Jussi

If somebody feels that he can't even now believe my car's performance..
So take a look about other Turbokraft's creations:
like Marc (over 700hp/600tq at 1.25bar)
http://turbokraft.com/gallery/Marc
or
Avi (over 670hp/624tq at 1.25bar)
http://turbokraft.com/gallery/Avi
My engine has been build almost similar specs, only IC is still stock (and I'm not using Motec)..
Those links are not for advertisement purpose, they are here just to help somebodys to believe things better - at least I hope so..

to sum up:
I have been emailing with Chris a lot and we have been changing opinions and test results also..
But first, 2 years ago, when I didn't know him very well and I asked about the performance of AVI's car and got answer from Chris :
"..His car is a lot --
a lot -- faster than a 996 with the full 9FF 60,000 Euro biturbo conversion.
Avi blew him away in a 0-200kmh race by at least 8 car lengths.."
To be honest, I didn't believe that first..

TB993tt

So how many Turbokraft tts have been documented keeping their acceleration up to 300kph...... ?

Mega hp high boost 911 sprinters are nothing new. There is an even faster one here:http://www.globalnetspace.com/porsche.html

Stummel

The car seems to keep its acceleration up to 250kph which should be more than enough for most people in the world outside of Germany.

Even if it would fully heatsoak to the point of KABOOM due to the fixed boost controller it will still not happen outside of an Autobahn.

I agree that it is not a package for clueless people as a daily driver but if you monitor your IAT and so on why not.

I do not know what is the price range if no DIY is involved but it seems to be a lot of work and expensive parts involved...

I guess Kevin and Protomotive and some others can build similar power levels with that kind of money involved.

TB993tt

Stummel, I agree and have already said that it would seem a great option for the vast majority of users. Like you say he has put in some nice components so it is far from a "bolt on" sort of engine.
It would be great to see some IATs at the very high speeds on this engine - I may well be wrong and they stay within the ECus protective zone.

The thing is I can't make the logic stack up in my mind and there is so little reliable information available as people's egos seem to stop them posting anything but positive results
LAT reported that his Ruf 993 CTR when changing from 5th to 6th gear at max revs 277kph (172mph) GPS read an intake temperature on his davtron gauge of 68DegC (28DegC ambient) (the davtron gauges in my experience usually read LESS than what the ECU sensor is seeing since they are slower reacting)

LATs beast is a unique 580PS CTR with external wastegate K26s (or are they K27s ???) and will do a GPS verified 340kph (211mph) so to put it midly "it works"

Even if the unique Ruf intercooling arrangement is as good/bad as a stock 993tt then surely logic dictates that a motor running 1.3bar, stock intercooler and
6XXhp under the above conditions will be far in excess of 68DegC ?

at 70.5DegC the ECU will be retarding the ignition by 6.75 degrees - what happens at hotter intakes ? certainly not 6XXhp

So you can see Stummel if Jussi's motor is "as good" as controlling heat as the CTR then as you say it is not going to enjoy the Autobahn....

Jussi

Speaking about IAT, I have done some test which gives light for that..
Outside temp. was 12 degrees

So Toby was right: temp goes near to first point (48 degree right?) where ECU would pull timing.
But on the other hand, I could achieve better result if I change that stock IC to better one.. but I have no money for Secan.. any other choices?

But as Stummel said, that heatsoak would not happen easily and not in occasional performance test(read: like some Mitsu EVO next to you at traffic lights.. )

TB: could you send me or publish your acceleration in 4th gear from 60 to 200 kmh where are that IAT?
I would like to see how that Secan performs.

Jean:
Here is also some RPM versus Speed comparions (+theoretical speeds) and also test how close are OBD and AX speeds..



Somebody has commented that he could not see clearly those pictures what I've attached..
tip: if you can't see that picture clearly(big enough) in IE web browser, IE shrinks that and you can zoom it to normal size by going above that picture with cursor and wait that magnifying glass and click..

TB993tt

I have never formally monitored my IAT, just by watching a Davtron gauge. The test we did is in the link below where MOD had his pal read out the temp from the Hammer during the run - it is obviously far inferior to your impressive chart
The IAT starts off hot 40+DegC since the car is idling for quite a while waiting its turn. You can hear him calling off the temp readings and it stays at 40 maximum. This is within 20 DegC of ambient which is better than RS claim -they say within 25DegC of ambient (maybe a higher ambient has a different heat up rate ?)
MOD's boost will be around 0.95bar during the "business end" of the run.
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-turbo-forum/363899-rate-my-rack-hot-or-not.html

The "what intercooler" is a whole 'nother can of worms
To put some perspective the GT2 racers with their 650hp motors and $20K Secans didn't run more than 1.2bar IIRC so for the max speed runs at 1.3 bar I think any I/C would struggle....

Did you manage to log the IAT for the 260kph run which you posted before, if yes can you do another chart like above, it is very interesting

Jussi

No I didn't. I had just that AX powered on.
And I'm still waiting my time for airport to make "legal test" ..

Stummel

Seems like a dumb question but anyway I would really like to know why you chose a 993tt for that project and what do you want to do with the car?
i.e. track the car, go to the Ring, street racing, cruising, AX, hill racing, whatever...

To blow some EVOs at the traffic lights is nice but is an air cooled twin turbo a good basis for that?
Hope you are not the Ghostrider :-)

I think that power levels well above 600hp will be really useful only in 4th gear and above?

MOD500

Jussi, very impressive results

Would you be interested in attending a speed day over here in the UK in October? The venue would be Bruntingthorpe (near Leicester), same as shown on the video link TB posted.

An ideal opportunity to show what your motor can do, and I guess prove wrong any speculation to your motors true performance.

What do you reckon?

Jussi

I have liked Porsches since I was a kid. First I wanted to buy just a performance Porsche but after driving about year, I got "ill" and wanted more power
I have had that "sickness" all my car age - I have tuned all my cars(2xOpels,3xVolvos+1 Ford) and always wanted more powerful ones.. I think I have now achieved high enough stage and I can stop now and keep my Porsche and concentrate my kids and tuning their pedal cars
Yep, I drive that car in summer every day to work and back, normal driving to shop and also for fun. I go trackdays every time when PCF(Porsche Club Finland) has them, about once per month.

it is cool, I can tell you

Yes, that car really needs 4WD. I have driven it ones when it has disconnected 4WD (for dyno purpose) and that was very dangerous monster. It spinned wheels at 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears as much as I wanted..

Jussi

That would be nice but.. I have problems with those Techart doors.. I have to now send them back to Germany that they can finish the job what they should have been done already before they sold those doors
Also I'm waiting my Movit's ceramic brakes to be arrived. Stock one are cracked badly and are dangerous to use. Then I also wait those LW Volks wheels. And during winter, I try to modify my car to fit that RS tuning 911 special windshield (glass is already in my bookshelf) and maybe 997 headlights. Then RUF aero mirrors and maybe front spoiler. then the car goes painter and will get new color (black or blue) and after that I'm ready to go europe with that. Maybe I could also go to UK and see you and Toby. But that time is not now, I hope it will be next spring/summer.

pete95zhn

Think again out of the box...air to water intercoolers. Add some weight, but are much more compact in size. Place radiators with fans ito the front bumper, so you get cool charge air also when standing at trafic lights.

http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/LAMain.html

BTW, have you noticed that in addition to DIN and SAE hp there seems to be " Porsche hp " and also that infamous " American hp "....

Jean

I am not sure what this excel chart is supposed to mean or prove, nor the OBD data vs AX22 , this is very basic stuff. I have a couple of hundred excel graphs and models with all sorts of data from 200 runs+ on dataloggers that I have from many different Porsche cars, it does not make them right or wrong, and they are only useful for the user who knows what's in there and how to use the data.

Your speed vs RPM calculations are not accurate IMO using the correction factors that you are using , but let's not debate that point anymore, it is meaningless anyway.

Pete95
Porsche HP is DIN HP, they are one and the same and close to the DIN HP that you would get from putting your car on a well run MAHA chassis dyno that rips off your car for 30-40 seconds in a row during 30 minutes of dyno testing. Porsche HP will still be a bit lower than those readings most likely, that's the difference IMO. I know it because I've done it, so certainly know better than those who have not tried.

MOD500

Jussi,

Fair enough, but you could just stick your stock doors back on plus new discs and head over. If not, look forward to seeing you over here next spring.

As an aside, I hear the RUF front spoiler is not the best option.

Cheers



Martyn.

Jussi

yes, I have noticed
Here the physics laws are overruled and new power terms are discovered.. but hey, that's funny readings

Here few examples from that topic:
1) My 430 "turbokraft hp" car with 4WD and 1480kg does 60-130 in 6.5x seconds,
2) Jean's +700 "protomotive hp" car with 2WD lightweight monster does 60-130 in 6.6 seconds (I have asked that run but can't have that.. )
3) TB's 520 "RS or Porsche hp" car with 2WD and 1465kg does 60-130 in 6.9 seconds

And when going faster and using much realistic hps:
My 700hp? 4WD car does 100-250 km/h in 10.5 seconds and
TB's 620hp? 2WD car does 100-250 km/h in 12 seconds..

So, what is my point? My point is that the car still have only one hp value.(period). I only understand hp, kw and bhp values..
You can present relevant and professional comments about that but don't start blaming me again I just want open discussion about topic - that's why we are here

And when Jean argued that my calculations are wrong "by a margin" from that TB's full acceleration from 100 to 200 with one gear, 4th. (where I got that 615hp with 12% transmission lost=typical and accurate enough for 2WD 993TT porsches)
..So, instead of bawling me out, please show your calculation or even better, send them to me for verifying process.. that would be a professional way if you are a gentleman..