Just got deeply scr*wed....
.
06-14-2008, 05:57 PM
#347
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06-14-2008, 05:58 PM
#348
Three Wheelin'
06-14-2008, 06:10 PM
#349
Rennlist Member
Yes, I've been on the track. Your guesses about the rain source are interesting... were you there? The car was driven home in 9 hours with the windows up.
I'm not treating the shop in a rude way at all, in fact I've been very careful to leave Dan out of this thread (to answer someone else's query, there were 8 cars being stored in his shop on racks when I was there). However, having specifically asked about accident damage to both the PO and re. the PPI (did you read anything I've posted?), I feel let down by the discovery of very obvious front tub damage, however "minor" it may be. Feel free to comment if you think this is in some way unreasonable.
Far from being ungrateful (thanks for the personal characterization), I in fact thanked Dan for being gracious in the face of my being very pissed when I got the car, and I was pleased that his tech was careful enough to both note and replace the ball joint. Having just replaced the ball joints on my existing 993 as a piece of mileage and safety-based preventative maintenance, the issue on this car again points to the overall lack of care.
Clearly, there are some that are simply not going to agree with me, and I'm ok with that. In fact, it has been helpful to read re. gaining a different perspective. However, I'm interested "new user" - exactly who are you?
I'm not treating the shop in a rude way at all, in fact I've been very careful to leave Dan out of this thread (to answer someone else's query, there were 8 cars being stored in his shop on racks when I was there). However, having specifically asked about accident damage to both the PO and re. the PPI (did you read anything I've posted?), I feel let down by the discovery of very obvious front tub damage, however "minor" it may be. Feel free to comment if you think this is in some way unreasonable.
Far from being ungrateful (thanks for the personal characterization), I in fact thanked Dan for being gracious in the face of my being very pissed when I got the car, and I was pleased that his tech was careful enough to both note and replace the ball joint. Having just replaced the ball joints on my existing 993 as a piece of mileage and safety-based preventative maintenance, the issue on this car again points to the overall lack of care.
Clearly, there are some that are simply not going to agree with me, and I'm ok with that. In fact, it has been helpful to read re. gaining a different perspective. However, I'm interested "new user" - exactly who are you?
A newbes first post, HUmmmmmm me thinks we may have struk a nerve!
06-14-2008, 06:27 PM
#350
Instructor
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I for one want to thank Matt for this discussion. I learned a lot and since I'm a first time buyer without the decades of experience many on this board have developed it was a real eye opener...and not on my dime.
Just my humble opinion.
Doug
06-14-2008, 06:37 PM
#351
Nordschleife Master
Matt, I really think that for your mental health you have two options:
BTW, the photos show only minor damage near the front protection bar area - possibly caused by hitting a low curb or parking stop.
The water damage could have easily be caused by 4 months of outdoor storage - again not the sellers fault from what has been posted on this thread.
If you are interested - another Rennlister is looking to purchase your alloy spare wheel here: https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/430673-wtb-993-964-emergency-spare-wheel.html
Hope this helps....
- Accept the life lesson here and fix the car to your liking
- or Sell the car a Track guy and move on & get over it...
BTW, the photos show only minor damage near the front protection bar area - possibly caused by hitting a low curb or parking stop.
The water damage could have easily be caused by 4 months of outdoor storage - again not the sellers fault from what has been posted on this thread.
If you are interested - another Rennlister is looking to purchase your alloy spare wheel here: https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/430673-wtb-993-964-emergency-spare-wheel.html
Hope this helps....
LJ et al,
Well, as you can see from these further pics, there's evidence of pretty long-term water damage. And to my increasing disappointment, it's pretty clear that there's tub damage - the car has certainly been dinged in the front end (picture #3).
Both Larry and Dan's shop assured me that the car had not been in an accident, so I guess the phone calls are going to start on Monday. Maybe the title I chose for the thread wasn't so wrong after all. At least I kept all the emails and paperwork....
Well, as you can see from these further pics, there's evidence of pretty long-term water damage. And to my increasing disappointment, it's pretty clear that there's tub damage - the car has certainly been dinged in the front end (picture #3).
Both Larry and Dan's shop assured me that the car had not been in an accident, so I guess the phone calls are going to start on Monday. Maybe the title I chose for the thread wasn't so wrong after all. At least I kept all the emails and paperwork....
06-14-2008, 06:48 PM
#352
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My name is Don Walker, I used to post as fusionsport here a while ago( I think I registered in like, 01 or 02?) but I cant remember my password and no longer have access to the email I used to register with, so I had to create a new user name. I am located in Denver CO and honestly know nothing about either of you guys beyond what I have read here. If you feel you need to, a simple PM will provide you with my cell number.
If you did in fact apologize to the shop then kudos to you. However, I am once again going to point out that if it wasnt sqwaked during the PPI then it was likely OK, but the tech who took the car apart didnt feel it prudent to put it back on, this is not a sign the car was neglected, merely a sign the tech is a prety smart guy.
As far as the source of water in the car, I am extremely puzzled how a car could be stored inside for 4.5 months and there still be water in the interior of the car. Something doesnt add up one way or the other- dont you agree?
If you did in fact apologize to the shop then kudos to you. However, I am once again going to point out that if it wasnt sqwaked during the PPI then it was likely OK, but the tech who took the car apart didnt feel it prudent to put it back on, this is not a sign the car was neglected, merely a sign the tech is a prety smart guy.
As far as the source of water in the car, I am extremely puzzled how a car could be stored inside for 4.5 months and there still be water in the interior of the car. Something doesnt add up one way or the other- dont you agree?
06-14-2008, 06:51 PM
#353
Burning Brakes
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+964. To quote the great John Wayne, " It's getting to be Re-God-Damn-diculous".
Seller did nothing wrong but get a nice chunk of change for his car. Those that are questioning the integrity of Dan Jacob's shop are way off base. There is more to this ****storm that we do not know about........
Seller did nothing wrong but get a nice chunk of change for his car. Those that are questioning the integrity of Dan Jacob's shop are way off base. There is more to this ****storm that we do not know about........
I have no reason to believe there was any foul play in the 5 months of storage, and we have no right to assume there was.
but:
- I actually don't think it's that off-base to question the garage and the quality of the PPI. From what we've heard and seen, important things were missed. I would hope that a PPI would comment on obvious previous accidents, water pooling in the car, rust bubbles, etc.
- If it were the seller's "fault", I still have trouble understanding how water would still be pooled in the car if it was stored in a dry garage for 5 months.
Having said that, everyone on here is correct, we don't know the details... we're all just commenting on what we've heard and forming opinions.
My opinion is that I would never get a PPI from Dan's garage based on what I've heard. That's all.
06-14-2008, 06:59 PM
#354
Rennlist Member
Coupla things:
-Porsche steel does not instantly rust in six months here on the east coast. I have a few rock chips that have been on my car for, um, four years and there is no oxidation. Yet.
-I have a street-legal track car that has its fair share of track wear, but I would be absolutely embarrassed to show up with that stinky, wet car at the track. BTW, my car has not seen any wax in four years. There's a reason PCA has a 13/13 rule, and that's so we can keep our cars looking nice. People who DE and race may not be concours people, but they appreciate and usually desire to maintain a nice car.
-I hang out with as hard-core a group of racers as they come and I don't know of one person who would use a wrench or pair of vice grips on their strut bar if they needed to make an adjustment on it.
Matt, having presented the photos, can you submit a description at the time of the sale?
-Porsche steel does not instantly rust in six months here on the east coast. I have a few rock chips that have been on my car for, um, four years and there is no oxidation. Yet.
-I have a street-legal track car that has its fair share of track wear, but I would be absolutely embarrassed to show up with that stinky, wet car at the track. BTW, my car has not seen any wax in four years. There's a reason PCA has a 13/13 rule, and that's so we can keep our cars looking nice. People who DE and race may not be concours people, but they appreciate and usually desire to maintain a nice car.
-I hang out with as hard-core a group of racers as they come and I don't know of one person who would use a wrench or pair of vice grips on their strut bar if they needed to make an adjustment on it.
Matt, having presented the photos, can you submit a description at the time of the sale?
06-14-2008, 07:09 PM
#355
Three Wheelin'
Absolutely. It crystalized the value of a "in person" inspection and reasonable communication regarding expectations, and to not blindly assume a PPI and email/phone calls as adequate as a the central mechanisms for this kind of transaction. My work schedule makes this kind of transaction difficult but as one can surmize it's essential to ensure expectations are consistently and transparently met. For some I'm sure this is obvious advise. I, however almost found myself doing the same thing as Matt just a few weeks ago since it seems most of the vehicles I become interested in are located back east and since I rationalized that my work schedule rarely brings me there...don't have time...etc...
I for one want to thank Matt for this discussion. I learned a lot and since I'm a first time buyer without the decades of experience many on this board have developed it was a real eye opener...and not on my dime.
Just my humble opinion.
Doug
I for one want to thank Matt for this discussion. I learned a lot and since I'm a first time buyer without the decades of experience many on this board have developed it was a real eye opener...and not on my dime.
Just my humble opinion.
Doug
But I'm afraid that there are those who already know this and don't need this lesson, and then there are others who cannot or will not ever absorb this wisdom - and then we'll have another "I got screwed" thread.
FWIW, I knew all this, and yet disregarded virtually every rule in this process when I bought - 2000 mi. away, no PPI, never saw it in person, bought from a dealer (another "no" in many peoples' books) - and everything turned out great. But I knew full well it could have gone the other way, and if it had, I would have never posted a thread like this - because I know who would've ultimately been to blame.
06-14-2008, 07:12 PM
#356
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Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Coupla things:
-Porsche steel does not instantly rust in six months here on the east coast. I have a few rock chips that have been on my car for, um, four years and there is no oxidation. Yet.
-I have a street-legal track car that has its fair share of track wear, but I would be absolutely embarrassed to show up with that stinky, wet car at the track. BTW, my car has not seen any wax in four years. There's a reason PCA has a 13/13 rule, and that's so we can keep our cars looking nice. People who DE and race may not be concours people, but they appreciate and usually desire to maintain a nice car.
-I hang out with as hard-core a group of racers as they come and I don't know of one person who would use a wrench or pair of vice grips on their strut bar.
-Porsche steel does not instantly rust in six months here on the east coast. I have a few rock chips that have been on my car for, um, four years and there is no oxidation. Yet.
-I have a street-legal track car that has its fair share of track wear, but I would be absolutely embarrassed to show up with that stinky, wet car at the track. BTW, my car has not seen any wax in four years. There's a reason PCA has a 13/13 rule, and that's so we can keep our cars looking nice. People who DE and race may not be concours people, but they appreciate and usually desire to maintain a nice car.
-I hang out with as hard-core a group of racers as they come and I don't know of one person who would use a wrench or pair of vice grips on their strut bar.
06-14-2008, 07:15 PM
#357
Three Wheelin'
Coupla things:
-Porsche steel does not instantly rust in six months here on the east coast. I have a few rock chips that have been on my car for, um, four years and there is no oxidation. Yet.
-I have a street-legal track car that has its fair share of track wear, but I would be absolutely embarrassed to show up with that stinky, wet car at the track. BTW, my car has not seen any wax in four years. There's a reason PCA has a 13/13 rule, and that's so we can keep our cars looking nice. People who DE and race may not be concours people, but they appreciate and usually desire to maintain a nice car.
-I hang out with as hard-core a group of racers as they come and I don't know of one person who would use a wrench or pair of vice grips on their strut bar if they needed to make an adjustment on it.
Matt, having presented the photos, can you submit a description at the time of the sale?
-Porsche steel does not instantly rust in six months here on the east coast. I have a few rock chips that have been on my car for, um, four years and there is no oxidation. Yet.
-I have a street-legal track car that has its fair share of track wear, but I would be absolutely embarrassed to show up with that stinky, wet car at the track. BTW, my car has not seen any wax in four years. There's a reason PCA has a 13/13 rule, and that's so we can keep our cars looking nice. People who DE and race may not be concours people, but they appreciate and usually desire to maintain a nice car.
-I hang out with as hard-core a group of racers as they come and I don't know of one person who would use a wrench or pair of vice grips on their strut bar if they needed to make an adjustment on it.
Matt, having presented the photos, can you submit a description at the time of the sale?
06-14-2008, 07:56 PM
#358
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
FWIW, I have purchased 2 vehicles from Dan and have had his shop perform numerous upgrades to them. I am beyond satisfied with the level of professionalism, courtesy, and honesty that Dan and his entire staff have displayed. I'm sure his hundreds of satisfied customers would wholeheartedly agree.
06-14-2008, 07:59 PM
#359
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Mark - I'm at work until 1am and I'm going to close this thread (if I can figure that out) at midnight. If you want, I'll email you the relevant correspondence.... K964 as well if you want to PM me.
06-14-2008, 08:07 PM
#360
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
If those items were NOT listed on the PPI BUT were present on the car at delivery, the liability is on the shop that stored the car or the shipping company.