Cross vs KW Variant vs PSS9 vs Moton
10-07-2007, 02:53 PM
#1
Cross vs KW Variant vs PSS9 vs Moton
Hello,
I am looking for recent feedback for those that have installed Cross coilovers on their 993s. I have researched and found a few that have, but I would like feedback on what you think of the system as a whole. Same for those that have installed KW Variants. Of course, I have read many write ups on PSS9s, but feel free to chime in, I value all opinions of recent. And lastly, I would like to hear from those who have gone the Moton Club Sport route. Now about what i am looking for. My 993 is in the process of morphing into a 5% street / 95% track car. It is the car that I will drive to work on occasion, rarely out with the wife except on PCA wine tours and mostly track. It is a car in which I eventually see I will trailer to track events with my VW Touareg. I am really getting into the track thing and have out lived the stock suspension. I roasted my last set of Michelin PS2s and Hawk HPS brake pads in less than 2700 miles, most of those track miles and on the way to and from the track. I am controlled but on the aggresive side. My instructors are impressed with my skills. So, please give me feedback on these suspension systems. Sure, money no object, I would go with the Motons based on Steve Wiener's and others inputs, but tell me why I should consider the other options.
Thanks,
Mike
I am looking for recent feedback for those that have installed Cross coilovers on their 993s. I have researched and found a few that have, but I would like feedback on what you think of the system as a whole. Same for those that have installed KW Variants. Of course, I have read many write ups on PSS9s, but feel free to chime in, I value all opinions of recent. And lastly, I would like to hear from those who have gone the Moton Club Sport route. Now about what i am looking for. My 993 is in the process of morphing into a 5% street / 95% track car. It is the car that I will drive to work on occasion, rarely out with the wife except on PCA wine tours and mostly track. It is a car in which I eventually see I will trailer to track events with my VW Touareg. I am really getting into the track thing and have out lived the stock suspension. I roasted my last set of Michelin PS2s and Hawk HPS brake pads in less than 2700 miles, most of those track miles and on the way to and from the track. I am controlled but on the aggresive side. My instructors are impressed with my skills. So, please give me feedback on these suspension systems. Sure, money no object, I would go with the Motons based on Steve Wiener's and others inputs, but tell me why I should consider the other options.
Thanks,
Mike
10-07-2007, 03:18 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Aug 2006
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I have the JIC-CROSS on right now. Install was pretty easy on the front.. rears are a pain to figure out. I've R&R's them once since.. second time was a lot easier.
What I like:
- adjustability of ride hight and spring perch heights seperatly, allows you to adjust the static position of the shocks compression seperate from overall ride height. Bit on coolness factor, not sure what any real-world benefit is.
- thoughtful design. EX. the break line tabs are already notched for easy R&R. When I pulled my fronts to swap in new adjusters I did not have to open the brake system.
- pillow-top mounts and the camber adjuster plates (camber plats on front only) are nicely made.
- a lot of different spring rates available for whatever purpose you have in mind.
Complaints:
- difficult to reach adjusters The damping adjusters are in a painful location to get too in the rear but they just released some remote adjusters. I'm still waiting for mine to arrive. If you got with JIC, order the rear remote adjusters if it does not come with it.
- mine are bouncy, but I think it's due to an install / setup error on my own part. Others do not have this and a long conversation with JIC in So. Cal indicates I likely started with my shock settings too low. I've run them up 4 clicks and it did seem to help a lot on the front. I'd not re-adjusted the rear due to access issues (again.. waiting on the remote adjusters).
Sorry if that is not super helpful. Overall.. I like them. For the street I would probalby just got with Bilstien HD's like I have on my 964 but for any sort of competitive enjoyment.. the JIC's are great. The only time I have a bouncyness complaint is on the street. In competition they are rock-solid control.
What I like:
- adjustability of ride hight and spring perch heights seperatly, allows you to adjust the static position of the shocks compression seperate from overall ride height. Bit on coolness factor, not sure what any real-world benefit is.
- thoughtful design. EX. the break line tabs are already notched for easy R&R. When I pulled my fronts to swap in new adjusters I did not have to open the brake system.
- pillow-top mounts and the camber adjuster plates (camber plats on front only) are nicely made.
- a lot of different spring rates available for whatever purpose you have in mind.
Complaints:
- difficult to reach adjusters The damping adjusters are in a painful location to get too in the rear but they just released some remote adjusters. I'm still waiting for mine to arrive. If you got with JIC, order the rear remote adjusters if it does not come with it.
- mine are bouncy, but I think it's due to an install / setup error on my own part. Others do not have this and a long conversation with JIC in So. Cal indicates I likely started with my shock settings too low. I've run them up 4 clicks and it did seem to help a lot on the front. I'd not re-adjusted the rear due to access issues (again.. waiting on the remote adjusters).
Sorry if that is not super helpful. Overall.. I like them. For the street I would probalby just got with Bilstien HD's like I have on my 964 but for any sort of competitive enjoyment.. the JIC's are great. The only time I have a bouncyness complaint is on the street. In competition they are rock-solid control.
10-07-2007, 03:19 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
I'm no expert but from what I've seen (and what you've described you want to do with your car), I suspect you would grow out of pss9's pretty quickly. My friends who run pss9's just have their settings max'ed out on all 4's (full stiff), are happy with it but have limited further adjustments. The spring rates for pss9's (don't remember what they are but I think they come in a couple of variations) are not that high either. I have motons and have been really impressed with being able to adjust them to correct understeer/oversteer etc on the track depending on tires/pressures etc. I run moderate spring rates (still about double what can be gotten with pss9's) and have the compression settings on the second or third softest setting at the tract (ie. there's lots of adjustment available still). You need a good installer because deciding on what spring rates is important depending on your driving (there's a huge number of variables with differnt tender and main springs - you'd have the option of changing them in the future as well). I have no direct experience with the other set ups.
Ryojo
Ryojo
10-07-2007, 04:45 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
I have JIC and so far so great. Bang for the buck is definitely there over PSS9 especially with monoballs. I agree that you'll likely grow out of PSS9 after a season. Motons look very nice - two and three way adjustability (more things for me to mess up) and remote reservoirs - but a big cost jump. I've heard that JRZ need more frequent rebuilds, so that took them off my list.
If money's not an issue, just get Motons and be done with it. If you are looking for a great value and solid performance, I like JIC's and voted with my wallet.
If money's not an issue, just get Motons and be done with it. If you are looking for a great value and solid performance, I like JIC's and voted with my wallet.
10-07-2007, 08:24 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
Another vote for JIC. I have 98% track, only street is to get gas down the street from the track. I have been really happy with the entire setup. Have the middle range springs, and run 4-5 clicks from full hard. I wouldn't run on the street that firm, but for track it is excellent. If I were to do it over, I think (for this high % of track use) I would get the highest rate springs. JIC will custom valve the shocks for you if you think you need it. Wide range of adjustability, (I don't have any problem getting to the rear adjusters if you just wiggle your arm in) built in camber plates, pillow bearings on the top mounts, and the independent adjustability of ride height and spring perch, make it a great set, and tremendous bang for the buck. Oh yeah, I have TRG bars front and rear.
10-07-2007, 11:08 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
Moton Club Sports came with my '95 via the former owner who paid the bills, and as built by Steve Weiner. All things considered, when you look at how much you'll spend to get the car set up correctly, it's hardly any more at all. I cannot believe how well the package works. In fact, a local race shop owner/fabricator (ex-ALMS and did Barber w/ Scott Speed) seems to rather enjoy taking mine out when we're at the track together.
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10-07-2007, 11:11 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
If you're super-serious about the track, and it sounds like you are, get the Motons and be done with it. A few guys are running the JIC's in club racing and doing okay with them. I had the PSS-9's and agree with all of the above that they are easy to grow out of. The valving and spring rates are all wrong, especially with 18" MPSC's and bumpy tracks. Sometimes I felt like I was riding Flipper. . .
The Moton Clubsports are formidable weapons, but be prepared for a very steep learning and set-up curve. If you're not driving hard enough they will not magically subtract one or two seconds. What they will do, once you get them dialed-in, is to give you more confidence in the car and what it is capable of. They really help the car feel more stable and, if tuned correctly, more forgiving. The better you feel about the car, the harder you'll push it.
Steve Weiner is the go-to guy for Motons. He spends so much time with you which is exactly what you need to work the Rubik's cube of double/triple adjustable remote reservoirs. Otherwise, unless you are unbelievably methodical and gifted with suspension tuning, you'll be lost in the woods.
The Moton Clubsports are formidable weapons, but be prepared for a very steep learning and set-up curve. If you're not driving hard enough they will not magically subtract one or two seconds. What they will do, once you get them dialed-in, is to give you more confidence in the car and what it is capable of. They really help the car feel more stable and, if tuned correctly, more forgiving. The better you feel about the car, the harder you'll push it.
Steve Weiner is the go-to guy for Motons. He spends so much time with you which is exactly what you need to work the Rubik's cube of double/triple adjustable remote reservoirs. Otherwise, unless you are unbelievably methodical and gifted with suspension tuning, you'll be lost in the woods.
10-08-2007, 03:16 AM
#9
Why do I feel so left out!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
All advice above is worthy - IMHO.
I run the JIC setup on my turbo and lets say use the car to its (and Mine) ability....
Am very happy with the product - would like easier adjustability (try getting into your rears with an intercooler..... but as a whole - highly recommended. I am one of few down here competitively running them and against PSS9 - its a whole different ball game....
Alignment is critical - with anything that you do with ANY shocks....
Just a happy long distance customer - no affiliation etc etc.
Simon.
I run the JIC setup on my turbo and lets say use the car to its (and Mine) ability....
Am very happy with the product - would like easier adjustability (try getting into your rears with an intercooler..... but as a whole - highly recommended. I am one of few down here competitively running them and against PSS9 - its a whole different ball game....
Alignment is critical - with anything that you do with ANY shocks....
Just a happy long distance customer - no affiliation etc etc.
Simon.
10-09-2007, 01:56 PM
#10
Thanks for the responses. Great info, I appreciate it. As far as cost, it looks like the Cross coilovers list for just shy of $3000 for the complete package. Can anyone, I guess namely Mark, mind providing me with what you paid for a complete Moton package? If you don't want to post it here, a pm would be great. Otherwise, I guess I will have to start pinging Steve W.
10-09-2007, 02:33 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
Van,
I think I paid about $3600 for the Motons and springs but that did not include camber plates, installation and who knows what else. Steve sets up a really nice package with brake hardware hangers, canister mounts and lots of other items that other vendors do not provide. Of course, with Steve, you get his 110% customer satisfaction program.
I think I paid about $3600 for the Motons and springs but that did not include camber plates, installation and who knows what else. Steve sets up a really nice package with brake hardware hangers, canister mounts and lots of other items that other vendors do not provide. Of course, with Steve, you get his 110% customer satisfaction program.
10-09-2007, 05:27 PM
#12
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Van,
I think I paid about $3600 for the Motons and springs but that did not include camber plates, installation and who knows what else. Steve sets up a really nice package with brake hardware hangers, canister mounts and lots of other items that other vendors do not provide. Of course, with Steve, you get his 110% customer satisfaction program.
I think I paid about $3600 for the Motons and springs but that did not include camber plates, installation and who knows what else. Steve sets up a really nice package with brake hardware hangers, canister mounts and lots of other items that other vendors do not provide. Of course, with Steve, you get his 110% customer satisfaction program.
10-09-2007, 05:42 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
Well, you drive a set that's been screwed on the car correctly and you won't go back. Period. IF you need to be on that end of the development scale. And they are even pretty good on the street!
As always, if anyone crosses paths with me, take the car out for a few laps and you'll see.
As always, if anyone crosses paths with me, take the car out for a few laps and you'll see.
10-10-2007, 12:14 AM
#15
Are motons reasonable on the street. Can you really get away with running a more street biased spring rate and then adding a couple hundred pounds of nitrogen at the track to firm them up.