My car is a little bit faster...
08-24-2013, 03:45 AM
#1
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My car is a little bit faster...
Thought I'd share, Long story again...
I was commenting on a particular Andial car that was for sale a while back and happened to mention that I would buy an Andial motor if another one came up for sale. (I actually had opened up and deposited monies into a USD account specifically for that reason - so I could use it if a suitable motor came up for sale ever again). A RLister pm'd me shortly afterwards and he's thinking about selling his Andial motor. Well I bought it. It has some RL history. Original owner was 911/Q45 who did the Andial conversion, I followed his posts when he did the conversion. (I don't know Don personally but we've exchanged pm's previously, and did buy his old fvd edu that he was using before he did the Andial conversion). He sold his car to SSTAR eventually and unfortunately not too long after he/the car was in an accident. (All of this is in prior threads) I bought the engine from SSTAR (really great guy and straightforward transaction, he went out of the way to make the exchange a good experience).
Anyhoo, originally, I was going to just use the engine as is and do a diy build on my engine but one thing led to another and I ended up doing a full top end rebuild. Since I wanted the engine in my car in time for this track season, I had the local shop here do the build and install (MB Euromotors - thanx Bernie!). Received the engine towards the end of May, dropped my car off last Monday 12 and got my car back today. I also requested some mods.. backdated to mechanical lifters, added a 044 Bosch fuel pump in-line with stock pump, heads/valves/guides were okay, there was some controversy between the machinist and mechanic wether the cylinders/pistons were within spec or not - ended up getting new pistons and cylinders...Kevin did his magic to the turbos, clewett serpentine kit.
Was on the dyno for the break in and checking boost/AFR's. Got some impressive numbers on the dyna pack dyno (bolts to hubs/brake type load). So for what ever it's worth the wheel/hub hp is 540 and torque 551, motronic controlled boost to 1.1bar, 92 octane gas (76 gas station - which is the closest gas station at the track I've been going to lately). Apparently saw it boost to 1.36 bar during break-in on the dyno at one point and the dyno turned itself off... pretty impressed. AFR very conservative/rich at 10.6 could probably do okay with more boost. Pretty solid tune.
The car does scoot! pretty violent past 4K. I'm at the track again this Thurs, will do some data logging. Looking forward to opening it up at the track.
Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to take many pics but here's what I've got.
Celebrated by putting some small stickers on my car, hope the purists don't mind, it still has all the components and Andial ecu (I have all the build sheets - only thing that's really changed/deviated from the formula are the mechanical lifters).
I was commenting on a particular Andial car that was for sale a while back and happened to mention that I would buy an Andial motor if another one came up for sale. (I actually had opened up and deposited monies into a USD account specifically for that reason - so I could use it if a suitable motor came up for sale ever again). A RLister pm'd me shortly afterwards and he's thinking about selling his Andial motor. Well I bought it. It has some RL history. Original owner was 911/Q45 who did the Andial conversion, I followed his posts when he did the conversion. (I don't know Don personally but we've exchanged pm's previously, and did buy his old fvd edu that he was using before he did the Andial conversion). He sold his car to SSTAR eventually and unfortunately not too long after he/the car was in an accident. (All of this is in prior threads) I bought the engine from SSTAR (really great guy and straightforward transaction, he went out of the way to make the exchange a good experience).
Anyhoo, originally, I was going to just use the engine as is and do a diy build on my engine but one thing led to another and I ended up doing a full top end rebuild. Since I wanted the engine in my car in time for this track season, I had the local shop here do the build and install (MB Euromotors - thanx Bernie!). Received the engine towards the end of May, dropped my car off last Monday 12 and got my car back today. I also requested some mods.. backdated to mechanical lifters, added a 044 Bosch fuel pump in-line with stock pump, heads/valves/guides were okay, there was some controversy between the machinist and mechanic wether the cylinders/pistons were within spec or not - ended up getting new pistons and cylinders...Kevin did his magic to the turbos, clewett serpentine kit.
Was on the dyno for the break in and checking boost/AFR's. Got some impressive numbers on the dyna pack dyno (bolts to hubs/brake type load). So for what ever it's worth the wheel/hub hp is 540 and torque 551, motronic controlled boost to 1.1bar, 92 octane gas (76 gas station - which is the closest gas station at the track I've been going to lately). Apparently saw it boost to 1.36 bar during break-in on the dyno at one point and the dyno turned itself off... pretty impressed. AFR very conservative/rich at 10.6 could probably do okay with more boost. Pretty solid tune.
The car does scoot! pretty violent past 4K. I'm at the track again this Thurs, will do some data logging. Looking forward to opening it up at the track.
Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to take many pics but here's what I've got.
Celebrated by putting some small stickers on my car, hope the purists don't mind, it still has all the components and Andial ecu (I have all the build sheets - only thing that's really changed/deviated from the formula are the mechanical lifters).
08-24-2013, 04:00 AM
#2
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oh yeah, the heads were already welded and flame ringed by 911/Q45. He had also upgraded the clutch (it's a modified Sachs motorsports unit of some sort, My mechanic said it was something that could take anything that could be thrown at it - I think Kevin supplied the kit?) and I was able to reuse it.
08-24-2013, 10:18 AM
#3
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Great stuff, thanks for sharing 
May I ask what the spec is of the turbos, we never quite got to the bottom of whether they were a K16 or a K24 base ?
Are those curves representative of what happens on the road ? it seems to take a long time to spool up, particularly considering it's 3.8l
May I ask what the spec is of the turbos, we never quite got to the bottom of whether they were a K16 or a K24 base ?
Are those curves representative of what happens on the road ? it seems to take a long time to spool up, particularly considering it's 3.8l
08-24-2013, 10:19 AM
#4
basal, sounds like you can't stop tinkering. I have the same problem. Now I'm considering a re gear. I think I'm a mod aholic. Good to see some solid dyno numbers.
I'm looking for a scrape head and cylinder for mock up and design purpose if you know of any.
Enjoy your new engine
I'm looking for a scrape head and cylinder for mock up and design purpose if you know of any.
Enjoy your new engine
08-24-2013, 11:30 AM
#6
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Thanx guys!
The turbo's are K24 based 'GT1's'. I always thought 'GT1's were K16/24 hybrids but apparently these are K24 based. Don't know much else, I 'think' the hot side is K24 and the cool side K26 internals machined into K24 housing but don't know for sure. (you know how turbo builders are vague about these details but this is what I gather from little bits of info here and there.)
From what I understand, this dyno can maintain a constant/vary the load, as opposed to the inertia type dynos, and is quite consistent. It can even be used as an engine dyno if the motor is out of the car. I'm not sure what they were simulating to get these numbers. From what I understand, aside from a 993 turbo based twin plug motec race engine for their race team (bullet racing) he's built, they haven't had a Porsche of any vintage put out this much wheel hp/tq on this dyno.
It drives near stock at rpms lower than 4K, cant really go past 4K on public roads, will have to wait til my track day next week. It did feel like an abrupt change at around 4K, will have to see how I can modulate it on the track. Looking forward to hopefully not have the vipers and vets pull away at least on the straights.
Agreed, mod aholic!
The shop has my old cylinders, I'll get them back later next week. I doubt I'd use them again so can let you know when I have them in my hands. Can't help with the heads though.
Great stuff, thanks for sharing
May I ask what the spec is of the turbos, we never quite got to the bottom of whether they were a K16 or a K24 base ?
Are those curves representative of what happens on the road ? it seems to take a long time to spool up, particularly considering it's 3.8l
May I ask what the spec is of the turbos, we never quite got to the bottom of whether they were a K16 or a K24 base ?
Are those curves representative of what happens on the road ? it seems to take a long time to spool up, particularly considering it's 3.8l
From what I understand, this dyno can maintain a constant/vary the load, as opposed to the inertia type dynos, and is quite consistent. It can even be used as an engine dyno if the motor is out of the car. I'm not sure what they were simulating to get these numbers. From what I understand, aside from a 993 turbo based twin plug motec race engine for their race team (bullet racing) he's built, they haven't had a Porsche of any vintage put out this much wheel hp/tq on this dyno.
It drives near stock at rpms lower than 4K, cant really go past 4K on public roads, will have to wait til my track day next week. It did feel like an abrupt change at around 4K, will have to see how I can modulate it on the track. Looking forward to hopefully not have the vipers and vets pull away at least on the straights.
basal, sounds like you can't stop tinkering. I have the same problem. Now I'm considering a re gear. I think I'm a mod aholic. Good to see some solid dyno numbers.
I'm looking for a scrape head and cylinder for mock up and design purpose if you know of any.
Enjoy your new engine
I'm looking for a scrape head and cylinder for mock up and design purpose if you know of any.
Enjoy your new engine
The shop has my old cylinders, I'll get them back later next week. I doubt I'd use them again so can let you know when I have them in my hands. Can't help with the heads though.
08-24-2013, 11:35 AM
#7
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Oh yeah, and with respects to 'tinkering', now I have a spare engine to play with...
I have to decide if I'm going keep it stock and perhaps find an older 911 to drop it into, or build another twin plugged motor as a 'spare'.
I have to decide if I'm going keep it stock and perhaps find an older 911 to drop it into, or build another twin plugged motor as a 'spare'.
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08-24-2013, 12:16 PM
#9
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I think you need to donate one of your Andial intercoolers to my cause. I am a non-profit but have no tax ID # for your write off, but I'd really appreciate it. :-)
08-24-2013, 01:09 PM
#11
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Thanx guys!
The turbo's are K24 based 'GT1's'. I always thought 'GT1's were K16/24 hybrids but apparently these are K24 based. Don't know much else, I 'think' the hot side is K24 and the cool side K26 internals machined into K24 housing but don't know for sure. (you know how turbo builders are vague about these details but this is what I gather from little bits of info here and there.)
From what I understand, this dyno can maintain a constant/vary the load, as opposed to the inertia type dynos, and is quite consistent. It can even be used as an engine dyno if the motor is out of the car. I'm not sure what they were simulating to get these numbers.
The turbo's are K24 based 'GT1's'. I always thought 'GT1's were K16/24 hybrids but apparently these are K24 based. Don't know much else, I 'think' the hot side is K24 and the cool side K26 internals machined into K24 housing but don't know for sure. (you know how turbo builders are vague about these details but this is what I gather from little bits of info here and there.)
From what I understand, this dyno can maintain a constant/vary the load, as opposed to the inertia type dynos, and is quite consistent. It can even be used as an engine dyno if the motor is out of the car. I'm not sure what they were simulating to get these numbers.
I am puzzled what load they used as the boost seems to come on really slowly hence low down power/torque looks wrong. I have posted below an RS Tuning 3.6 twin plug motor on 1999 style K24/26s on older style cats with RS cams (same as yours I believe - apart from the hydraulics) - you can see the boost builds much faster giving a much bigger area under the curve, maybe you could quiz the shop ?
08-24-2013, 01:30 PM
#12
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I will ask about the load. I thought the tracing looked different from others I've seen, and not sure why the torque has such a peak. Almost looks like the hp and torque curves are reversed. Not sure if some of it is it a characteristic of the dyno with the wheels/tires eliminated.
The only other difference is the stock Andial uses stock cats and extrude honed stock headers. The headers on one side was bent, so we reused mine. The cats are sport cats inserted into stock housings by Kevin and the headers were diy dremeled by me a while back.
The dyno (www.blitzkriegautowerks.com) and my mechanic felt the boost/power was being still limited by the cats/exhaust.
The only other difference is the stock Andial uses stock cats and extrude honed stock headers. The headers on one side was bent, so we reused mine. The cats are sport cats inserted into stock housings by Kevin and the headers were diy dremeled by me a while back.
The dyno (www.blitzkriegautowerks.com) and my mechanic felt the boost/power was being still limited by the cats/exhaust.
08-24-2013, 07:28 PM
#14
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The dyno ramp rate will control the way the engine accelerates up the RPM range. I have this same dyno. The operator is changing the release starting points. My question is what is the ramp rate>> how many second between the release point and RPM limit..
Toby do you have the boost curve to match your dyno plot. Many engine dyno runs are run in a ramp RPM Hold release to next RPM hold and release vs a full RPM sweep. This dyno can also be run in that simulated RPM Hold and release in a stepped rate.
Toby, these turbochargers from Don's Andial build were K24 hybrids.. As you know there are various K24/26 compressor wheel used. I would typically classify 6 different compressor wheels used. I can say that these are very similar to the ones used in your RS K24/26 hybrids. And yet different from the RUF and Sportec hybrids.. The hotside turbine and K24 turbine wheel are stock 993K24 issue.
Toby do you have the boost curve to match your dyno plot. Many engine dyno runs are run in a ramp RPM Hold release to next RPM hold and release vs a full RPM sweep. This dyno can also be run in that simulated RPM Hold and release in a stepped rate.
Toby, these turbochargers from Don's Andial build were K24 hybrids.. As you know there are various K24/26 compressor wheel used. I would typically classify 6 different compressor wheels used. I can say that these are very similar to the ones used in your RS K24/26 hybrids. And yet different from the RUF and Sportec hybrids.. The hotside turbine and K24 turbine wheel are stock 993K24 issue.
08-24-2013, 08:59 PM
#15
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I can confirm that this car is extremely fast on my test ride as passenger last night.
Other than my tires, I now have a better excuse for not being able to keep up at the track.
Other than my tires, I now have a better excuse for not being able to keep up at the track.