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Stock Brakes VS Big Reds...
Well boys I have done the field test of the Big Reds VS stock brakes on a 993, just for you. Spent Saturday at Sears Point aka Infineon Raceway. I had recently pulled off the Big Reds (Illegal in PCA G Stock), and installed stock calipers, painted red, of course. I installed Performance Friction pads in front...and Pagid blacks on the rear...awesome. I have driven Sears Point in the past with Big Reds on the car...I noticed no degradation in braking performance with the stock brakes compared to Big Reds. I turned some decent laps, 1:57, so I was pushing the car a bit. Sears point has two (2) big braking zones. So if there was going to be decreased performance, you'd think I would have noticed it. I didn't.
...however, Big Reds do give you bragging rights, they ARE the brakes on the 993 Turbo.I am pretty content with my "Little Reds".:thumbup: |
how much lighter is your car compared to stock is the only question......
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Good Querstion
I have taken some weight out of the car. I am at 3,200 Lbs with me in the car and 1/2 a tank of gas...that is real close to PCA G Stock minimums.
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Yup, my small black brakes are just fine on the track, especially with Castrol SRF and decent pads.
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This is pretty much why I decided to use my stock binders for my brake upgrade. I went to a full floating rotor and aluminum hat and spaced them out and ventilated the hell out of them. They work awsome. I did not see a reason to upgrade to the big reds and then go with better rotors. Just saved a step.
My brakes are about as good as it can get until you spend big $$$ |
Hi Martin,
I think your on the money. heres my 2c worth: My C2 is 2950lb with half tank and all the usual accompaniments youd take a drive with (excluding me!). I havent used it on the track in the last few years since the last few rounds of mods but will do in the near future when my project nears completion mid year. The car get drive in spirited manner on New Zealand back roads (Bs and Cs) as you may recall from your trip down to our land some years ago - we have plenty of unused country roads tucked in off the main arterials with tight corners and badly cambered ashfelt! Granted I never cooked the original "small blacks" (in my case also painted red), but the addition of the techart brake ducts/fog lights, correctly plumbed through the fan brackets and exiting insude the front wheel arches with air deflectors (at some considerable expense at my panel shop) has seen a significant drop in operating temperatures. This has been further improved by removing front and rear brake backing plates (what do these things really do?). The front discs now run 15-20% cooler (using hand held lazer guided digital thermometer) on my favourite 10km windy stretch or road two way. 5% cooler at the rear. Granted its not a scientific evaluation but those ducts force air using the deflectors straight at the discs now the back plates are removed. better still there a free 3-4lb weight saving there too :-). My laymans analysis has led me to believe that a 3000lb 993 with standard brakes better ventilate is more than adequate for anything we can throw at it. 2800lb and they would be even more stressed. Ive consiered going 993TT on a number of occassions and each time been talked out of it by my race mechanic or just simply through working through the logic. If I used the 993 on the track then I think harder compound pads would be more than enough (if needed at all). As a street car Ive got the "T shirt" from an earlier race pad experience (RS2) and couldnt tolerate the compromise (squealing and long warm up times) for my ride. The fact is for 3-4000 usd fitted a new set of 993TT Big Reds makes no sense on a C2. For $800 usd you could vent the fronts, upgrade the pads and paint the calipers red and loose the backing plates while saving 3-4lb. Then think the 993TT brakes are 15-20lbs all round heavier unsprung weight! Now add the 993TT cost of maintenance and the fact you could never return to those gorgeous Cup2 wheels that one day the market will demand we all fit for future collectability and resale value of our cars LOL! Given my analaogy above you still have up to 3200usd to buy a 40/65 LSD and have it fitted, or PSS10/JIC coilovers and thicker sway bars, solid rear mounts and a good alignment. Now i would bet either of those would add loose seconds per lap than you get braking 30 yards late with 993TT Big Reds! The decision to avert from this upgrade for me was not entirely purelu fiscal (lord knows Ive invested many times more in my 993 these lst 18 months and are about to do so again embarking on DC21 cams, solid lifters, LSD and JICs). The thing was I thought the astheric would be a big winner for me. However we suck front 993TT disc on my hub wile on the lift - then stuck the wheel over it and guess what - with split rims they take up ALL the space and you cant really see the disc as such. Peopl forget almost all split rim 18s have 17" centres! As it stands my brakes look like I thought the big reds would and teh Big reds looked too big! Granted if your running MY02 18s those standard discs can look a bit punny. Not my problem tho. So the bottom line is thos discs and pads come with weight and cost penaltie plus limited wheel fitment issues all for additional braking which effectively is overkill on a vehicle which weights 12% less than the 993TT and makes 40% less power. Im aware from my ownership experience the 993RS was dressed with larger discs. And it was lighter again (2880lb wet). But the discs werent ventilated and infact they were overkill for that application too. Frankly with the heavy speedlines on the RS the best improvement you can make is putting lighter wheels on that car - one of the few imporvements you can make to it. You immediately realise the penalty of large unsprung mass. Frankly if you were dead serious about speed you would backdate the Big Reds to small reds with better ventilation, pads and no backing pates and pick up another ~20lb saving. Think lightweight wheels and smaller discs on a 993RS for 50lb less unsprung weight - you cant tell me that wouldnt be noyiceable/beneficial (although youd likely need to revalve those Bilsteins - or chuck them anyhow as there are better alternativs now for half the price). No 993RS owner would ever do this of course (and I understand that) but id bet you if they did they would conceed the benefit.... The bottom line is that road or track the standard brakes are up to the task with minor low cost modifications. they save weight and are cheaper on consumerables. they look good enough (in red :-) ) and they weigh much less. With the 4k in your pocket you could loose 200lb from the car and still have a holiday to germany. However if you are lucky enough to already have these fitted or bought your car with them then enjoy them. Afterall as the OP said bragging rights go to the Big Reds and if they werealready on my car I guess I could learn to live with them :-) M |
Originally Posted by Macca
(Post 8360355)
Hi Martin,
I think your on the money. heres my 2c worth: My C2 is 2950lb with half tank and all the usual accompaniments youd take a drive with (excluding me!). I havent used it on the track in the last few years since the last few rounds of mods but will do in the near future when my project nears completion mid year. The car get drive in spirited manner on New Zealand back roads (Bs and Cs) as you may recall from your trip down to our land some years ago - we have plenty of unused country roads tucked in off the main arterials with tight corners and badly cambered ashfelt! Granted I never cooked the original "small blacks" (in my case also painted red), but the addition of the techart brake ducts/fog lights, correctly plumbed through the fan brackets and exiting insude the front wheel arches with air deflectors (at some considerable expense at my panel shop) has seen a significant drop in operating temperatures. This has been further improved by removing front and rear brake backing plates (what do these things really do?). The front discs now run 15-20% cooler (using hand held lazer guided digital thermometer) on my favourite 10km windy stretch or road two way. 5% cooler at the rear. Granted its not a scientific evaluation but those ducts force air using the deflectors straight at the discs now the back plates are removed. better still there a free 3-4lb weight saving there too :-). My laymans analysis has led me to believe that a 3000lb 993 with standard brakes better ventilate is more than adequate for anything we can throw at it. 2800lb and they would be even more stressed. Ive consiered going 993TT on a number of occassions and each time been talked out of it by my race mechanic or just simply through working through the logic. If I used the 993 on the track then I think harder compound pads would be more than enough (if needed at all). As a street car Ive got the "T shirt" from an earlier race pad experience (RS2) and couldnt tolerate the compromise (squealing and long warm up times) for my ride. The fact is for 3-4000 usd fitted a new set of 993TT Big Reds makes no sense on a C2. For $800 usd you could vent the fronts, upgrade the pads and paint the calipers red and loose the backing plates while saving 3-4lb. Then think the 993TT brakes are 15-20lbs all round heavier unsprung weight! Now add the 993TT cost of maintenance and the fact you could never return to those gorgeous Cup2 wheels that one day the market will demand we all fit for future collectability and resale value of our cars LOL! Given my analaogy above you still have up to 3200usd to buy a 40/65 LSD and have it fitted, or PSS10/JIC coilovers and thicker sway bars, solid rear mounts and a good alignment. Now i would bet either of those would add loose seconds per lap than you get braking 30 yards late with 993TT Big Reds! The decision to avert from this upgrade for me was not entirely purelu fiscal (lord knows Ive invested many times more in my 993 these lst 18 months and are about to do so again embarking on DC21 cams, solid lifters, LSD and JICs). The thing was I thought the astheric would be a big winner for me. However we suck front 993TT disc on my hub wile on the lift - then stuck the wheel over it and guess what - with split rims they take up ALL the space and you cant really see the disc as such. Peopl forget almost all split rim 18s have 17" centres! As it stands my brakes look like I thought the big reds would and teh Big reds looked too big! Granted if your running MY02 18s those standard discs can look a bit punny. Not my problem tho. So the bottom line is thos discs and pads come with weight and cost penaltie plus limited wheel fitment issues all for additional braking which effectively is overkill on a vehicle which weights 12% less than the 993TT and makes 40% less power. Im aware from my ownership experience the 993RS was dressed with larger discs. And it was lighter again (2880lb wet). But the discs werent ventilated and infact they were overkill for that application too. Frankly with the heavy speedlines on the RS the best improvement you can make is putting lighter wheels on that car - one of the few imporvements you can make to it. You immediately realise the penalty of large unsprung mass. Frankly if you were dead serious about speed you would backdate the Big Reds to small reds with better ventilation, pads and no backing pates and pick up another ~20lb saving. Think lightweight wheels and smaller discs on a 993RS for 50lb less unsprung weight - you cant tell me that wouldnt be noyiceable/beneficial (although youd likely need to revalve those Bilsteins - or chuck them anyhow as there are better alternativs now for half the price). No 993RS owner would ever do this of course (and I understand that) but id bet you if they did they would conceed the benefit.... The bottom line is that road or track the standard brakes are up to the task with minor low cost modifications. they save weight and are cheaper on consumerables. they look good enough (in red :-) ) and they weigh much less. With the 4k in your pocket you could loose 200lb from the car and still have a holiday to germany. However if you are lucky enough to already have these fitted or bought your car with them then enjoy them. Afterall as the OP said bragging rights go to the Big Reds and if they werealready on my car I guess I could learn to live with them :-) M |
If you measure rotor temps you will find that big red run ~60% cooler than stock w/o any additional cooling, ~800F vs ~500F for the same use, that's why Mark needs SRF and I use ATE200 w/o issue
high temps is what kills brake life |
I can attest to the fact that 993 stock calipers are absolutely fine for more than 99% of users out there... I ran stock calipers in G and H class over the last two seasons (including 100+ degree summer enduros). And on top of that I ran only ATE super blue (didn't need SRF). I do have functional front ducts that do help somewhat. I can't remember every having any brake fading issues. Only downside I found with the stock setup was the frequency of rotor and pad changes.
However, I did just make the switch to TT fronts / RS rears... mostly because I'm doing a widebody conversion, and with the wider rubber and aero, there will be more demands on the braking system and I'm tired of changing my rotors so frequently. Went with Gyrodisc rotors. I'll report back after testing is complete. BTW, the original poster's assessment of cost is way off. Sunset imports has the calipers at $430 per corner. Sell your stock calipers for $600 and you're into the big red upgrade for just over $1,100. Granted, rotors and pads cost a bit more (but also last quite a bit longer). |
One factor not being mentioned is having a more advanced ABS system or an ABS delete switch. You will find the TT brakes will make a difference when your able to threshold brake at 1.4g's Vs a typical 1.1 g's.
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Originally Posted by bobt993
(Post 8362567)
One factor not being mentioned is having a more advanced ABS system or an ABS delete switch. You will find the TT brakes will make a difference when your able to threshold brake at 1.4g's Vs a typical 1.1 g's.
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I'll also echo on stock brakes being fine, from the RSA perspective. Although I was running a bit lighter with the race car at right on 3000 lbs. all-in. Used Pagid orange back then with ATE blue and some home built brake scoops. Sears on Kumho V700s or Michelin Pilot Sport Cups was about 1:52, 1:50 with Hoosiers.
But Bill is dead on when talking about brake temps and component longevity. My friends (husband/wife) who were 2-3 sec/lap slower with their RSA absolutely eliminated mid-weekend pad changes and multiple-times-per-day fluid flushes when they but the reds on. They were 200lbs. heavier, and sometimes saw 400+ miles/weekend hard use between the two of them. With the yellow car, I've yet to change rotors since I bought it from Kim four years ago (~2K miles of use), and have changed the front pads once. And even then I put some slightly used ones in that were in the box of spares that came with the car. |
Originally Posted by race911
(Post 8362880)
I'll also echo on stock brakes being fine, from the RSA perspective. Although I was running a bit lighter with the race car at right on 3000 lbs. all-in. Used Pagid orange back then with ATE blue and some home built brake scoops. Sears on Kumho V700s or Michelin Pilot Sport Cups was about 1:52, 1:50 with Hoosiers.
But Bill is dead on when talking about brake temps and component longevity. My friends (husband/wife) who were 2-3 sec/lap slower with their RSA absolutely eliminated mid-weekend pad changes and multiple-times-per-day fluid flushes when they but the reds on. They were 200lbs. heavier, and sometimes saw 400+ miles/weekend hard use between the two of them. With the yellow car, I've yet to change rotors since I bought it from Kim four years ago (~2K miles of use), and have changed the front pads once. And even then I put some slightly used ones in that were in the box of spares that came with the car. These things get hot guys, holes don't help at all in a track environment, the RS do give ~5% more torque and offload some of the heat to the back compared to normals, but heat management is the big +, for street use it doesn't make a bit of difference, my street car has 993RS brakes, 2700#, and 10yrs of use, I'll never need to replace the rotors and only infrequently will need to do pads Gasser has a fantastic cooling setup on his car and a bigger rotor w/ stock calipers. The secret is in the cooling and rotors ability to manage heat. There are several of these setups running around w/ 355 to 380mm rotors. That will be my next step if the slotted, floating 322s turn out to be not very long lived. |
Camlob. Unfortunately I have no pictures of the installation. Hard to get a picture easily of this. I have attached a picture of the kit I found on the web which goes some way to explaining the set up. Basically the pipe needs to be brought through past the front bulkhead (on one side the fan needs removing and eh sheet metal needs to be dremeled to make an apature to allow the pipe through), then exits at a40 degree angle via a supplied steel flange screwed on the guard. There is a black abs plastic defelction panel which changes the angle of airflow more agressively again and points it towards the rotir and hub assembly. With 18" rims and 225 tires full lock clears the arrangement which sits inboard more towards the hub axis. Its an elegant prefabbed solution (although a lot of time and effort to fit) but to be perfectly honest you could do the same with a cheap Turbo S duct and some flexi hose (see my picture of my previous set up before installation). Moving to a Turbo front bumper and brand new turbo liners gave me the opportunity to do a cleaner install second time around using ALL the hardware Techart supplied with the not inexpensive kit...
Bill. Good point. My experiment was with same size disc. 20% reduction which I would assume means more longegivity on the track as much as less possible fade. However if your car is a track car and used regularly then based on say a proposed 3-5 year tenure with the vehicle and a few dozen tracck days a year I think the extra outlay for the reduced maintance is worth the price of the Big Reds....my low use street machine wouldd be lucky to see a set of discs/pads a decade! Glen. Im on the other side of the world (literally!). I coulddnt get $600ud for my used "small reds" here easily as there is no market for them. I also have significant shipping costs for heavy items from the US. I think I did the math on a brand new Big Red set up (without trade value for the original parts) and I think I worked out we were talking over $3500 for four calipers (rear being RS), pads, keepers, discs x 4. Its a lot of local clams! Bobt993. You bring a really good point to bear. Brakes systems have become so much more advanced that I guess its not all about the hardware. I dot have an answer to this but maybe Bill is on te right track. Regardless changing the ABS computer and recalibrating the differentials/bias for a new larger set up (993TT or Alcon) etc would be a masive and expensive job I would have thought. We have to be realistic here guys. We are driving a 20 year old design vehicle for which OEM parts are scarcer now and cost of OEM parts is inscreasing. Weare talking of going to the track with a 30k donnor car and spending 30k to make it quicker when really we should spend 60k on a used 996 Cup car and if speed is all that mattes and lap times we will be quicker. Our cars are only moments away from being classics and we will be invited to "oldtimers" vintage races in the next decade LOL! By then we will have access to used ex factory track oriented machinery such as 997GT3RS and Cup cars that will be 30-40k usd. Heck by then everything will be electric anyway - well be talking about spending our money on lighter weight batteries! :-) M |
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