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Did you receive a written inspection report after paying for the PPI? Were the items that your mechanic says are bad checked off in the PPI as being good?
1. How much did you pay for the car
2. Did you reach out to the PO for his thoughts; also how long did the PO own the car for? Meaning did he buy to sell or owned/drove for a period of time
3. Did you attempt to find another shop to perform the PPI or did the seller push you into his shop
I know of many folks who within a year or less of purchasing a 993 end up rebuilding their engines. Probably more common than you think (if that makes you feel any better)
I tend to agree on the life of a clutch. Based on nothing scientific I see the top of the bell curve at around 70k miles for a new clutch.
I did not get a checklist from the inspection. That would help with some of the confusion. I simply have a piece of paper with a short sum paragraph of what was wrong.
U7; I paid 48...which I thought was fair for a lowish mileage well documented silver c2 coupe in this market? The previous owner owned for 4 years and took good care of it. He gave me complete records from both himself and the first owner. I did not attempt to find another shop (should have).
Although I feel like I didn't get a fair representation i always have a glass half full. The car already has a new suspension and valve covers and ccu. Most everything will be done and I won't have to drive a car that isn't right waiting for parts on the last leg to wear out before replacing em.
And believe me I know how you feel. I just bought a 993 from another member here who according to his listing took great care of the it... But I came to find out that it's in very poor condition and he completely thrashed it... I'm also looking at five figures to get it where it needs to be. Sucks to be taken advantage of.
+1 .. Agreed, on both points. My coupe is wearing its production clutch at 86,000+ miles.
Having looked over more than a couple of 356's, 944/968's and 993's on a Rennlist Performa basis .... and had others do the same on my behalf,,, agreed. The weight for my $.02 cents favors a fellow informed Porsche owner vs a general, shot gun PPI. .. Solid, big boy communication counts.
OP, chalk it up to experience. The 93 series is a hoot of a 911 ! All the Best -
Originally Posted by nile13
I'm not sure I understand the acceptance of spent clutch at only 57K miles. Are we now driving so poorly that the clutch wouldn't last 80-100K miles?
As for PPI, I view it on par with Rennfax maybe lower. Just another pair of eyes. Often distracted and/or with conflict of interest. In all honesty, I can name at least a dozen Rennlist members that I'd prefer to test-drive and look at the car than I would a PPI.
This is a great subject although I'm very sorry to read about your misfortunes here.
From the perspective of a shop, I'd live to add some thoughts on this with the goal of preventing this from happening to anyone else.
A reality check here is that the newest 993 you can buy is still 20 years old and even low mileage examples will have some issues to address. Higher mileage cars quite naturally, may need more attention due to deferred maintenance and repairs.
PPI's should ALWAYS be performed by a shop chosen by the potential buyer; no exceptions. Its the same principle for buying a home; YOU hire a home inspector to find any problems that the seller didn't know or failed to disclose. These people are hired to represent your best interests and this is never going to be the shop/dealer that maintains the car for current owner. Its a matter of integrity, trust, and competence.
That said, the very best PPI's are snapshots of a car's condition and there are some things which cannot be discovered without mass disassembly of powertrain components. Such procedures get expensive and are outside the scope of a PPI. A thorough PPI should include a leakdown test, a driving test, and complete examination for any body damage and/or repaint. Due to human factors as well as experience, there will always be variances between PPI's and that simply means they are imperfect, as above.
One hopes that any serious mechanical issues found outside a PPI and occuring shortly after purchase would result in some adjustments, however thats not always reality. "As-is" is the prevailing Caveat when buying a used car. CPO cars sold by a dealer may be an exception.
My best advice is to find an an independent, experienced and competent shop to perform a PPI on any car you are considering for a purchase.
In hindsight, it probably wasn't a great idea to have the same shop who serviced the car for the previous owner do the PPI, since they have a dog in the fight.
That said, unless you can absolutely prove without a doubt that they acted in bad faith, you'd have a long fight ahead to recover any costs.
Sorry to hear this, but that is why one should always get a PPI from an independent 3rd party mechanic who has no interest either way in any outcome.
Good luck with your new car; once it's fixed up, it'll fit nicely into your impressive 993 stable
Second this statement. Worse, you told your Indy to fix all issues discovered so you really bought the car in a different sense if you know what I mean. Maybe you would have had a chance to come to a "good will agreement" with the seller BEFORE fixing these issues but it's too late now for that.
I know of several well respected shops that have stopped doing PPI's for all the reasons mentioned. Think about it...for an out of town buyer who has no intention of giving the shop any business there is no upside (additional work) and a ton of downside in the form of an unhappy or unrealistic buyer which can lead to disagreements, lawsuits and bad social media. I get the "good will" aspect of performing these inspections but at what cost. It also typically doesn't make sense for the buyer to have the shop who performs the PPI do any work for several reasons; the buyer may already have a relationship with a local to them shop; or if a repair is made and a follow up is needed, how is the buyer returning to the shop if it's at a distance. The typical exception is when the buyer lives in a remote location, has no good indies, has no current relationships, or if the shop doing the PPI is held in very high esteem.
I think nothing beats the opportunity of driving a car you are considering purchasing. It saves the buyer AND seller from potential disappointing sales.
Very sorry to hear about your experiences. I think many of us, put too much faith in the fact that sellers are Rennlist members. The group certainly isn't as tight as it used to be and with the way values have climbed, I don't think everyone here is in it for the love of the car. I bought both of my 993's sight unseen and had a few small surprises with each, but nothing magor. I won't take that chance again on the next one...
Sorry to hear this tail. Long term you'll be less bothered about it and happy you have a well sorted car (and you'll actually know it's well sorted!).
If of any consolation, I bought my C2S unseen last year and relied on a PPI. My choices were a newly opened OPC (probably little to no knowledge of air cooled), the seller's mechanic (vested interest), or one other specialist who I plumped for. Seller and sellers mechanic were arguing over the findings but in all honesty, the inspection was light and the root cause of each issue grossly underestimated by bother inspection and seller (backed by his mechanic). £2-3k of estimated work has turned into over £12k and still counting. I loved the car from day one and with the work completed to date it's far better.
Good of luck with yours. It will probably be worth the spend and effort.
I'm not sure I understand the acceptance of spent clutch at only 57K miles. Are we now driving so poorly that the clutch wouldn't last 80-100K miles?
As for PPI, I view it on par with Rennfax maybe lower. Just another pair of eyes. Often distracted and/or with conflict of interest. In all honesty, I can name at least a dozen Rennlist members that I'd prefer to test-drive and look at the car than I would a PPI.
I agree! I have never had to replace a clutch in a car...several going almost 200k miles. Yes the 993 sees different usage but I think a clutch at less than 60k miles is not good.
I made the mistake of buying with a PPI done by a known Vancouver shop. It was unknown by me at the time that the seller and shop owner were close buddies. Suffice it to say that I paid too much for the car with the deficiencies that it had...that were not noted. You have to source a PPI from a qualified person without connection to the seller. In some markets, that may be difficult. Cheers
The guys down at Mayo performance (highly recommend for a PPI in the DFW area) taught me a valuable lesson. Always get the leakdown test done first, then go from there.
I think there is an element of luck in the purchase of a 993. You don't really know what you've got until you've spent some time with the car and cracked it open so to speak.
I bought from an extremely diligent owner who had kept up a great maintenance and upgrade regime. I had a good shop look the car over and discussed in detail with them. I had another person give me a rundown of the car's shape and feel before deciding to buy. I drove the car before I bought it.
When I got the car it had torn tie rod boots, obviously bad suspension bushings and all 4 CV joints torn and axles worn out as a result. Its what started me on the slippery slope of a complete suspension rebuild. The irony is that I had sought out a car which had the suspension already in good shape so I wouldn't have to worry about it. It was portrayed to me as a car that needed absolutely nothing. Maybe in a 993 that doesn't exist .
In the grand scheme of things its not a big deal, nothing like a full engine rebuild, but it still makes me scratch my head. As soon as I got it jacked up I could see exactly what the car needed. How did a shop miss that?
I don't think there is any replacement for building your own expertise, inspecting in person and attending the PPI to dig in yourself and ask the mechanic questions while the work is being done. Not something that can always be accomplished before a purchase due to time/distance constraints but that's the only way I can imagine really reducing risk and you still will never catch everything.
03-11-2017, 08:06 PM
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