 didn't care for it as much as we should! So a 25k mile car could be way worse than a 70k mile car!
Part of what frustrates me about the current market wackiness is the feeling that so many of these cars are going into 8-car air conditioned garages to sit as part of a "collection" and not get driven.
#7
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I looked and still look daily but there are a lot of over used 3.6's. They seem to look like they wear harder than most, even with low miles. Maybe it's the smile or frown they all get over time as the front bumper loses its shape.
#9
Drifting
JD has brought up some reasonable questions, I'm curious why you would want buy in this market too esp with a garage - GT3, Stradale and enroute a GT4?
Personally the NAs make much more sense to me at this point. If I were buying today, I'd personally only go for 993 C2, even forget about the crazy premium paid for WBs which are basically the same driving experience.
Unless you are a collector with the intent these cars are only going up in value, it doesn't make any real sense to pay that kinda of $ for the lower mileage cars + actually drive it. Every mile added will cost you a premium, although some could argue not really if the market continues to appreciate at the rate it has over the last few years. Just your ROI % won't be as high based on the miles added.
Now what the market will do over the next few years, I guess that is the million $ question! Some justify it's only just going into the entry level stage of collectors cars so plenty of room to still appreciate.
Skwerl also make some valuable points, is this a bubble? If the collectors are the reason for the rise in the market, at same time they will be the reason for when it falls. You would have to rationalize they are only in it for the asset $ and when it's time to put your $ elsewhere they will all follow the tide.
I suppose another factor is there are only a limited number of cars left (no more are being built) and seller/collectors don't intend on ever losing substantial $.
Bottom line it is terrible to be on the buying side in today's market, especially if your a true 993TT enthusiast. I'd have to rationalize the asking prices are probably not too far off from the selling prices and if you want one with specific mileage you'll have to pay to play. To actually drive I'd be looking at 60K+ mileage cars in nice condition, but then again that is whole other challenge too.
Personally the NAs make much more sense to me at this point. If I were buying today, I'd personally only go for 993 C2, even forget about the crazy premium paid for WBs which are basically the same driving experience.
Unless you are a collector with the intent these cars are only going up in value, it doesn't make any real sense to pay that kinda of $ for the lower mileage cars + actually drive it. Every mile added will cost you a premium, although some could argue not really if the market continues to appreciate at the rate it has over the last few years. Just your ROI % won't be as high based on the miles added.
Now what the market will do over the next few years, I guess that is the million $ question! Some justify it's only just going into the entry level stage of collectors cars so plenty of room to still appreciate.
Skwerl also make some valuable points, is this a bubble? If the collectors are the reason for the rise in the market, at same time they will be the reason for when it falls. You would have to rationalize they are only in it for the asset $ and when it's time to put your $ elsewhere they will all follow the tide.
I suppose another factor is there are only a limited number of cars left (no more are being built) and seller/collectors don't intend on ever losing substantial $.
Bottom line it is terrible to be on the buying side in today's market, especially if your a true 993TT enthusiast. I'd have to rationalize the asking prices are probably not too far off from the selling prices and if you want one with specific mileage you'll have to pay to play. To actually drive I'd be looking at 60K+ mileage cars in nice condition, but then again that is whole other challenge too.
#10
Rennlist Member
There are still lots of 993TT's to be had in comparison. I know of a 16k mile one owner who is now deceased. The car is now part of a family estate that they have no idea what it is worth. I have been trying to buy for $110k but they are hesitant even though they set the price. This market is based on many things and now we are seeing rarity and color coming into play as much as mileage and condition.
#11
My guess is as good as anyones, but I agree with some of the other posts that the 993tt market will stabilize at this level. Its most likely not a bubble. Production number is a little to high to be called a real collectible. But I think its one of the most beautiful 911s ever made. That will go a long way when it comes to value. Obviously the tts is the one to get and hold on to if you want a 993 turbo that reaches 1 million dollars. The only way I will sell mine is if I can find a nice 993RS clubsport.
#12
Rennlist Member
I'm hot in pursuit of a 993 Turbo. The market these days is just silly. I rue the day I sold my last air-cooled car ('96 C4S) and am now truly "paying" for the stupidity. Life lessons are sometimes painful - I'm not really complaining - I'm fortunate/privileged enough to actually have these kinds of "problems"!
Ok - enough philosophizing - let's talk the impact of mileage on value. Clearly the museum piece market is nuts. I don't want a museum piece. I wouldn't mind finding an uber low mile car (<10,000 miles) but wouldn't want to the premium most sellers are demanding. I'm thinking that uber low mileage premium at ASK is in the range of $30,000 - $50,000. And some folks are just simply asking silly +$300,000 money for these cars. Who knows what is actually happening with the actual sale price but it just makes no sense to pay that kind of premium, particularly if you intend to do what the folks from Stuttgart intended - drive it! Parking the car on a pedestal just seems like a waste.
The range between 10,000 - 20,000 miles is a real "tweener". These cars are commanding real money, at least at ASK, with many sellers contending they are truly collectors pieces. I'm not sure where the market really settles out in this range but the asking prices can be +$250,000.
The next range seems to cover cars up up to @ 30,000 miles. These cars seem to be in the $225,000 at ASK range.
Beyond 30,000 miles cars still seem to be at +$200,000 ASK but the ASK prices drop pretty dramatically > 35,000 miles. Finding a well-maintained, no stories car in this range is really challenging. I think lots of cars in this range get "fluffed" for sale but don't always check out.
Obviously the overall condition, ownership history, etc. greatly effect value as does the distinction between '96 and '97 cars.
I'd love to hear thoughts on where you all think values are and how you might approach mileage. Assuming the car is right buying in the range up to say 35,000 miles doesn't spook me but it does put pressure on how much I should pay for the "right" car because I'll be driving it, not daily, but also not "annually". I have a 2010 997.2 GT3 (just got it about 1 year ago) and a Challenge Stradale (which I've really enjoyed and made a few changes to make it more track focused). I'm no. 2 on my dealer's list for a GT4, so that may ultimately be the track toy. So . . . I may actually let GT3 go to a new home.
Thanks for the insights,
Rob
Ok - enough philosophizing - let's talk the impact of mileage on value. Clearly the museum piece market is nuts. I don't want a museum piece. I wouldn't mind finding an uber low mile car (<10,000 miles) but wouldn't want to the premium most sellers are demanding. I'm thinking that uber low mileage premium at ASK is in the range of $30,000 - $50,000. And some folks are just simply asking silly +$300,000 money for these cars. Who knows what is actually happening with the actual sale price but it just makes no sense to pay that kind of premium, particularly if you intend to do what the folks from Stuttgart intended - drive it! Parking the car on a pedestal just seems like a waste.
The range between 10,000 - 20,000 miles is a real "tweener". These cars are commanding real money, at least at ASK, with many sellers contending they are truly collectors pieces. I'm not sure where the market really settles out in this range but the asking prices can be +$250,000.
The next range seems to cover cars up up to @ 30,000 miles. These cars seem to be in the $225,000 at ASK range.
Beyond 30,000 miles cars still seem to be at +$200,000 ASK but the ASK prices drop pretty dramatically > 35,000 miles. Finding a well-maintained, no stories car in this range is really challenging. I think lots of cars in this range get "fluffed" for sale but don't always check out.
Obviously the overall condition, ownership history, etc. greatly effect value as does the distinction between '96 and '97 cars.
I'd love to hear thoughts on where you all think values are and how you might approach mileage. Assuming the car is right buying in the range up to say 35,000 miles doesn't spook me but it does put pressure on how much I should pay for the "right" car because I'll be driving it, not daily, but also not "annually". I have a 2010 997.2 GT3 (just got it about 1 year ago) and a Challenge Stradale (which I've really enjoyed and made a few changes to make it more track focused). I'm no. 2 on my dealer's list for a GT4, so that may ultimately be the track toy. So . . . I may actually let GT3 go to a new home.
Thanks for the insights,
Rob
Take care, Tony
#13
Rennlist Member
I've got 97k miles on mine. I drive it whenever I feel like it, rain or snow doesn't bother me. Mechanically, it's perfect and cosmetically it's probably a 8/10 condition with being that I've had the front end resprayed and new front and rear glass put in. For me 80k would probably get the job done if I was in the market to sell. The other side to this is that you hardly ever see "driver" cars come up for sale, more often they are pristine models.
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#14
Drifting
I've got 97k miles on mine. I drive it whenever I feel like it, rain or snow doesn't bother me. Mechanically, it's perfect and cosmetically it's probably a 8/10 condition with being that I've had the front end resprayed and new front and rear glass put in. For me 80k would probably get the job done if I was in the market to sell. The other side to this is that you hardly ever see "driver" cars come up for sale, more often they are pristine models.