Stock vs Elephant Racing Bushings
08-16-2013, 09:55 AM
#61
Spend my money, Bill! Lol, just teasing. Seriously, thanks for the awesome advice. I am going to bookmark this thread for when I have time to take my car in. I might be able to do this myself, but I would rather let an expert do it. I do not have the right garage set-up anyway. I think I will do the bushes and other suspension stuff first, then re-visit the wider wheels/tires issue once I get a feel for the new set-up. I have 225-45-17 front, 255-40-17 rear ... not sure without looking it up what the offset is ... what sizes are you thinking about? I do not want to roll my fenders, btw. I am trying to keep the "stock appearance".
One other thing I have heard, while we are on the topic of set ups ... I have heard about the kinematic toe several times, but nobody around here sets it. The nearest place is four hours away in New Orleans! How important is it that I drive over there and have this done? This is NOT a full race vehicle, if that helps. I just keep hearing about it, but can't easily address it. Thanks for your awesome contributions! I have learned a ton.
One other thing I have heard, while we are on the topic of set ups ... I have heard about the kinematic toe several times, but nobody around here sets it. The nearest place is four hours away in New Orleans! How important is it that I drive over there and have this done? This is NOT a full race vehicle, if that helps. I just keep hearing about it, but can't easily address it. Thanks for your awesome contributions! I have learned a ton.
oe standard was 7ET55 & 9ET55 x16 w/ 205/55 & 245/45 x16 tires
options were 7ET55 & 9ET55 x17 w/ 205/50 & 255/40 x17 tires or 8ET52 & 10ET65 w. 225/45 & 265/35 tires
I prefer the 18s on a 993 but use the same 225/45 & 255/40 you have on 8 & 9 x17 on my C3, that works fine for street use
Yes, KT is important and needs to be done, if the dealer no longer supports that check w/ a race oriented shop,
As you add stiffer bushes to the rear the KT effect is reduced going to none w/ mono-***** but the KT still needs to be set, equally on both sides. KT is just a fancy way to say rear caster, too much and you get lots of toe change w/ suspension travel(aka rear bump steer). It can't be set to zero but most prefer the minimum that can be obtained equally on both sides.
08-16-2013, 10:46 AM
#62
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Yes, Bill really nailed thisone. Should be a sticky IMHO, not neccessarily this thread but one of these threads . Thisone is also very helpful:
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...-bushings.html
I have (as per your recommendations) bought all of the stuff you recommended (RS everything). Not cutting any corners, wanting to have the perfect handling car.
Any brand preference when it comes to the monoball toe links? You mentioned Rennline so I will go with those. Where do you get the locks and boots for the toe arm? No need to use boots for the other arms I guess.
For the rear subframe solid bushings (Rennline), can one assume that a 500hp rwd turbo can benefit from the tilt kit and a 300hp NA 993 doesn't need the tilt kit?
Next step that I havn't looked into is camber plates and top mounts. Any suggestions here? I guess it depends which suspension system you are going for? Or can for example the Rennline top mount be used no matter which suspension system? Leaning towards MCS or Öhlins with remote reservoirs 
. Either that or KWV3s..
Have a great weekend
. Thisone is also very helpful:https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...-bushings.html
Any brand preference when it comes to the monoball toe links? You mentioned Rennline so I will go with those. Where do you get the locks and boots for the toe arm? No need to use boots for the other arms I guess.
For the rear subframe solid bushings (Rennline), can one assume that a 500hp rwd turbo can benefit from the tilt kit and a 300hp NA 993 doesn't need the tilt kit?
Next step that I havn't looked into is camber plates and top mounts. Any suggestions here? I guess it depends which suspension system you are going for? Or can for example the Rennline top mount be used no matter which suspension system? Leaning towards MCS or Öhlins with remote reservoirs . Either that or KWV3s..Have a great weekend
08-16-2013, 11:51 AM
#63
Moderator and 993 whisperer
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Bill ... I am pretty sure you are my new "hero". Thanks a ton for the explanation of kt!
08-16-2013, 02:28 PM
#64
....
Any brand preference when it comes to the monoball toe links? You mentioned Rennline so I will go with those. Where do you get the locks and boots for the toe arm? No need to use boots for the other arms I guess.
For the rear subframe solid bushings (Rennline), can one assume that a 500hp rwd turbo can benefit from the tilt kit and a 300hp NA 993 doesn't need the tilt kit?
Next step that I havn't looked into is camber plates and top mounts. Any suggestions here? I guess it depends which suspension system you are going for? Or can for example the Rennline top mount be used no matter which suspension system? Leaning towards MCS or Öhlins with remote reservoirs . Either that or KWV3s..
Have a great weekend
Any brand preference when it comes to the monoball toe links? You mentioned Rennline so I will go with those. Where do you get the locks and boots for the toe arm? No need to use boots for the other arms I guess.
For the rear subframe solid bushings (Rennline), can one assume that a 500hp rwd turbo can benefit from the tilt kit and a 300hp NA 993 doesn't need the tilt kit?
Next step that I havn't looked into is camber plates and top mounts. Any suggestions here? I guess it depends which suspension system you are going for? Or can for example the Rennline top mount be used no matter which suspension system? Leaning towards MCS or Öhlins with remote reservoirs . Either that or KWV3s..Have a great weekend
That's the general consensus wrt the subframe mounts, the tilt kit changes the antisquat geometry which benefits big hp cars, the flat kits let you get the rear a little lower and makes alignment a little easier. Most of us w/ n/a cars use the flats, 9M seems to use tilt for them all.
Rennline makes nice stuff I use their shock mounts in back, but don't like the front setup, In front I like factory RS or the old Mode's, I have Modes but don't know if they are even available any longer. I have Supercup shocks on mine and it was all a straight bolt up, the guys w/ PSSxx seems to have had some difficulty using them
08-16-2013, 04:44 PM
#65
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Replaced with Elepahnt Rubber Front and Rear
I had my car into to Elephant for an alignment and corner balance. Found a number issues, some related to my recently fired mechanic, which BTW has a very reputable name I wont mention.
The real eye opener was when Chuck sent me a video showing me how much movement my rear bushings had. I have only had the car back for one day, seems much more solid and the ride is fine. Give Chuck a call I'm sure he will share the video.
I have an Auto X tomorrow we'll see how she performs.
Car is a 97' C4S with 73K miles.
The real eye opener was when Chuck sent me a video showing me how much movement my rear bushings had. I have only had the car back for one day, seems much more solid and the ride is fine. Give Chuck a call I'm sure he will share the video.
I have an Auto X tomorrow we'll see how she performs.
Car is a 97' C4S with 73K miles.
08-28-2013, 12:12 PM
#66
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it's cheaper, does that make it a better deal?
street 993 uses all soft rubber bushes, RS replaces 6 of them w/ stiffer rubber bushes and adds mono-ball shock tops, Cup replaces 2 more and replaces subframes w/ solid bushes and also mono-ball steering arms(more recent experience dictates mono-***** for rear toe arms too), RSR goes to all mono-ball on all the joints
Do you think that the factory engineers might know a thing or two?
My best advice for a street height occasional track car that has close to 100k mi. Use 4 sport rubber bushes in front and add RS or mono-ball or pinned tie rods, buy all new RS arms for the back( all the rear arms ive seen have worn leading mono-ball joint and very soft squishy trailing arm joints), the new RS arms are no more expensive and as Geo lab points out you get new ball joints too. I'd further use all new hardware. while in there rplace the non RS arms w/ new oe's
for your occasional track use forget the solid subs and mono-ball toe arms
the tie rod mods and 8.5" front wheel will wake up the lazy front end on the car and not detract from street enjoyment in any significant way.
Do work w/ a reputable shop that knows these cars on alignment and corner balance
street 993 uses all soft rubber bushes, RS replaces 6 of them w/ stiffer rubber bushes and adds mono-ball shock tops, Cup replaces 2 more and replaces subframes w/ solid bushes and also mono-ball steering arms(more recent experience dictates mono-***** for rear toe arms too), RSR goes to all mono-ball on all the joints
Do you think that the factory engineers might know a thing or two?
My best advice for a street height occasional track car that has close to 100k mi. Use 4 sport rubber bushes in front and add RS or mono-ball or pinned tie rods, buy all new RS arms for the back( all the rear arms ive seen have worn leading mono-ball joint and very soft squishy trailing arm joints), the new RS arms are no more expensive and as Geo lab points out you get new ball joints too. I'd further use all new hardware. while in there rplace the non RS arms w/ new oe's
for your occasional track use forget the solid subs and mono-ball toe arms
the tie rod mods and 8.5" front wheel will wake up the lazy front end on the car and not detract from street enjoyment in any significant way.
Do work w/ a reputable shop that knows these cars on alignment and corner balance
I got elephant racing sport hardness bushings all around front and rear , I had to replace as you said the rear A arms as the ball joints were shot , toe links as well . Billstein PSS10s
Any suggestions for the setting on coilovers from 1-10 ?
08-28-2013, 12:56 PM
#67
W/ adjustable suspensions I'd start at an extreme, either full soft or full hard and work away from it until you find a sweet spot that suits you, most likely there will be a range
09-21-2013, 08:48 AM
#68
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Update,
I dropped 17 seconds to my last time at Texas World Speedway, I was running the PSS10's at 5 in front and 5 in the back. All new elephant sport hardness bushings and new rear Wishbones + toe control arms as Bill was right, they were done...huge huge improvement in everything, feel, turn in, overall handling, and it still feels comfy on the street no noise or harshness.
Thanks for all the help
Before and after pics.
I dropped 17 seconds to my last time at Texas World Speedway, I was running the PSS10's at 5 in front and 5 in the back. All new elephant sport hardness bushings and new rear Wishbones + toe control arms as Bill was right, they were done...huge huge improvement in everything, feel, turn in, overall handling, and it still feels comfy on the street no noise or harshness.
Thanks for all the help
Before and after pics.
09-21-2013, 08:13 PM
#70
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