Pichu

I know there's a few threads going on, but I would like to know (with actual numbers) what it would cost (or has cost you), to remove the engine, recondition/rebuild the heads (with better exhaust valve guides), and replace the engine. (New gaskets wherever they were removed).

I personally don't think this is a 'top end' rebuild, it's more like a head refresh. Top end rebuild usually includes pistons and cylinders, so none of that.

The reason I ask is because I have numbers quoted from $5K, usually, $8K all the way up to $15K on the forums which is ridiculous. Or how many hours would a shop charge to R&R an engine?

Holytin

Normally, there is lots of additional "while the engine is out" work to do so you never know the final bill until done.

I would not, and have not done just the heads. Many factors that will determine cost and I'm not familiar with CAN...

The_Dolphin

Normally here , it cost 1000$ CAN to remove and install with fresh oil and filter

Kika

40 Hours is a standard quote for basic work. Add on head machining and you have the bare bones labor cost. Add new parts cost. Parts costs can vary from replacing everything with new to using used remanufactured or even old parts. You choose.

Shop rates will vary, as will machining depending on where you go. So will workmanship and quality.

not saying they are always correlated, but you probably don't want to use a discount surgeon either.

Its your car and your money, use it to your comfort level.

there are a wide range of "while you are in there" items, and other items that could pop up once the motor is apart.

personally, my 993 is an emotional commodity to me, I plan to keep it for a very long time, or at least as long as I am physically able and thus wanted peace of mind that everything was refreshed, at least within reason. My final out the door cost was a bit towards the higher end, but I knew every step of the way what was being done and why. I am also completely happy with every decision I made.

budget for surprises, or at least be aware that surprises may occur, deal with them as they occur, or maybe you'll be fortunate and not have any surprises.

i spent just under $14k, but I did more than just the basics, quite a bit more actually.

earossi

I think that the response from Kika is pretty good and right on from my experience. You will get charged anywhere from 10 to 20 hours for R&R of the power train ($1500 to $4000). When the powertrain is reinstalled, you will need an alignment ($250-$700).

Cost to refurbish the heads includes replacement of all valve guides, new intake and exhaust valves. All the valve seats should be machined or replaced. With the heads disassembled, you should have the rocker shafts machined for parallelism to the camshafts. And, the rocker bushings should be replaced. Of course, you should install new hydraulic lifters ($2500 to $3000 parts cost).

And, with the heads removed, you may want to replace the camshaft sprockets, the timing chains, the chain guides, and/or the chain tensioners ( very little incremental labor, and relatively inexpensive parts costs).

All of the above should be the result of an evaluation of the heads and related hardware.

I can tell you that having the heads done by a reputable Porsche specialist will result in labor costs between $1000 and $2000. Add in parts (valve guides, seals, valve seats, intake/exhaust valves, etc) and the cost to "refresh" the hardware will be on the order of $3000 to $5000. A decent engine gasket set for the engine is $500+ alone.

Add it all up, and the bill is going to be tween $6K to $10K.for a head "refresh".

I could be wrong, but I think that a head refresh could account for about 50% of a total engine rebuild cost since the prep work is already done (i.e. R&R of the power plant, alignment, and disassembly of much of the engine to get to the heads).

The incremental labor to R&R the pistons and rings is not great; though the parts costs for a ringed set of P&C's will set you back $5000+ Reconditioning the connecting rods and adding new bushings and bearings is about all you need for an engine rebuild ($1000-$2000), without splitting the case. And, splitting the case is probably only warranted if you have suspicion of damage to the crank and/or the oil pump. Generally an engine case that has not been split, should be good for 250,000+ miles.

The above costs are for a "simple" refurbishment of a 3.6 engine. If you want to blueprint the engine and balance all of the rotating assembly, you can easily add $5K to the cost of the rebuild.

Costs stated above reflect market costs when I rebuilt my engine a year ago. Though I did all disassembly and reassembly work, and I did split the case, my total bill for parts and labor was slightly over $15K. So, it is easy for me to see that the cost to rebuild an engine could easily top $20K.

So, it's pretty easy to get the cost of a properly rebuilt engine to be in the $20K to $25K range. Not cheap, but the result should be a power plant ready to run another 100,000 miles without need for refurbishment.

golfnutintib

figure 15,000 to do it well and cover all bases, at least in USA major metro labor rates

Ivan J

I'm curious... Are the valves typically replaced during a top-end job, when the mileage is less than ~100k? When my 993 top-end was refreshed at ~50k miles, I was told that the original valves were all still within factory specs.

Come to think of it, my 81 SC had the top-end refreshed at 108k miles, and all of the valves were still within spec.

Jlbarnett

No, the valves should not be replaced unless they measure out of spec. My car with 120k miles the valves measured within spec. They were then regroud as well as the valve seats to match

Kika

In my case the exhaust valves were out of spec, so they were replaced. Intake valves were in spec, so they were put back in.

earossi

Good question. Unfortunately, you won't know until you have the valves on the workbench. In my case, the exhaust valves were all out of spec at 107k miles. And, though the intakes were still within spec, they would have had to be cleaned up and reground. As I recall, the difference in pricing was not great for new intakes versus machining the old intakes. My replacement valves were not OEM, (I think they were Intervalve brand ??). OEM valves would have been very expensive.

pp000830

It seems the question would be better answered by how many hours are involved and what are prevailing parts costs:

Hours to remove and install engine
Hours to disassemble ancillaries from engine and replace them.
Hours to remove head send it out for machine work and reinstall it
Cost for machine work broken down by type of work done/parts replaced.
Cost for valve train components if needed beyond basics
Cost of gaskets and assembly and required related parts
Cost of discretionary a la cart parts, plugs, wires, caps, rotors, actuators, vacuum solanoides, valve cartridges etc.

Since marked up and billed parts costs are rather constant across the industry and the biggest variable is number of hours of labor and the agreed labor rate a proforma cost could be arrived at easily with the above information.
If a few Rennlisters posted a completed invoice with this detail much of this info could be extrapolated and adjusted for regional labor rates.

Doing the above would put the car owner in a stronger position to evaluate a quote based on a regionally adjusted labor rates and the work being proposed.
Andy

Kika

Every time this question comes up, it seems like the intent is to find out the exact cost of a top end (replace the valve guides) job.

Those that have been through it realize that there are many variables, and most every motor is going to have different needs. Some may need 12 new lifters, others may require none. Some may need all be valves, others none, ditto with cams.

Cost of parts can vary also, are you using Porsche parts, or some other brand? Shops rates will vary some.

The ranges are wide, but the low end as stated in nearly every thread is about $8k. You are rare if you have gotten it done for less, fortunate, but rare. The upper end can be as high as $18-20K, but that is probably rare as well. The typical job is probably around $12K, plus or minus $3K, thus the range given of $8-15K probably encompasses more than Half of the jobs done.

If I had to do it again, I would budget for $15K as the worst case, as previously stated.

Vorsicht

You can get a very good valve job done at Ollies in AZ for $360. They have good pricing on a lot of other stuff too. I know a guy from Canada that drove his machine work over the border to a northern US State and just shipped the stuff to Ollies. I used them during my rebuild to align/rebore my case (i had to do a total rebuild, top & bottom). They do good work. Only downside is they are very busy and can take a while (sometimes months) to get the parts back to you.

Of course, this is only for machining. Getting them out of the car and shipped is extra! Also, if new parts are needed you'll have to supply them or pay ollies for them.

http://www.olliesmachine.com/uploads...Price_List.pdf

Pichu

Wow!! That is awesome and exactly what I was looking for. Seems very reasonable and well laid out.

Vorsicht

Make sure you ask for lead times b4 committing.