Just got deeply scr*wed....
06-12-2008, 04:10 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
Reading both statements, i would conclude that this is a dirty scratched car. Since its a DE car, it will not be a garage queen. Anyone who has run at least once on the track knows how their nose needs a respray after that... The keyword here is DEDICATED DE car. Q-tip types should not apply here.
When I got my 993 from Chuck, I was expecting some rock chips etc. from track driving as described by Chuck. I even saw and drove the car as I picked it up personally from Michigan. Still it didn't hit me before the first wash how bad the nose really was.
Yet, I cannot say that this would be Chuck's fault. He clearly informed me that the car has been extensively tracked and has rock chips. I also had a chance to see the car before I handed over the funds so I could've backed up.
It is obvious that it was my responsibility to inspect the car and as the chips were clearly visible and communicated to me, Chuck naturally expected that I accepted the condition as described.
Now this could all be different if it was hidden damage, but it was not. It was clearly visible.
Since then I've put 1000 track miles on the car and the nose is looking even worse...ahahah!
The good news is the car has been in the shop for the past two weeks getting the entire front (including hood and fenders) resprayed...
I hope you guys find a middle way somewhere there!
06-12-2008, 04:26 PM
#48
Professor of Pending Projects
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
06-12-2008, 04:31 PM
#49
My guess is that Matt is using Rennlist and his abiltiy to take this to the court of public opionion as leverage to work on his deal. Someone who is really picky (like me) should never buy anything sight unseen.
06-12-2008, 04:47 PM
#51
Seared
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
would consider to be rough. Either way, hopefully this will work out for Matt.
Andreas
06-12-2008, 04:49 PM
#52
Ok, I'll be the one to say this: Matt, you either should to tell your story, or remove this thread. It's not fair to the seller to post a poor-me story on the forum and then refuse to explain the details. These types of controversies require either total transparency -- i.e., all the information is brought into the open so everyone can judge for themselves what happened, or total opacity -- i.e., you don't say anything about it at all. Posting a dramatic "I got screwed" story and then not posting the details isn't quite right. My $0.02.
06-12-2008, 05:38 PM
#54
Burning Brakes
Ok, I'll be the one to say this: Matt, you either should to tell your story, or remove this thread. It's not fair to the seller to post a poor-me story on the forum and then refuse to explain the details. These types of controversies require either total transparency -- i.e., all the information is brought into the open so everyone can judge for themselves what happened, or total opacity -- i.e., you don't say anything about it at all. Posting a dramatic "I got screwed" story and then not posting the details isn't quite right. My $0.02.
06-12-2008, 05:59 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
Ok, I'll be the one to say this: Matt, you either should to tell your story, or remove this thread. It's not fair to the seller to post a poor-me story on the forum and then refuse to explain the details. These types of controversies require either total transparency -- i.e., all the information is brought into the open so everyone can judge for themselves what happened, or total opacity -- i.e., you don't say anything about it at all. Posting a dramatic "I got screwed" story and then not posting the details isn't quite right. My $0.02.
06-12-2008, 06:51 PM
#57
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06-12-2008, 07:04 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thx for all the comments, both supportive and constructively critical. Apologies for the delayed follow up post, but I've been working +++ since returning home. God knows I'm going to have to work quite a bit more in order to fix this car to a level reasonable to track it without a bag over my head. It is interesting to me that Larry posted here since he has not replied in substance to any of my emails.
Yes, there was clearly in retrospect a huge disconnect. However, I was lulled into a false sense of security by virtue of the fact that the PO was a Rennlister, the description of the car, the pictures, and Dan Jacob's involvement re. the motor rebuild and mechanical maintenance of the car. In short, I think a Porsche should be respected and cared for and the PO, well....
Yes, I made a big mistake not going to see the car first - or getting a trustworthy Rennlister to do so for me. I am profoundly embarassed and I feel like an idiot admitting this to everyone here. However, I've had the good fortune to buy several cars online, sight unseen, including from a Rennlister. I would never have gotten into this had I seen the car, and it's an expensive lesson. I did have a PPI done by Dan Jacobs, and I spoke to Larry (PO) several times. Anyway, mea culpa.
I took my absolutely beloved Polar Silver 993 off to get a PPI done today, and barring some surprising finding (which I can't imagine), it will be sold to a very happy guy. It's a shame to have to part with this car, but that's how it goes - and as someone posted, nobody got hurt.
I had a sh*tty sleep last night and briefly thought about just dumping the current car at a 5 figure loss, selling all of my Porsche spares and carrying on with life.... that moment seems to have passed for now.
The facts (bear with me, but I want to give you the flavour of the car):
Good:
-Great motor, RS flywheel & clutch (full rebuild 4k ago)
-Cross coilovers
-DAS rollbar
-RS splitters & tail
-No apparent tub damage
-Atiwe s/w
-Michelin Pilot Sport Cups in reasonable condition
-Gt3 seats with B/K brackets in good condition (surprisingly)
Not so good:
-Tired paint, not surprising or unexpected given the age and use of the car
-Dings and superficial scratches on basically every panel - I stopped counting
-Rear decklid mismatch (? car got bumped at some time vs. poor installation - I will have to take it apart to figure out)
-The Recaro seat rails were installed by a retarded goat. The passenger side was broken, both lower rails had rust on them - both went promptly into the garbage.
Abysmal:
-The wheels are not the ones pictured in my correspondence with the PO. Pics are posted earlier on this thread. The wheels on the car are scratched, chipped, battered track wheels with no center caps. I can't wait to spin them to see if they're round. I would say they're worth $500 at best.
-Scratches to metal on the driver's door. Paint chips to metal and rust bubbles on the cowl.
-The PO told me that the car had not been in an accident, yet this is clear evidence of respray on the driver's door.
-Twisted front hood - literally the driver's side support beam is so twisted that the hood will not seal on that side, and it was painted that way (Larry told me it had been replaced after a kid's bike fell on it). It is visible to the naked eye of an 80 year old with macular degeneration - in short, unmissable if you're within 20 feet of the car. There is superficial corrosion everywhere in the trunk, including a puddle of water next to the gas tank (significant corrosion here) indicating that this is not a new (or presumably unrecognized) problem.
-All external seals (bumper, cowl, door handles, window frames, headlight lenses, sunroof) are dry, cracked, pieces missing (cowl). All will need replacement. I think the car was stored in a convection oven.
-I asked Dan to instal some EVO uprights I had, and found at the time that I also needed to replace the battery, front rotors, front bearings, one ball joint prior to driving the car. The rear rotors are just above spec - will need to be replaced after one track day.
-Front right wheel liner is loose, rubber seal missing, flaps against the tire
-Left rocker panel loose, tons of gravel and beaded rubber jammed up underneath the last 6" of trailing edge. I'm scared to see what's underneath the wheel liners, rocker panels, and floorpan when I jack the car and I tear everything off next week.
-The interior was an absolute embarassment. It had never seen a vacuum cleaner, there was gravel and junk everywhere (Larry - I found your dentist's appointment card underneath the passenger seat, shall I mail it to you?). I tore everything out last night - the soundproofing and carpet was wet and there was mold and superficial rust on the floor pans. There was actually a puddle in the right rear seat well. UV damage to much of the interior rubber - much like the outer seals. Other than hardware, nothing is recoverable from the interior. Even the seat belt anchors are corroded...
Summary:
Basically this is a very tired, unloved base car with a good motor and some trick parts bolted to it. I've seen 150k cars that look far better inside and out, and this one has a claimed 79k on it. I'm not going to post all the emails that have transpired between myself and Larry (I didn't swear - but should have), but in short Larry's response has been to shrug his shoulders and say "it's a DE car". My position is that he really misrepresented the condition of the car. Everyone I know takes care of their track cars, and to be sold this car by a Rennlister is a wake up call. I would say conservatively that I overpaid by $8k and that's a hard lesson to swallow. As I said very pointedly to Larry via email, he should be ashamed of himself.
At least I'll be able to sleep at night.
Yes, there was clearly in retrospect a huge disconnect. However, I was lulled into a false sense of security by virtue of the fact that the PO was a Rennlister, the description of the car, the pictures, and Dan Jacob's involvement re. the motor rebuild and mechanical maintenance of the car. In short, I think a Porsche should be respected and cared for and the PO, well....
Yes, I made a big mistake not going to see the car first - or getting a trustworthy Rennlister to do so for me. I am profoundly embarassed and I feel like an idiot admitting this to everyone here. However, I've had the good fortune to buy several cars online, sight unseen, including from a Rennlister. I would never have gotten into this had I seen the car, and it's an expensive lesson. I did have a PPI done by Dan Jacobs, and I spoke to Larry (PO) several times. Anyway, mea culpa.
I took my absolutely beloved Polar Silver 993 off to get a PPI done today, and barring some surprising finding (which I can't imagine), it will be sold to a very happy guy. It's a shame to have to part with this car, but that's how it goes - and as someone posted, nobody got hurt.
I had a sh*tty sleep last night and briefly thought about just dumping the current car at a 5 figure loss, selling all of my Porsche spares and carrying on with life.... that moment seems to have passed for now.
The facts (bear with me, but I want to give you the flavour of the car):
Good:
-Great motor, RS flywheel & clutch (full rebuild 4k ago)
-Cross coilovers
-DAS rollbar
-RS splitters & tail
-No apparent tub damage
-Atiwe s/w
-Michelin Pilot Sport Cups in reasonable condition
-Gt3 seats with B/K brackets in good condition (surprisingly)
Not so good:
-Tired paint, not surprising or unexpected given the age and use of the car
-Dings and superficial scratches on basically every panel - I stopped counting
-Rear decklid mismatch (? car got bumped at some time vs. poor installation - I will have to take it apart to figure out)
-The Recaro seat rails were installed by a retarded goat. The passenger side was broken, both lower rails had rust on them - both went promptly into the garbage.
Abysmal:
-The wheels are not the ones pictured in my correspondence with the PO. Pics are posted earlier on this thread. The wheels on the car are scratched, chipped, battered track wheels with no center caps. I can't wait to spin them to see if they're round. I would say they're worth $500 at best.
-Scratches to metal on the driver's door. Paint chips to metal and rust bubbles on the cowl.
-The PO told me that the car had not been in an accident, yet this is clear evidence of respray on the driver's door.
-Twisted front hood - literally the driver's side support beam is so twisted that the hood will not seal on that side, and it was painted that way (Larry told me it had been replaced after a kid's bike fell on it). It is visible to the naked eye of an 80 year old with macular degeneration - in short, unmissable if you're within 20 feet of the car. There is superficial corrosion everywhere in the trunk, including a puddle of water next to the gas tank (significant corrosion here) indicating that this is not a new (or presumably unrecognized) problem.
-All external seals (bumper, cowl, door handles, window frames, headlight lenses, sunroof) are dry, cracked, pieces missing (cowl). All will need replacement. I think the car was stored in a convection oven.
-I asked Dan to instal some EVO uprights I had, and found at the time that I also needed to replace the battery, front rotors, front bearings, one ball joint prior to driving the car. The rear rotors are just above spec - will need to be replaced after one track day.
-Front right wheel liner is loose, rubber seal missing, flaps against the tire
-Left rocker panel loose, tons of gravel and beaded rubber jammed up underneath the last 6" of trailing edge. I'm scared to see what's underneath the wheel liners, rocker panels, and floorpan when I jack the car and I tear everything off next week.
-The interior was an absolute embarassment. It had never seen a vacuum cleaner, there was gravel and junk everywhere (Larry - I found your dentist's appointment card underneath the passenger seat, shall I mail it to you?). I tore everything out last night - the soundproofing and carpet was wet and there was mold and superficial rust on the floor pans. There was actually a puddle in the right rear seat well. UV damage to much of the interior rubber - much like the outer seals. Other than hardware, nothing is recoverable from the interior. Even the seat belt anchors are corroded...
Summary:
Basically this is a very tired, unloved base car with a good motor and some trick parts bolted to it. I've seen 150k cars that look far better inside and out, and this one has a claimed 79k on it. I'm not going to post all the emails that have transpired between myself and Larry (I didn't swear - but should have), but in short Larry's response has been to shrug his shoulders and say "it's a DE car". My position is that he really misrepresented the condition of the car. Everyone I know takes care of their track cars, and to be sold this car by a Rennlister is a wake up call. I would say conservatively that I overpaid by $8k and that's a hard lesson to swallow. As I said very pointedly to Larry via email, he should be ashamed of himself.
At least I'll be able to sleep at night.
Last edited by jdistefa; 06-12-2008 at 07:31 PM. Reason: grammar
06-12-2008, 07:05 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thank you... As some of you can no doubt empathize, I was so pissed off last night that I couldn't sit down and write something. I apologize for the cliff hanger start to the thread.
