Bradford

It seems that both Ruf and Andial were in about the same price range for their respective upgrades. Both of those companies are very well respected and were leaders with their relatively conservative build where they feel the engine will have some longevity.

Can you get 500+ HP with just an FVD ECU upgrade? This would require K24's at minimum, no?

It seems that customers are wanting Andial to build their engines and not the other way around. With Andials reputation and the fact that they are semi-retired, they can pick and choose their projects. Jochens GT2 build was supposedly 620 HP or so with K27's, so they can build a higher HP engines. I believe he also had a Secan IC. The question is, how much did that cost?

The problem I see is that there are very few engine builder/tuners in the US for our cars. The emphasis seems to be on the water pumpers as the sky is the limit when it comes to HP.

pstoppani

My guesstimate: closer to $100K than to $50K.

porschemeister

The 620hp was built by PMNA using a 3.6l p&c's with K27, Tial waste gates, TAG ECU and program written by PMNA which we used in 97. Authenticity was key, built as ran. Including Secan and all the trick stuff...(too much to list). Properly dynoed by the man Alwin. Best one out there. 3.6 was chosen for reliability (24h).

The engine for the black GT2 is a Andial 3.8 with Carrillo rods, GT2 cams, upgraded fuel pumps and injectors and K24 turbos (no hybrids) with sport cats and exhaust. Stock headers which is the best way to go. Bosch Motronic with Andial program (done by FVD), modified IC (taller). Flame rings and welded fins on the heads.

Still have a Secan IC (last one built), 3.8 case, solid lifters,TAG etc. Have my eye on a 993 TT for a donor, looks like I will have some time this summer to get another one built, best of both: street/track. Stay tuned.

Jean

This is certainly right, a low 500s engine is a good compromise to big power and somewhat reliable engine for a street/track car.

The Andial of the old days was a hardcore racing house like Kremer, and the three owners were no doubt the best. The street engine tuning business is very different and very competitive and surely not rewarding. For the right money they will take a project, makes perfect sense.

For a 520hp engine there is no need to pay $50k. For a 570hp+ as advertised maybe yes.

Take FVD, you can buy one of their 525hp kits that includes all the needed components for those power levels (cams, K24s, ECU, FPR, mechanical rockers...), for about $12k if I am not mistaken, then spend another $4-6k to refresh your bearings, valve springs, piston rings and ARP rod bolts and you're done. I used to have a similar engine, they are very fast and run like stock.

Jochen's build was very different as he pointed out.

V

You make a very valid point. Great information thanks Jean. PM sent .

Yes I believe the RUF builds (at least the more commercial ones like the turboR) are more street oriented. A build for the race track would be done differently (more focus on high end TQ and power instead of low revs because you are almost never in low rpm on the track). Therefore the turboR has better longevity (also depends how you drive it of course). I didn't really think about this before but it makes sense. A monster build is more likely not to last as long because it puts a lot of stress on the internals...

To answer your second quesiton, there is a ton of info on this thread that we had going on a while back:

https://rennlist.com/forums/993-turb...uning-ruf.html

I think the consensus is that you can get quite far with a bit of programming and a new exhaust. But to reach 500hp, you would need some kind of k16/24 hybrid or K24s more or less..

Hi Jochen thanks for chiming in. I will follow your new build with great intrest, can't wait . Please keep us posted. Your GT2 EVO build is one of the nicest cars on the planet IMHO .

Jean, where would you put the original 3.8 993TT engines that were assembled by Andial in terms of longevity? I agree that the bolt on kit's such as the ones FVD and Cargraphic and the likes offer are pretty good value. If they are assembled correctly it's probably a good kit. But as you said beofre, I have learnt that there is a difference between "bolt on kits" like those, where the programming is not optimized for each car but rather a pre programmed ECU. Whereas with RUF for example it's an "engineered" kit where each component is engineered to work together and programming is being done on site to optimise performance for each individual car. But that comes with a price tag of course.

TB993tt

Viggo
The Andial 3.8s have to score extremely highly in terms of longevity because they have a lot of heavy duty componentry to suit a higher power app: 3.8 Mahle, flame ringed, Carrillo rods, better intercooler ?, yet the evidence (in terms of single fuel pump, cams and measured performance) shows they are pumping out low 500s hp so they are very overbuilt and should last "forever".

I would throw in the flame ringing issue here which may have been slightly overlooked. I know back in the day the Ruf 490 kit was said (by RS who used to work for Ruf FWIW) to leak from the heads as it used too much boost for the standard sealing - this is quite possibly sour grapes since I think RS perfected the sealing methodology and their way was the only way etc....

The standard head seal is definately a physical limit for how much boost and hence power an aircooled can run and in particular the mid range torque where the boost has to be kept below 1.1bar limiting to around 650NM.

Jean

Toby summed it up very well and yes the proper sealing is a no brainer.

The only caveat is that if Andial made a conscious decision to stay at the 500hp levels and overbuild their engines for longevity purposes, then they should have kept a 3.6 ltr engine and simply refresh it.

I am not promoting that a bolt-on kit is anywhere as good as a rebuilt and upgraded engine however from a value perspective yes I do think that an FVD kit (for example purposes) on a refeshed 3.6 ltr engine would be a great proposition. I suspect that their 525hp kit is rather similar to an R turbo upgrade performance-wise.

V

I don't know how RUF does with the flame ring but hopefully they addressed this issue last year when my car was there.. Perhaps I should ask them? I think my engine (if I remember correctly) ran under 1.1 bar of boost and just slightly below the 650NM mark in terms of TQ. I know the heads were replaced but I'm not sure about the head seal.

I must say I like the idea of a conservative, well balanced monster build.. Mahle 3.8 P/C's, Carillo rods, good I/C, and all of that, balanced internals and low boost. Then you would more or less never have to worry about a rebuild, as long as the car is not a track beater..

TB993tt

The longevity is mostly down to boost levels, the air cooled do not fair well with too much boost and as you (and I) found out service items for these are new heads and extra boost just means they last an even shorter time !

I reckon my 3.8 is a fine example of conservative build, it is after all what RS is know for, mine produces over 550PS by 5000rpm and peaks at 577 at 6500rpm all with just under 1 bar boost with additional heavy duty cooling items like the extra big oil coolers and the Secan intercooler and special effeciency stuff like special thin stemmed valves for better cylinder filling and twin plug heads for complete and even burn - I hope so anyway as it wasn't a nice experience having to shell out for brand new heads, as you know !