Anyone installed the Turbo S kit
12-26-2001, 01:21 PM
#16
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Can the drive block/immobilizer be eliminated when using this kit with the upgraded ECU mapping or must the ecu be brought to a dealer to set the drive block/immobilzer to your car for it to run?
12-26-2001, 01:57 PM
#17
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Stuart
Have to disgree with you about Porsche R&D being preffered to tuners' offerings. OK "basic tuner guess and build" yes I agree, and I know in the US you have your fair share of these, but in Germany there are many engien builders who have built race engines with Porsches approval and technical help to enable privateers to compete. These tuners can offer road car drivers options based on their extensive experience. I would venture that with the 993tt, there are tuners out there who have done a great deal more R&D than Porsche and whose product is superior because of that. I note that you are in the US and respect your choice for factory parts, but in Europe are some very respected (by the factory) race car builders who can successfully give you up to 570ps in a 993tt with factory reliability. You mention "aftermarket parts" -you will find all the parts used by the tuners are from the Porsche GT2 and GT1 program, they are bulit to withstand the rigours of racing. Where your point is somewhat valid is that Porsche will only fit up to a certain power level, one which they deem will be controllable in an otherwise stock 993tt (incidentally the UK 993 turbo S had a full suspension conversion using special shocks,springs,sway bars,bushings etc). I always feel a little sorry for people with your attitude as you are missing out on the potential of these wonderful machines, 500hp minimum is the way to go
Have to disgree with you about Porsche R&D being preffered to tuners' offerings. OK "basic tuner guess and build" yes I agree, and I know in the US you have your fair share of these, but in Germany there are many engien builders who have built race engines with Porsches approval and technical help to enable privateers to compete. These tuners can offer road car drivers options based on their extensive experience. I would venture that with the 993tt, there are tuners out there who have done a great deal more R&D than Porsche and whose product is superior because of that. I note that you are in the US and respect your choice for factory parts, but in Europe are some very respected (by the factory) race car builders who can successfully give you up to 570ps in a 993tt with factory reliability. You mention "aftermarket parts" -you will find all the parts used by the tuners are from the Porsche GT2 and GT1 program, they are bulit to withstand the rigours of racing. Where your point is somewhat valid is that Porsche will only fit up to a certain power level, one which they deem will be controllable in an otherwise stock 993tt (incidentally the UK 993 turbo S had a full suspension conversion using special shocks,springs,sway bars,bushings etc). I always feel a little sorry for people with your attitude as you are missing out on the potential of these wonderful machines, 500hp minimum is the way to go
12-26-2001, 02:02 PM
#18
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Stuart
Have to disgree with you about Porsche R&D being preffered to tuners' offerings. OK "basic tuner guess and build" yes I agree, and I know in the US you have your fair share of these, but in Germany there are many engine builders who have built race engines with Porsches approval and technical help to enable privateers to compete. These tuners can offer road car drivers options based on their extensive experience. I would venture that with the 993tt, there are tuners out there who have done a great deal more R&D than Porsche and whose product is superior because of that. I note that you are in the US and respect your choice for factory parts, but in Europe are some very respected (by the factory) race car builders who can successfully give you up to 570ps in a 993tt with factory reliability. You mention "aftermarket parts" -you will find all the parts used by the tuners are from the Porsche GT2 and GT1 program, they are built to withstand the rigours of racing. Where your point is somewhat valid is that Porsche will only fit up to a certain power level, one which they deem will be controllable in an otherwise stock 993tt (incidentally the UK 993 turbo S had a full suspension conversion using special shocks,springs,sway bars,bushings etc). I always feel a little sorry (no disrespect intended) for people with your attitude as you are missing out on the potential of these wonderful machines, IMHO 500hp minimum is the way to enjoy these cars properly
Have to disgree with you about Porsche R&D being preffered to tuners' offerings. OK "basic tuner guess and build" yes I agree, and I know in the US you have your fair share of these, but in Germany there are many engine builders who have built race engines with Porsches approval and technical help to enable privateers to compete. These tuners can offer road car drivers options based on their extensive experience. I would venture that with the 993tt, there are tuners out there who have done a great deal more R&D than Porsche and whose product is superior because of that. I note that you are in the US and respect your choice for factory parts, but in Europe are some very respected (by the factory) race car builders who can successfully give you up to 570ps in a 993tt with factory reliability. You mention "aftermarket parts" -you will find all the parts used by the tuners are from the Porsche GT2 and GT1 program, they are built to withstand the rigours of racing. Where your point is somewhat valid is that Porsche will only fit up to a certain power level, one which they deem will be controllable in an otherwise stock 993tt (incidentally the UK 993 turbo S had a full suspension conversion using special shocks,springs,sway bars,bushings etc). I always feel a little sorry (no disrespect intended) for people with your attitude as you are missing out on the potential of these wonderful machines, IMHO 500hp minimum is the way to enjoy these cars properly
12-26-2001, 04:48 PM
#20
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Originally posted by jessejames:
<STRONG>Can the drive block/immobilizer be eliminated when using this kit with the upgraded ECU mapping or must the ecu be brought to a dealer to set the drive block/immobilzer to your car for it to run?</STRONG>
<STRONG>Can the drive block/immobilizer be eliminated when using this kit with the upgraded ECU mapping or must the ecu be brought to a dealer to set the drive block/immobilzer to your car for it to run?</STRONG>
12-26-2001, 10:46 PM
#21
RL Technical Advisor
JesseJames:
2 points I'd like to make here in this discussion:
1) The immobilizer functionality can be turned on & off in the software. We do these all the time when someone sends their ECU here for reprogramming, when somebody wants an extra ECU and will not revisit the Dealer to have their codes put into the new one, or on race cars.
2) I will also mention that different tuners do not perform their Twin-Turbo modifications mods the same way,...and making any generalizations about who does what, on any Continent, is not accurate and misleading.
Using ourselves as an example, we use the very same mapping as the Factory ECU's in our Turbo "S", GT-2 Street and GT-2 race upgrades. We use the every same Turbochargers, FP regulators and some other items when do certain levels of these modifications. Plus, we can also tailor the different maps for the local fuel quality which is NOT all the same here in the USA. We can do custom programming for race gas, higher rev limits when needed, more boost, and a host of other things.
The West Coast does not get 98 RON fuel (93-94 R+M/2) and using some Euro or Factory mapping results in heavy knock sensor activity as the ECU tries to roll back the boost and timing to rid the engine of detonation. Bear in mind that when the ECU reduces boost and timing, all that great HP that you are counting on will disappear as the engine tries to save itself. In some cases,less is more,........
Very folks can do that and using a true, honest 500 HP+ TT might not work on 92 or less octane fuel. Caveat Emptor on any Euro sourced mapping unless you have the fuel octane to use it.
2 points I'd like to make here in this discussion:
1) The immobilizer functionality can be turned on & off in the software. We do these all the time when someone sends their ECU here for reprogramming, when somebody wants an extra ECU and will not revisit the Dealer to have their codes put into the new one, or on race cars.
2) I will also mention that different tuners do not perform their Twin-Turbo modifications mods the same way,...and making any generalizations about who does what, on any Continent, is not accurate and misleading.
Using ourselves as an example, we use the very same mapping as the Factory ECU's in our Turbo "S", GT-2 Street and GT-2 race upgrades. We use the every same Turbochargers, FP regulators and some other items when do certain levels of these modifications. Plus, we can also tailor the different maps for the local fuel quality which is NOT all the same here in the USA. We can do custom programming for race gas, higher rev limits when needed, more boost, and a host of other things.
The West Coast does not get 98 RON fuel (93-94 R+M/2) and using some Euro or Factory mapping results in heavy knock sensor activity as the ECU tries to roll back the boost and timing to rid the engine of detonation. Bear in mind that when the ECU reduces boost and timing, all that great HP that you are counting on will disappear as the engine tries to save itself. In some cases,less is more,........
Very folks can do that and using a true, honest 500 HP+ TT might not work on 92 or less octane fuel. Caveat Emptor on any Euro sourced mapping unless you have the fuel octane to use it.
12-27-2001, 02:01 PM
#22
The immobilizer functionality can be turned on & off in the software. We do these all the time when someone sends their ECU here for reprogramming, when somebody wants an extra ECU and will not revisit the Dealer to have their codes put into the new one, or on race cars.
12-27-2001, 02:23 PM
#23
Just to clearify my wiew on this.
Resale value - Here in Sweden we don't have that many 993TT and I would be surprised if any of them have tuned engines. Nobody has any experience here in Sweden on this (beleive me, I tried asking). That means that if a potential buyer would ask a dealer or som 'expert' about buying a tuned 993TT, they would probably tell him to stay away from my car. Unless... I say it is 'factory' equipment.
My 993TT is a 1996. This means that I would have to exchange (or buy a new) ECU. Since I want to be able to get it back to stock I have to buy a new ECU. The Factory Turbo-S kit contains all parts I need to get over 500Hp. When installed I would only need to reprogram the ECU to push it way above 450Hp. Since I already have the new ECU, the only thing needed for me is to send it to some well renownd company. This, I don't have to tell a potential buyer.
Remember, I live in Sweden, my nearest Porsche authorized service center is an Eight hour drive away
Resale value - Here in Sweden we don't have that many 993TT and I would be surprised if any of them have tuned engines. Nobody has any experience here in Sweden on this (beleive me, I tried asking). That means that if a potential buyer would ask a dealer or som 'expert' about buying a tuned 993TT, they would probably tell him to stay away from my car. Unless... I say it is 'factory' equipment.
My 993TT is a 1996. This means that I would have to exchange (or buy a new) ECU. Since I want to be able to get it back to stock I have to buy a new ECU. The Factory Turbo-S kit contains all parts I need to get over 500Hp. When installed I would only need to reprogram the ECU to push it way above 450Hp. Since I already have the new ECU, the only thing needed for me is to send it to some well renownd company. This, I don't have to tell a potential buyer.
Remember, I live in Sweden, my nearest Porsche authorized service center is an Eight hour drive away
12-27-2001, 06:07 PM
#24
RL Technical Advisor
Originally posted by 993tt:
<STRONG>
If this is the case, why are there two different Turbo-S kits from porsche - one for Immobilized cars and one for those without it??? The only thing that differs (as far as I can tell from reading the spec) is the ECU.</STRONG>
<STRONG>
If this is the case, why are there two different Turbo-S kits from porsche - one for Immobilized cars and one for those without it??? The only thing that differs (as far as I can tell from reading the spec) is the ECU.</STRONG>
01-04-2002, 05:02 PM
#25
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I have a 96 993TT with the Porsche 450hp kit. I can say that the stock set-up does have a fatter midrange. The 450hp kit feel softer in the middle but then will pull much stronger above 5krpm.
Somebody told me that this (the softer midrange) was not all due to the bigger turbo but some of it was due to the ECU programming. I am thinking to custom tune my ECU to give me a fatter midrange.
Somebody told me that this (the softer midrange) was not all due to the bigger turbo but some of it was due to the ECU programming. I am thinking to custom tune my ECU to give me a fatter midrange.
02-11-2002, 08:01 PM
#26
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This thread is sooo long... you'll probaby miss this (when I was buying the kit, I asked on this list and must have written the wrong title cuz I got no replies at all!
Anyhow, I did buy the Powerkit Plus Kit from Gert Carneval... and I'm GLAD I DID!!! It installs easily, there is no problem at all with the new ECU, and the HP was instantly recognizable. I even took it to the Porsche dealer mechanic to check it out- he agreed it was definitely more power. When you get tired of that upgrade, go see Joe Fabbiano and get those Fabspeed exhausts. Again, you'll be glad you did!
Anyhow, I did buy the Powerkit Plus Kit from Gert Carneval... and I'm GLAD I DID!!! It installs easily, there is no problem at all with the new ECU, and the HP was instantly recognizable. I even took it to the Porsche dealer mechanic to check it out- he agreed it was definitely more power. When you get tired of that upgrade, go see Joe Fabbiano and get those Fabspeed exhausts. Again, you'll be glad you did!
02-19-2002, 09:56 AM
#27
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Hey All, this has been a great thread, and I was hesitant to reply until I finished installing the GT-2 Turbo Kit from Gert. (WARNING-LONG POST) Now that I have, maybe I can offer some opinion on the kit. First off, I got the Cargraphics intercooler instead of the Turbo S one, and find it to be a FANTASTIC upgrade. The only concern is that the oil doesn't get up to temp enough! :-) As most of you guys know, GERT is a PLEASURE to deal with and is a SAINT with all the patience he has for stupid questions and requests.
Anyway, in terms of the GT-2 Kit, the install is truly bolt on, I did it myself with a friend and some of this "higher end" i.e. not Sears, but Snap On tools. This was important to make things go a little smoother. For those thinking about doing it yourself, you can but make sure you have the right tools and take your time. It will be RUSTY! Make sure you have some sort of Rust-Off (WURST), to help with some of the bolts and studs. Loosen the nut/bolt, spray lubricant, retighten slightly, and then repeat as necessary to get the sucker off!
About the Turbos, they are slightly bigger than stock and comes CLIPPED (e.g. impeller blades) to help reduce the increased lag. Other tuners recommend GT-1 turbos for the "street" as the lag in these turbos would not be acceptable on the street. (FIRST LET ME SAY BOTH TYPES OF TURBOS WOULD BE GREAT AND TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE) Well, I live and drive in New York City (stop and go, traffic) and I can tell you that the additional lag is minimal and that the upper end is just fantastic, and a monster. Let's put it this way, I can still spin all 4 tires from a 3rd gear romp so lag is not a concern for me with this kit. The midrange is definitely "laggier" when you floor it from 3K RPM, but when I drive, I usually keep the revs up higher so that when the pedal goes to the floor I do not notice any real additional lag. If you cruise between 2-3K, I can see why you may feel the extra lag before the turbos spool up. I have NO drivability issues.
I don't want to make this post too long, but as for the DME, I have one with what I must believe to have the immobilizer disabled but I have no light on my dash which stays on, I have to use the alarm/remote to turn on/off the alarm as if the car came from the factory. I NEVER had to take the car to the dealer to enter any immobilizer codes.
As for the Oil Cooler, the cargraphics one is GREAT, installs nice, but be warned with those that have K40s installed in the bumper area, that where the oil cooler lines need to go. Simple install and the car now takes dangerously long to get to operating temperature! Now I can turn on the AC in the summer to COOL DOWN the car! :-)
While I was installing the kit, I added the Turbo S motor mounts and intercooler pipes, and I think those were a welcome addition as well, but definitely not necessary. I hope this post was helpful. Thanks for listening. Anyone needing help in the NY/NJ area, I'd be more than happy to lend a hand to install this kit.
Regards,
Anyway, in terms of the GT-2 Kit, the install is truly bolt on, I did it myself with a friend and some of this "higher end" i.e. not Sears, but Snap On tools. This was important to make things go a little smoother. For those thinking about doing it yourself, you can but make sure you have the right tools and take your time. It will be RUSTY! Make sure you have some sort of Rust-Off (WURST), to help with some of the bolts and studs. Loosen the nut/bolt, spray lubricant, retighten slightly, and then repeat as necessary to get the sucker off!
About the Turbos, they are slightly bigger than stock and comes CLIPPED (e.g. impeller blades) to help reduce the increased lag. Other tuners recommend GT-1 turbos for the "street" as the lag in these turbos would not be acceptable on the street. (FIRST LET ME SAY BOTH TYPES OF TURBOS WOULD BE GREAT AND TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE) Well, I live and drive in New York City (stop and go, traffic) and I can tell you that the additional lag is minimal and that the upper end is just fantastic, and a monster. Let's put it this way, I can still spin all 4 tires from a 3rd gear romp so lag is not a concern for me with this kit. The midrange is definitely "laggier" when you floor it from 3K RPM, but when I drive, I usually keep the revs up higher so that when the pedal goes to the floor I do not notice any real additional lag. If you cruise between 2-3K, I can see why you may feel the extra lag before the turbos spool up. I have NO drivability issues.
I don't want to make this post too long, but as for the DME, I have one with what I must believe to have the immobilizer disabled but I have no light on my dash which stays on, I have to use the alarm/remote to turn on/off the alarm as if the car came from the factory. I NEVER had to take the car to the dealer to enter any immobilizer codes.
As for the Oil Cooler, the cargraphics one is GREAT, installs nice, but be warned with those that have K40s installed in the bumper area, that where the oil cooler lines need to go. Simple install and the car now takes dangerously long to get to operating temperature! Now I can turn on the AC in the summer to COOL DOWN the car! :-)
While I was installing the kit, I added the Turbo S motor mounts and intercooler pipes, and I think those were a welcome addition as well, but definitely not necessary. I hope this post was helpful. Thanks for listening. Anyone needing help in the NY/NJ area, I'd be more than happy to lend a hand to install this kit.
Regards,
02-19-2002, 12:40 PM
#28
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Vinnie
Great post My car goes off factory warrantee June 1st. It's getting the kit soon after, if I can wait that long.
I was keeping it stock as I was contemplating trading for a 'wet' TT.
Great post My car goes off factory warrantee June 1st. It's getting the kit soon after, if I can wait that long.
I was keeping it stock as I was contemplating trading for a 'wet' TT.
02-19-2002, 02:08 PM
#29
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Vinnie,
While I am not contemplating any more boost, I read about your experience with much interest.
What kind of fuel do you feed your car now. Sunoco 94? And what is the plan for the future should our state follow in the footsteps of California? 94 is what I go for presently but I have no hp upgrades (only upgrades I have are Bilstein shocks, bushings and RS bars for suspension - not the new PSS-9 though if I get a chance would love to see how the new susp. feels). I've read about octane mixing but for people like me who regularly drive cars it can be a pain unless the local station is one of the special ones that carry the full line of premium fuels - am just hoping that 94 continues to be available as it has been to date. There are a couple up your way though so you probably luckier in that respect.
Again, thanks much for your informative post.
Cheers
While I am not contemplating any more boost, I read about your experience with much interest.
What kind of fuel do you feed your car now. Sunoco 94? And what is the plan for the future should our state follow in the footsteps of California? 94 is what I go for presently but I have no hp upgrades (only upgrades I have are Bilstein shocks, bushings and RS bars for suspension - not the new PSS-9 though if I get a chance would love to see how the new susp. feels). I've read about octane mixing but for people like me who regularly drive cars it can be a pain unless the local station is one of the special ones that carry the full line of premium fuels - am just hoping that 94 continues to be available as it has been to date. There are a couple up your way though so you probably luckier in that respect.
Again, thanks much for your informative post.
Cheers
02-19-2002, 06:13 PM
#30
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Ran, I've used both 93 and 94 after the install and have used 2-3 tanks of gas in between to flush the system before each test on the PST scan tool (Bosche Hammer) and with both fuels, I have not had any knock sensor activity....(knock on wood, no pun intended :-)) This test has also been done with 3 cycles of cold starts.
If our gas goes the way of California, then I will either consider keeping a 55 gallon drum of unleaded race gas somewhere (Mother-in-Law's house :-)) and will mix if necessary. I could probably at a shop or find a gasoline station that sells it nearby and/or always keep a spare 5 gallons somewhere accessible. (If you have friends, chipping in always works better) If it doesn't work in terms of convenience then I will probably send my DME to Steve W. and ask him to remap and change timing/fuel curves to work with 91 octane gas, if that's possible. I know Octane Boost products have normally been frowned upon, but will keep a bottle as a last resort type thing if necessary. Any other suggestions are more than welcome! :-) I hope this was helpful!
Kind regards,
If our gas goes the way of California, then I will either consider keeping a 55 gallon drum of unleaded race gas somewhere (Mother-in-Law's house :-)) and will mix if necessary. I could probably at a shop or find a gasoline station that sells it nearby and/or always keep a spare 5 gallons somewhere accessible. (If you have friends, chipping in always works better) If it doesn't work in terms of convenience then I will probably send my DME to Steve W. and ask him to remap and change timing/fuel curves to work with 91 octane gas, if that's possible. I know Octane Boost products have normally been frowned upon, but will keep a bottle as a last resort type thing if necessary. Any other suggestions are more than welcome! :-) I hope this was helpful!
Kind regards,
