umfan866

Hi,

Yesterday I went and saw this car (pics in link)
http://www.burlingameeuropean.com/detail.cfm?ID=201881

1997 Carrera 4S Coupe 2D red/tan 61,990 miles. Asking $41,888.00
(The dealer helped the seller come down from $50k which he initially wanted to sell the car for. Owner is quite affluent and would like to keep the car but doesnt have garage space in his 3 car garage).

Option Codes (from under the hood)
437 Comfort seat left
454 Automatic speed control
490 Hi-Fi sound system
650 Sunroof
C02 Equipped with catalytic converter
688 Radio cd CDR210

My impressions/ what I found out.
- the body was in very good shape. Original paint. Needs a polish/wax and the odd stone/rock chip. One ding in the left rear flare that could be handled by a dentless paint guy. Front left bottom of spoiler scraped about the size of a palm ..showing black. Someone hit a curb or scraped a driveway.
-clean inside, no cracks in dash, seats perfect. Carpet pretty clean, just looks it could use a shampoo to get some shine
-the sales guy had some problems starting the car. The solotion was to lock it, unlock it, then start the car (wierd).
- recently the owner had some oil leaks which were fixed. The fix involved doing a complete top-end "while they were in there." The work was done at the local Porsche dealer and the bill came to 12k but they only charged him 8k as the owner is a premier customer (recently bought a 911 Turbo and has had many other Porsche's bought & serviced at this dealer). The Top-end work is still under warranty.
-the current owner has had the car for 2 years and the bill & records for those 2 years are available, some other records may be available, but not all of the records are known.
-car had a multi-CD player. The HU said Porsche, the unit in the front of the car (hood compartment)? said sony or pioneer.
- was unable to drive it - the owner needs to be present and won't let the consignment shop's customers drive it.
-heater worked, not sure about the A/C.
-car appeared 100% stock, no mods that I could tell.
-the wheels said 4S on them and were light allows.
-the rear deck is a single grill -- not sure why it is not
a dual grill like on C2S's if it is a C4S (but I think this
is normal).
-I have yet to run a carfax.

-- My question - what is this car worth?

Nadaguides for a 97 C4S with 61,990 miles.
Low Retail Avg Retail High Retail
$31,500 $34,750* $35,77

KBB Wholesale Private Party Retail
Excellent $32,650 $36,050 $39,650
Good $31,060 $34,250

Excellence So-so excellent
$29,684 $39,738

Edmunds $24,060 $23,368 $29,218

As you see, I get wildly varying estimates from a low
of $24,060 to a high of $39,738.

Any comments/help appreciated.

InTheAir

First, throw those numbers from KBB, NADA, and even Excellence out the window.

Second, the price you negotiated is quite fair already.

Third, I would have loved to see it lowered with an upgraded suspension. When (if) were the shocks replaced? If never, they are horribly shot by now.

Finally, it sounds like it needs some good aesthetic TLC, inside and out.

Just be sure to take it to another shop for a detailed PPI, including a leakdown and compression.

troppo

great deal for a 4s!

mrsullivan

thats a steal, buy it

obchuck

KBB, Edmunds, etc = worthless. Each car exists on it's own in the grey area that is 993 valuation.

Wilder

obchuck is right. I have seen two or three similar examples (S cars with 70 to 80k mi) sell in the high 30's. Given your description of the car and the 60k mi, the asking price seems right on the money. Sounds like a decent car. BTW, split grilles only come in the 2S not the 4Ss.

Carrera GT

It's not a steal at any price until you have it through a PPI.
I think it's a big plus if the original owner is selling on consignment and won't let random tyre-kickers drive it. If that story from the sales type is true. Could be.
It has motor sound, so the option list is not complete. Can you get the window sticker and service history receipts?
Carfax is always useful, but it should show only one owner and smog records. Maybe 10 entries?
Are those N rated tyres?
The front brake rotor is looking worn, again, a PPI is crucial to deciding value and go/no-go on buying a 993.
If you like guards red over cashmere and the inspection is thumbs up, $42K seems perfectly fair.
Budget on dampers and consider getting the car down to the correct ride height along with the usual $1-3K of tidy-up stuff to bring the car back to condition.
I know that consignment shop -- did Rector do the top-end work? Presumably that was an SAI problem. If they have records, you could review them. Talking with anyone at the dealership about the car will be futile -- they won't break ranks and disclose any issues.
Looks like a nice, unmolested car in good condition with mileage a bit below average. Nice find. The most likely places this car could cost the next owner would be in very boring things like power steering, a/c, suspension consumables like dampers, bushings, brake components, clutch and electrics.
If the body, chassis, suspension, engine and transaxle all check out, this is looking like great find. And for sure, if that's all original paint, the Guards Red will look like new with just some basic attention to detailing.

geolab

my guess, the car is already lowered.
The brake discs have been washed and used slightly in the parking, this is why they look partially rusty like this.
The rear split grill is only for carrera S.

The carrera 4S emblem on the rear engine lid is not the original one.
I would focus my attention to the inside engine compartment, and see if the car had a rear shock.

Carrera GT

Now you plant the seed, I'd agree the 4S looks a bit odd, but it could be the photo or camera angle.
The brake rotors don't look good and I can't say why they're rusty and grooved orther than the odometer.
Given the "three fingers" under the front wheel arches above the tyres, this is a stock US market "off road" ride height. And, to me, that's a good thing ... no fiddling.

umfan866

geolab,

What makes you say that the decklid is not original? Something in the photos?
You know when we were popping upt the trunklid it took several attempts it
was a very tight fit, maybe something has been done with that rear end...

To answer some other questions, the top-end work was done at Rector Porsche
in Burlingame, and this dealer has the bill for the top-end and I can view it.
Even if it was an SAI issue, I guess the top-end would fix that (as well as any
questions about valve guides)

The VIN is WP0AA2994VS322571 in case anyone wants to check it- I don't have
an active Carfax right now. I'd definately get a PPI done, at Kirberg Motors where
Ralph works on 993s all the time. I don't know if I need a leakdown & compression
if the top-end was just done and is still under warranty right?

Its a bit surprising to hear folks say the price is right on. The thing I mentioned about
going from 50k down to 41k was not me, but the consignment guy (Burlingame European)
convincing the owner way back to be more realistic. I haven't negotiated anything yet with
the consignment guy or the owner. In fact, this car has been sitting at that price for around
4-6 months now, and when I called they said the owner was going to take it back home and
was supposed to come pick it up in a few days or so, ending the consignment period. So it
might be the right time to pop on offer on him/them, assuming the PPI checked out. I was
thinking something in the mid- to high-30's. I'd need to test-drive it first of course.

Ironically, I wasn't even really seriously considering this car - I went to this dealer to get a
close-up look at a 993 (and had hoped to drive one) based on the advice of my mechanic
to go drive a 993 "even if they are asking a million dollars for it" -- to compare with the
87 - 89 3.2 / g50s I have been driving. Based on my research the only other 993 model
I could really afford is a high-mileage 993 for about 20-25k. I don't reallly like the idea
of a 4S would rather get a rear-wheel drive car. However, this car is red, and with the
rebuild, thats why I was trying to figure out how good a deal it is--also someone I know
who is also looking might be interested and he may have a little more leeway with the
money situation.

I may start another thread on the 995 993 I was considering--- it sure helps to have 993
experts (only) - in this dedicated forum (I'm certainly impressed with the number of responses I've gotten!!)

BTW - just this morning I missed a chance at a 995 993 w/ 113k miles in good shape, maintained at the Porsche dealer etc, for $14.5k. It was on cars.com for 24 hours. I was the 2nd guy to call, and I'm 2nd in line in case the first buyer backs out. I doubt I still have a chance, but if I do, I'll start a thread on that car also.

Thanks!! Marvin.

eichlerman

Great color and good price.

I would also ask if the 60k service has been performed and by whom. Expect to pay $1000 to $3000 plus based on what you can do yourself and what's required – distributor caps, rotors, plugs, wires, brakes, … fluids, filters, …

donsacto

That car has been for sale for a long time, get a PPI if your're going to buy.

AOW162435

The color on the front bumper looks different from that of the hood and fender. Hopefully just a re-spray to correct rock chips.

You said the decklid was difficult to close - could you elaborate? They usually just close very easily.

Andreas

geolab

What I meant is that the carrera the 4 and the S on the rear engine lid are not what comes on a 4S lid.
on a 4S the 4fits in the S letter and not aside. and the question could be why?
It might have been kids who stole the lettering, but now you say the lid does not open freely.
It confirms maybe something to look closer at.
As for the brake discs, what I mean is that the discs could be good.
Being at a car reseller, this car is washed often, and not driven.
All know how these discs rust after a wash (especially the aftermarket ones)
The signs on the picture even show the rust fallen on the inner wheel. Usually a sign of washing
and not driving, but is not a sign that those should not be checked.

Greg Fishman

This car looks lowered. A stock height (US) is much higher.