mpgandco

I am thinking of buying a 72 Pantera.I know ,why?Just want to play with it for a while I am trying to figure out how to tell if it has a 351 Cleavland or Windsor motor.Can anybody help me out?If it doesn't have the correct motor,I will not buy it
Thanks for any and all help

ed devinney

Cleveland vs Windsor is easy to spot with valve cover bolts (8 C, 6 W) and the manifold. Windsor has the rad hose in the manifold like a SB Chrysler, Cleveland hose comes from the water pump.

The real question is what variant the motor is, and what should be in a Pantera. I know nothing of Panteras but the engines vary by compression, chamber shape, valve size & so on.

Geoffrey

The timing cover is the easiest telltale, however, it may not be accessable with the mid engine layout of the pantera. The Cleveland family will have a flat cover since the gears sit under part of the block. The Windsor will have a profiled timing cover since the gears sit outside the block casting. The thermostat housing on the Cleveland attaches to the top of the block where the windsor has it attached to the intake manifold.

caronsd

All Panteras came with the Cleveland motor.

A few quick external means of identification:

Look at where the cooling water exits the engine ("upper" radiator hose). Factory Windsor motors have the water exiting horizontally from the intake manifold with some sort of bolt-on elbow (typically about a 45-deg bend) to get the hose up and away from the engine. The Cleveland motors have a dry intake manifold - the water exits vertically out of the top of the block, right next to the distributor.

Also, perhaps not as easy to see - the timing chain housing is a separate piece that bolts to the front of the block on the Windsor motor. It is an integfral part of the engine block casting of the Cleveland motor.

Another thing is to note the type of cylinder head. There were 2 Cleveland cylinder heads - the "2V" (2-barrel - referring to the carburetor) and the "4V". The port and valve size of the two are radically different, with the port/valves of the 4V being essentially huge. On the original motors, the cylinder heads have either a "2" or "4" cast into the top corner of the heads. Look at the top right corner of the valve cover (I think this applies to the left side as well, but I'm a little fuzzy) where it meets the head - you should see the number as part of the head casting there. All Panteras were equipped with the 4V motors. Some Cleveland owners were known to substitute 2V heads in order to have better velocity through the ports and valves.

I'm a big fan of the Cleveland motor - had one in an early 70s Cougar and then in my 70 Mach I Mustang. I still have a complete motor that I was building back in the early 80s. It's a little worse for having sat - a fair amount of surface rust on the block (but it was freshly machined with a 0.030 over bore - have new TRW pistons to match mounted on R&R'd rods), - but the heads (4V) are a little better off - they have a 3-angle valve job, new guides, etc. If you know someone looking for such a motor....

Regards,

Steve C.

mpgandco

Thanks you guys.I knew someone would know.Steve,can you EMail me with your phone #,being we are both in the Monterey area.I will post a Picture of the engine,but being Mid Engine it doesn't show much

mpgandco

mpgandco

FotoVeloce

I'm pretty sure you can also tell by the size of the exhaust manifolds/headers if it's a 4v or 2v head. The 4v head has MASSIVE ports.

Those heads are awesome for top-end flow. The 4v heads are considered inferior to the 2v heads for general street use due to port size but for all out *****-to-the-wall performance the v4 head is king.

I sometimes lament the sale of my '66 Mustang notchback. It was powered by a BOSS 302 (yes.. it *will* fit with custom headers). The heads on that thing were the basis for the 4v Cleavland heads.

I've always wanted a Pantera... you'll simply HAVE to post some pics of it.

My old Mustang

FotoVeloce

I could be wrong but those look like 2v valve covers. The covers on the 4v were squared off at the front, I'm pretty sure. I could be wrong though.. it's been over a decade since I'd last touched one of those babies.

EDIT. Duh.. that's the rear of the motor.. the part that is boxed/flat is at the front and I can't see it those photos. The covers look... different but then again one can always swap out for aftermarket covers. *shrug*

caronsd

Defintiely a Cleveland. Running good-'ole Mickey Thompson (M/T) valve covers. Can't really tell 2V vs. 4V by the valve cover shape - they're the same. You can see the 2 or 4 casting on the top edge of the head, but with the angle you can't make it out.

I had the 2V in my Cougar and 4V in the Mach I. Very true about the flow on the 4V heads. With 3.0:1 gears and a close-ratio 4 speed, the Mustang had a hellacious top-end. Aero really hurt - that front-end would float at about 130 mph.

Steve

mpgandco

Steve
Can you Email me direct at mpgandco@sbcglobal.net.Could I get your phone # and call you.You seem to know this stuff email it to me if this is ok.Where are you located?I am in Monterey

mpgandco

Here it is.Anybody interesed,if I decide to pass?

mpgandco

mpgandco

chris walrod

At one point, my Dad had a Pantera, the good one -- called a Pre-L model either a 71 or 72 -- no impact bumpers, antennae mounted at center roof, leading edge. Neat car, but positive ground wiring and its overheating troubles made it a handfull. The ZF transaxle was a bit fragile -- ring gear bolts IIRC.

Anyhow, 351C with 4V ( four barrel) heads is an impressive engine! Not sure why their values never increased much over time?? I believe the engines were built by Mercury Marine in Canada in conjunction with FORD.