NineMeister

Michael,
The answer is yes - but unfortunately we currently can't support non-european 96-98 cars with the later 88 pin ecu, simply because we need an ecu socket for the harness and they are not commonly available. Geoffrey has already done a couple of 993s with Motec so may be able to shed more light on another solution.

The other point to tuning 993s is that if you can program that 88 pin Motronic the system will support up to 350hp with stock injectors. The problem is finding someone who can actually do it (as opposed to saying they can do it).

evoderby

Colin I feel your comments on the benefits of running Motec are very fair indeed and a testimony to your professional business ethics.

When running a business doing things right first time around rather than being the cheapest is invaluable to both your clients and your reputation. There are certainly other ways to tune a Porsche (as you rightfully admit), the 9M way sticks with a path that guarantee's outcome at a known price.

Too many times I've whitnessed 'solutions' that seem very competitive in price at first that in the end need substantial reengineering to perform as per required, providing nothing but hassle in between.

I myself take a hobby approach to tuning. I want to understand what's going on, and enjoy taking what's already there to levels that others say can not be done. Accordingly I'm also perepared that things might go wrong at first, or take substantial time to refine up to a level that is actually an objective improvement over the old situation. This learning curve can be frustrating at times but also very rewarding....

When outsourcing however I don't want my vendors to 'hobby'. They should have gone through their learning curve already, and as a result should be able to stand behind their offering in a no hassle manner. I think this is exactly what 9M does...

Does the engine care in the end whether it's a Motronic, Motec, DTA or whatever ECU telling the plugs to ignite at X degrees BTDC and the injectors to open X milliseconds?? No....

....the way and ease as well as future flexibility at which optimal programming can be reached does really differ between OE coded ECU´s and transparent aftermaket systems. I´ve spent ages ´reverse engineering´ a Marelli IAW ecu and tuning it with emulation software. After three different tuning stages it would have made sense in hindsight to go aftermarket from the beginning...

Lorenfb

"After three different tuning stages it would have made sense in hindsight to go aftermarket from the beginning..."

And then you learn: In reality, that little to nothing is gained from tuning without
major engine modifications! A costly learning process in both time and money.

Juha G

Colin,

There are tens (or hundreds) of 88-pin motronics up on ebay every day. Sure the Porsche ECU's cost upward of 500euro but why not get a suzuki, Honda or a BMW ECU when you only need the actual socket. It is the same socket in every 88-pin motronic unit.
It is also possible to buy just the sockets from the original supplier but you need to buy a minum of 500pcs.
A E36 BMW 88-pin motronic goes for about 50euros. That's nothing compared to what you actually get. (no need to touch the original harness and only one or two wires to pull into the engine bay).

NineMeister

On the face of it, no it doesn't. In reality, yes it does. Sensors, the ecu processor speed and the embedded algorithms within the chip software have a huge impact on how the engine performs and how fast it accelerates. This is something we are currently looking at very closely for a new project.


I've freely admitted that if I had a live, Motec style windows based interface to tune Motronic ecu's that I would probably never have considered aftermarket ecus as a viable tuning option, however it is the non-intuitive learning curve and limited functionality of the available emulator/chip flash software that got me where I am today. I totally agree that from a tuner's perspective there is no point in saving a customer £1500 on an aftermarket ecu if it takes you 100 hours to achieve lesser results by reverse engineering his current set up.

One of my friends in the trade makes a decent living from remapping all ecus and has been doing so for 20+years, however with all his vast knowledge & experience he still cannot get a stock 993 on Motronic to idle strongly with a LWF. I rest my case.

NineMeister

Juha,
That's a good point you make and if I was making one for myself I would have no hesitation in using a used part. However, for a customer I would not be comfortable charging a good price for a 9m loom adapter made with a used connector so I have been trying to source new 88 pin sockets for the last 10 months via an ecu manufacturer who orders them in bulk. They are still waiting for delivery.

evoderby

Costly indeed....the intellectual enrichment: priceless ;-)

evoderby

Btw...going from 210 hp to 352 rather helped as well....

Lorenfb

"the intellectual enrichment: priceless"

Right, and many/most things in life can be learned without experimentation
by researching the attempts and failures of others, and without ignoring basic
theories and principles.

Macca

Hi Colin.

Just wanted to say thanks before this thread turns into a thesis on the merits of factory computers and the black arts of aftermarkets ECUs!

I will indeed work through this myself until I get an outcome I'm very happy with. It sounds like it will take some time to get it right but it will be useful to understand the settings myself.

One very last question? Injector Dead time. I have the Bosch Red Devil 30/32lb units model 280155759. How can I check the dead times that I have programmed in my ECU from my tuner are correct and what would you have used across 6-15v settings? How important is this? I see deadtime values but I also have a chart for values at 39.15 psid and my tuners values are different than the chart....

Cheers

NineMeister

Hence my original comment to Bill.

Think more, do less and you will have it worked out in no time at all. Understanding is the key to the problem.

The deadtime is the difference between the actual injector open time vs the actual electrical pulse width, however this could be simplified to the fuel delivered vs fuel requested in the table. You could work it all out by using a variable voltage supply and the ecu's output in test mode, however the better plan would be to contact your ecu supplier or someone like injector dynamics to see if they could provide you with a generic 759 table (see http://www.injectordynamics.com/GMDATA.html for more details).

How important is it? I would recommend getting the table close, however the real answer is that it is not critical provided the battery voltage & fuel pressure remain constant during use because you will naturally compensate for the wrong number in the main fuel table.

Juha G

Colin,

I am still very tempted to rebuild my 3.6VR engine with your parts. The ultimate engine for me would be a high revving 4.0 liter with ITB’s and aggressive cams (+ of course your 9m heads etc.)
What is the recipe for such an engine?
My main problem is the annual inspection where they measure the emissions at idle and at 4000rpm (however not on a dyno so no load on the engine). It sets a limit for the cams.
The HC limit is 100ppm. I am not sure if that can be met with 320-dgr cams?? How much performance do I sacrifice if go with 292-dgr cams?
What should I budget for this, given I send you a 3.6VR engine and you send me back a 4.0 VR3+++ engine? (not including Motec and mapping)

I know you have spent a lot of time on giving information about different setups, but trust me when I say that one day it will pay off…=)

NineMeister

The obvious choice would be the same specification 3.82 litre that was supplied to Singer, the last one I built made over 420hp on our chassis dyno and was measured at over 360 at the wheels by Singer on US fuel. The specification of this engine included:
GT3 Crankshaft
GT3 Oil pump
9m steel rods
9m 103mm race pistons & cylinders
9m Billet heads
9m Billet rockers
9m valves & spring kit, Ti retainers
9m 320 cams, 13mm lift
9m ITB intake & breather
Headers & Motec
We would only supply this as a built & tested engine, so the obvious plan would be to install it in my 993RS for mapping & road tuning at which point you would be welcome to test it for yourself. Total cost would be in the order of £40k excluding taxes.


Engine performance is synergistic in that it relies on the entire sum of the parts working with each other, so to make a seemingly small change like camshaft duration will have a huge impact on performance. All I can really advise you is that the exact combination that I recommend above will work and make the power predicted, but make a small change that have not been tried before and the result would be unpredictable.

In respect of emissions, I could not actually say what this engine will achieve, however I have two or three similar engines in customers cars, so the next time I tune one I will look at what the engine does in terms of ppm at idle and 4000rpm.

Jean

So you can achieve 18% more torque per liter (400lbs.ft if I recall correctly) than the factory's brand new all out 2011 997RSR 4.0 Ltrs race car that uses the ultimate in 4V watercooled engine technology, intake, exhaust , extraordinary heads, the latest in componentry and ECU management and a team of hundreds of the best Motorsports engineers in the world and hundreds of millions of dollars of equipment and even more R&D.

It took Porsche 10 years to improve torque per litre by 12% over 3 generations of street cars, having to move to high compression and watercooled engines.

Colin, you are a great resource and share your passion and technology as no other sponsor here, I genuinely say that it is very commendable to see how you patiently and diligently helped Macca with his issues above but slipping numbers and dynos like these over and over again in your threads can be interpreted, at best, amateurish. So many years on.

CalvinC4S

Man your out of line. 420 on a 3.9 RSR is not unheard of at all.