Phokaioglaukos

Thoughts on the thread HERE? ?

RallyJon

Well, here's one thought: any argument where one party has to resort to the line (or concept), "if you don't get it, I guess that means you're not fast enough" is an instant dead ender.

Phokaioglaukos

I respect Joel Reiser. He's the PCA technical guru for these cars.

Bull

Where did you see that quote in that thread? If you are referring to Joel's explanation, his quote was "I suppose if you only drive your car slowly, you may never see the problem". And as I posted in that thread, "If you drive your '95 on the street, or below 8/10s on the track, then it really shouldn't matter".

Just a BIT different from your post above, which is a real "dead ender"!

Bull

Actually, not true, as it isn't an accurate quote of Joel's post.

For those who haven't looked at that thread, here is Joel's post on the subject:

"Excuse me? I know of a number of cars that were crashed and totalled due to this problem. This problem and my experience with it goes back 13 years. With the first one or two, we figured it was driver error. But later the numbers increased, and a number of them were very experienced instructors. The 993 has passive rear steering. The 1994 & 1995 cars can get into a mode where it suddenly tugs back & forth on you in a high speed corner. If that happens, you are in deep trouble. Porsche also found this problem during the testing during development of the 993 Turbo. They made "minor suspension geometry changes". To me that is not so minor. They mean small distances were changed. The result is a big difference, and a great change. It is a no-brainer. Why would you risk crashing your car and spending or losing $20,000 to $40,000 instead of $2,000? I suppose if you only drive your car slowly, you may never see the problem.

The subframe and arches do not need to be changed. Please read that a little closer.

When you put even some of the new parts in, the alignment (toe) will now change. That establishes that the geometry has changed".

Phokaioglaukos

Fixed, Bob.

Bull

Chris, thanks! I just don't like the loose use of quotation marks, and I know that is not what intended.

Dudley

"I know of a number of cars that were crashed and totalled due to this problem. This problem and my experience with it goes back 13 years. With the first one or two, we figured it was driver error. But later the numbers increased, and a number of them were very experienced instructors."

It's a shame we could not get this information to the PCA & Porsche N.A. Sounds like a recall is in-order.

RallyJon

I'm not referring to Joel's explanation, incomplete thought it may be. I'm referring to what the thread degenerated into the last time it came up. And I guess you helped with that degeneration?

The issue here is that there is a discussion of what MIGHT BE a critical weakness in the rear suspension design. Except for the many people who track these horribly flawed cars routinely, with no problems whatsoever. So it's a problem that affects some drivers, under some circumstances. Wouldn't it make sense to examine the margins?

Two points that I have yet to see resolved, despite the continued rehashing of this "problem":

1) What are the precise, dimensional differences between the original parts and their replacements? And 1b) What is the effect on the alignment at every point in the suspension travel? Should be pretty easy to model once someone starts talking about millimeters instead of part numbers.

2) Given that we're not talking about component failure here, it should be possible to mitigate the bad effects with appropriate alignment, at some cost to the racer looking for the last 10th, but little cost to the rest of us. If a notch more toe-in, or an adjustment of the KT can keep the problem from happening, let's find out about it.

Let's talk about specific steps that '95 owners can take that don't involve complete rear suspension replacement instead of all the chest beating.

Bull

Talk about whatever you want, just don't use quotation marks around words that are not a direct quote from the referenced thread. What "Chest beating"??? Is that what you call facts that differ from your opinions?

As an owner of a '95 993, do you drive it at more than 8-9/10s on the track?

RallyJon

Or opinions that are based on a lack of facts. Got any facts?

What is 8-9/10ths? Is that when the back end tries to pass the front end? Happened to me all the time on the street, until I got my alignment straightened out.

Geoffrey

The "if you can't feel it you aren't driving it fast enough" was MY comment specifically directed at Mark in Baltimore and was meant to be taken in a "tongue and cheek" fashon knowing his racing credentials. It was not meant to insult anyone by any means. Blame me.

Bull

Sorry you had your alignment screwed up, which will exacerbate the problem.

Joel posted the facts from his experience with '95s both on the track, when he was racing with Tony Callas, and in his shop. Others have done the same in the other thread.

For those interested in more facts, as posted by another Rennlister on the other thread:

"read the PCA tech article. Joel has all the part numbers there. I also witnessed this change being done in Joel's shop. Parts are CLEARLY different in length. I have posted this before and not gotten a good response. Just trying to help. No reply needed".

I guess some owners didn't like to hear it then either.

jmreiser

For some '95 owners it truly isn't a problem. But that doesn't mean their suspension is correct, and it doesn't mean they won't hit those conditions later on, like when the rubber bushings age and stretch. It is simply their choice to make the change or take the risk, and own their choice, not lash out at others. If you don't change it, and your car works fine, I'm good with that.

Nor does the problem experienced by others mean that all cars are horribly flawed. Many of us just want to make our car better, and when you can do it with factory parts, it seems like someone might ought to mention it. Why shoot the messenger?

Can you fix it with alignment, no you can't.

Can you measure all the parts, yes you can. It is not as easy as it looks though. If you have a good way to do it, I'd love to see the results.

My point was and is that people should be aware, and make their own decisions. Bruce Anderson used to get dumped on by owners of 2.7 engines with mag cases because he wrote about the head studs pulling out. Therefore it was somehow his fault that the valuations were lower. It was only the owners who didn't deal with the problem that got agitated. The ones who had them time-serted added value to their cars. Then he got dumped on because he didn't warn everyone about some other problem. Which way would you like it?

BTW it is possible that some later-build cars have the later parts. Can anyone confirm?

clubsport1

I have a '95 car, as it left the factory and have never had a problem on track