Carrera GT

I've heard of those names (is Strosek still around?) but as noted, they're not represented in the US. Strange, but there it is. Ruf has had dealers comes and go from time to time. The others are in the US only as parts vendors. All of these, in the US, leave it to the customer to be the systems integrator and each car becomes a unique example -- assuming it's ever fully debugged. It's the same, old problem -- and an expensive proposition. And all the vendors tend to move along with the new 911 type, so the 993 is now two generations behind the times and out of favor.

It seems to me the market is always asking for a vendor capable of delivering a complete, known quantity power kit to take the 993 Turbo engine up to the reliable limits of its stock internals (say 500-520 hp and lb-ft.) Going above about 520hp leaves behind any notion of bang for the buck and introduces a very real risk of just plain "bang!" Then again, if a vendor offered a robust engine rebuild and took the engine to its thermal limits (say 750hp in very round numbers) and put a price and a warranty on that kit, I think there's demand out there for that kind of car, too.) So it will be interesting to see how this "America's Top Tuner" thread unfolds. : )

bb993tt

All parts used by Andial have a Porsche part number on them. I don't see any reason for them to have bought them from *****.
Winter project's almost done.

Jean

Of US tuners using European support? I don't think there is any benefit to disclosing names of US tuners, suffice to say some of the names could be shocking. I personally see it as a good practice to share areas of expertise, no one knows everything.

Same that a few European engine builders use a lot of US developped and tested parts.

RUF does not do their own tuning, neither does Manthey, Gemballa, Techart or Cargraphic It does not change anything in the quality of the product they sell.

bb993tt

^^ As an FYI Jean, Manthey used to do this in-house, using a guy named Ansgar Wiesen. He's now out on his own in DE. He remapped my PMS 450hp ecu a few years ago. i was looking specifically to reduce the inherent K24 turbo lag and pick up a few more hp than what came with the rather conservative PMS mapping. He did an excellent job for me and the car hit virtually the same speed as Felix's at a vmax event later that year. We logged the IAT's on both cars that day using Felix's thingymajig and mine ran substantially cooler on the same fuel. From searching here, looks like he's still in business on both the air and water cooled sides.

Jean

Brian you are spot on. Ansgar is a excellent tuner, he has been a freelancer for Manthey and several others for many years..In fact I dont think he ever worked for them. He now owns the shop where he used to work, the previous owner is very reputed in Germany and was Ansgar's mentor. I had a chance to check out a durametric reading from one of his tunes on a wild engine and he does brilliant job at controlling all the parameters under an ECU controlled boost setup.

DRPM

Viggo,

I visited Andial in CA last March 2010 and has some good dialogs with Dieter et al, they were willing to do the full monty on my TT, with 3.8, GT turbo's etc etc, at the end of the day and following a detailed quotation it would have cost 50K and ~ 3months, plus shipping across the continent from Quebec.

As you know, I decided to go with Todd at Protomotive, where the first shop (a "stinker" and will remain unnamed) totally messed up the install/tuning, I ended up shipping the car to Protosport in NJ and it was then looked after properly and professionally.
Summary, John and Paul at Protosport know their air cooled 993's and I would highly recommend them in conjunction with Todd's knowldege and kits.

Derek

SSTAR

My car has two distributor caps and the mechanic charges me for 12 plugs

Pic below of the two distributors.

bb993tt

blackie came to me with the fvd unit installed. Jimmy's suggestion was to run that one until I got comfortable with the performance increase over the RUF, which was substantial according to my butt dyno. I ended up running it all last season, as I was also making additional changes to the car. The Thielert unit is in the car now and just needs me to be back in NY (and Monticello to be open) to try in out.

AutoAtlanta

If it were my money, I would trust a company like Andial to build my stuff. I am sure if you went in with a stack of cash and said "ENGINE NOW", they would do it for you.

lol.

Jean

Andial fans might not like this...

The above is somewhat a myth

The vast majority of other tuners/engine builders also stick to Porsche parts (rather OEM to be more accurate) for tunes up to 500-520 bhp, just like Andial. The trick is what happens beyond those levels.

But even at ~520bhp levels, Andial uses non OEM parts, to name a few, Carillo rods, aftermarket exhaust, even the Mahle 102mm P&C do not have a Porsche part number (different from the 993 N/A 3.8 ltr) , the sealing rings, the intercooler I think, the ignition splitter, and let alone the brain itself!

To go back on topic somewhat, I can comfortably say that there are many many engine builders out there in the US who can build just the same quality build and achieve the same performance as Andial for half the money.

Andial's reputation is excellent and I am a big admirer of their racing days, I would sleep comfortably at night knowing that they stand behind their product, but at that price, all others do as well.

The options are many for non-bespoke builds.

bb993tt

Point well taken, Jean. But I for one can live with parts made by the manufacturers you name here.

Jean

So do I!!

And most other reputable engine builders in the US use them as well...

V

Email sent. .




B, how do you preceive this difference. It would be interesting to know. I believe the RUF kit to be very driveable. I guess maybe there is where the difference is..? The 3.8 twin plug must be a total monster.

Hi Jean, thanks for the informative post. I also understand that when you get past 500hp you have to look at other rods and bits and pieces. DRPM mentioned above that he got quoted 50K USD for a Andial twin plug 3.8 engine I guess similar (?) to what BB has in Blackie. Of course it's a lot of money but I don't think it's really that expensive. Needless to say, I payed a lot for the turboR conversion..

But I get your point and I agree that Andial has a great reputation. Someone like Todd Knighton could also build a twin plug 3.8 monster engine, probably for less than 50K.. Probably better value for the money. The resale value though would probably be higher with Andial but it's tough to anticipate.

What do you mean by non-bespoke builds? Just curious..

Does anyone know how the 964 turbo (3.3 & 3.6) is as a donor engine for a high hp build compared to the 993 turbo engine? I've heard that the engine case is very strong but of course it doesn't have the twin turbo setup.

Jean

Viggo

You raised a very good point on value... There is not much value left in such an engine after a few years, as they need to be rebuilt

Here is my take on the value issue...

I got a 48k usd quote from Andial about 7 years ago for a 3.8 ltr twin plug for 570-6xx bhp. They kept a single stock fuel pump (limit ~520bhp), stock valve springs, stock hydraulic lifters, the stock injectors (limit ~520bhp), stock oil pump, aftermarket exhaust system, stock headers, K16/24 turbos (limit low 500s bhp) they upgrade the IC, and currently, they give you an FVD program ( it used to be only the Thielert back then)

The above is a low 500s bhp setup. To support this, the performance we have measured is in sync with these HP figures. So the qestion to ask is why not stick to a rebuilt 3.6 ltr single plug, and stock intercooler for such power levels, and get an off the shelf FVD ECU? Savings would be huge.

For the same $50k usd, other builders use the exact same internal components (Carillo, Mahle, etc..) + upgrade the valve springs, GT2 cams, GT3 oil pump, twin Bosch Motorsport fuel pumps, custom headers and exhaust, 60lbs injectors, larger turbochargers + custom intercooler .. Reliability is the same, and performance is much better..

I would go any day with Andial, but also with a number of other builders and get a superior engine. FInding a good builder is not difficult, there are many experts on the forum itself among the sponsors and other, however the programming and tuning part are the tricky bit and worth paying a premium for when choosing a tuner, be it in the US or Europe, it is the same story.

Jean

Tailor made customized engine build.