B-Line

Hey guys,

I would like to start attending more track days in SoCal. I was wondering if you could recommend some clubs. I prefer to go to the track when it is a two day event. Lots of track time, etc.

1) Thought I might go with POC but they are more for racing it would seem.
2) Already belong to Tracquest/NCRC

So what other clubs often go to, ButtonWillow, Infineon, Parumph(sp?), Streets of Willow (I hate the big track). California Speedway (road track/oval), etc..

Thanks,
B

TroyN

Try NASA, they put on great events: nasaproracing.com. I'd guess SCCA has something too.

David '96 993

B,
You might concider POC. It is not just racing. They also do time trials. You do not need to race to run with them. The requirements are that you complete 3 days at the Streets of Willow and one school to get your license. Once you have done that, you may run on the "big" tracks (Willow, Cal Speedway, Buttonwillon, Laguna Sece, LVMS etc...). They are quite strict (i.e. safety, safety, safety) about the rules. It is in everyones best interests.

PCA (San Diego Region) does some track events.

NASA is great, but I did have a rather interesting experience when I was in their DE group with open passing (their TT run group).

jrgordonsenior

I'll second David's advice regarding the POC. You won't find a more thorough learning environment than their Streets of Willow short track events. Hours of daily track time with extremely competent and caring instructors who are all volunteering their time. Safety orienated, results posted daily on My Laps, and an all around great experience. The next "Streets" event is this coming weekend....

http://www.porscheownersclub.org/eve...SE41-Info.html

B-Line

Hey David,

I have thought about POC but truthfully, I think it's a little much of a pain in the ****. I might not be the fastest guy on the track but I certainley have a lot of seat time. I'm also a grad of Skip Barber 3 day and two day advanced racing school.
So to have to run with a green group and sit in a class room while they teach me what an APEX is, is definately not my speed. As much as I respect safety, I haven't been a green driver since 1998. Also, I have driven the big track at Willow twice, Did Laguna Seca in a Formula Dodge, just went to Buttonwillow this past weekend. I can also add to my list of tracks: Thunderhill, Sebring, Homestead, Moroso, Daytona, Limerock, Pocono..
Sorry for giving you my resume, I am just trying to express why POC would probably not be the right group for me. -- Maybe if they offered a check out ride but it would seem they are more worried about their rules than they are about the actual experience of the drivers.
-- Also, let me explain. The reason I want to stay away from time trials is simple. If I'm on the clock, my insurance does not cover my car.
I'm really looking for clubs that are more like a "test and tune" with a school added on (for insurance reasons.)
Besides, POC has so many cars showing up, I find it hard to believe you get the same sort of track time I get with other clubs.

Thanks again and look forward to hearing more advice.
B

touf

Hi B-Line, PCA in San Diego puts together some great events. For this year however only 1 event remains in Nevada.
Check out www.pcasdr.org for more info

Tom W

You can get a waiver from POC to do time trials without the normal school. You have to ask. I got the waiver but never have been able to make it to an event (work gets in the way of fun too often).

I did do a DE with POC a few years ago and would never repeat that experience.

I like NASA HPDE 3 and 4. They run a different program than NCRC (very different) but it's worth a try.

Martin S.

tongue. You write, "I have thought about POC but truthfully, I think it's a little much of a pain in the ****. I might not be the fastest guy on the track but I certainley have a lot of seat time. I'm also a grad of Skip Barber 3 day and two day advanced racing school." My first question, and probably that of most readers, with all that experience, why arn't you the Fast Guy?

My friend, you don't need a school to participate with POC in the Short Track Series....just come out this weekend. Go to www.porscheownersclub.com for the registration forms. Call Marty Metherian and request a POC Instructor. Regardless of credentials, we don't let anyone out on the track without an instructor.

So to have to run with a green group and sit in a class room while they teach me what an APEX is, is definately not my speed. As much as I respect safety, I haven't been a green driver since 1998. Also, I have driven the big track at Willow twice, Did Laguna Seca in a Formula Dodge, just went to Buttonwillow this past weekend. I can also add to my list of tracks: Thunderhill, Sebring, Homestead, Moroso, Daytona, Limerock, Pocono..

Pleasssse, just come out to the Short Track Series...If you are that experienced and can drive well, I am certain that the POC drivers would love to take a lesson from you.

Clearly you have gobs of experience. POC would love to have you come to a short track series event. However, POC is very rigid when it comes to safety. You need to prove yourself to POC.

Sorry for giving you my resume, I am just trying to express why POC would probably not be the right group for me. -- Maybe if they offered a check out ride but it would seem they are more worried about their rules than they are about the actual experience of the drivers.

You can get a check out ride at the Time Trial series, but you had better be good, damn good, or else you are going home.

Also, let me explain. The reason I want to stay away from time trials is simple. If I'm on the clock, my insurance does not cover my car.

Bottom line, if you can't afford to wad your car up into a ball, you shouldn't be racing. Racing is inherently dangerous...it alkways has been

I'm really looking for clubs that are more like a "test and tune" with a school added on (for insurance reasons.) Besides, POC has so many cars showing up, I find it hard to believe you get the same sort of track time I get with other clubs.

You know, you are right....you will get more track time with other clubs (Other than POC). However, you wont get more qualitiy track time that POC provides. With clubs other than POC, you wont know if the driver coming up behind you is competent or over his head...or the driver in front of you..will they do an unpredictible move? If the driver has been through the POC Program, they will probably be OK. POC trains drivers...we have had lots of folks come over with credentials such as you have....we can still teach them a thing or two.

A POC Cup Racing License is Golden. You can take it to any Club and be accepted as a racer. This is not true of any other club license I know of...with POC its all about Show Us, Show Us How Good You Are! If you can do that, and at the same time gain the confidence of fellow POC drivers, then you can be a member of the Club.

Martin Schacht'
2006 POC Time Trial Chairman
POC Cup Racer

Martin S.

You can get a waiver from POC to do time trials without the normal school. You have to ask. I got the waiver but never have been able to make it to an event (work gets in the way of fun too often).

Tom...this is not normally the case. If you do get an exception, you had better have an exceptional driving CV. Maybe in the days of olde this happened, but not anymore.

Tom adds, "I did do a DE with POC a few years ago and would never repeat that experience." Tom you should be more specific on what you didn't like before yoiu slander POC. I was probably at that event you allude to, and from my perspective, it was great....I suspect your are talking about Laguna Seca a few years back. On our three (3) day weekend, we created a special one (1) day DE day, Friday. We allowed people to run that day with DE type credentials. POC certified drivers could drive Saturday and Sunday as well; the DE drivers had to go home. Tom...be kind, how bad was it?

B-Line

-- To answer truthfully, since I moved to California my track days have been few and far between. I was busy finishing my education (got my MFA) and didn't have time for the track. Fast drivers are ones that have a lot of seat time, regularly. Nothing wrong with being smooth, consistent and working back up to a comfortable, fast level with time.. I'm not trying to win any races, YET.

Martin,
Lastly - The group I used to run with in Florida and even instructed for used to be POC. Then because of some corporate falling out it became POC-Florida, Then it merged with BMW and NASA and became PBOC-Florida (Porsche Bmw Owners Club Florida). I understand why you would go to the efforts to have me come to a short track event but bottom line, you said it yourself, I'll get more track time with other clubs. And, if my Skip racing license isn't good enough for POC and my membership in POC/POC FLORIDA/NASA and PBOC Florida don't stand for anything either, i'd just assume run with a club that will give me track time. I don't really find the need at this time to spend the time or $$$ to go to Willow to get less track time. I have no doubt your instructors are outstanding and I can always use improvement but pardon me for not wanting to have to prove my worthiness while getting less track time. -- Doesn't make a lot of sense from my stand point.

-- In terms of racing, when I am ready, I'll do it with skip. I'd rather wad up their cars then my 97C2S. Anytime the clock is on, insurance is off.

Thanks and maybe I'll consider POC in the future--but not now.

B-Line

Also,

When I do track events, my brother and I share my 993. Assuming you have only one run group for students that "need" instructors, I would guess this would be a problem. As he races and also has a lot of track experience, you would not let him out either. So now we have two drivers sharing one car in one run group.. with limited track time.. Doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun..

B

Martin S.

MFA, congratulations...this is a degree I'll never go after since I am still drawing stick figures.. B-Line writes, "And, if my Skip racing license isn't good enough for POC and my membership in POC/POC FLORIDA/NASA and PBOC Florida don't stand foranything..."

I am certain your credentials will be acceptable. There is a waiver process at POC. As an example, you could come out to a POC Time Trial, present your credentials and request a waiver of the requirement that you first get a Short Track Series License. You would request a check out ride by a POC Instructor.

Don't be insulted.....a check ride is mandatory for everyone. We need to see you at speed.. Also, POC TT are a blast.....you DONT have to run a transponder, hence you would not be timed. You could run in Exhibition Class.

POC TTs as you know, are very tightly run and safety is at a premium. Passing is restricted to delineated passing zones, and only with a signal from the driver being passed. No signal, no pass.

In conclusion, I think you will find a POC TT a very pleasant experience. You will get to run the best tracks in the west: Willow Springs, Laguna Seca, Las Vegas International Speedway, California Speedway, Buttonwillow Raceway. And you will be running with some very well trained drivers.

Enclosed is an outstanding article (I wrote it!) below (an enclosed file) that sheds a little more light on the POC TT process and where it can take you. We welcome you as a potential member. Running with POC is a world class experience.

ZombiePorsche44

I have done track time with PCA, POC, NASA, PRS & SCCA in every kind of event from Auto-X to Cup & Pro Racing.

I would have to say that the POC has the very best combination of driver events and knowlegeable instructors dedicated to teaching you how to drive your car at it's extreme limits thru many steps starting with Auto-X's all the way up to Cup Racing.

Be warned, they are not the social wine & cheese kind of Porsche organization, they are racers!

In POC events in the past I have raced with and spent time learning techniques, from the likes of Price Cobb, David Murray & other Professional drivers who come to play with the POC. You won't find that at NASA and rarely at PCA events.

I'm still a member of PCA for many reasons but racing is not one of them.

ZP44

Tom W

Martin, While I think POC is a great organization, that DE was the worst I've ever attended. And yes, you are correct it's the one at LS a couple years ago.

We got three 20 minute run sessions (for over $200) and the run group was a mix of people with no track experience to people like myself who had 30+ days (at the time). I was surprised to discover at the event that an instructor was required for every session and no one could "solo". The instructor I was assigned to had never run at Laguna before and I ended up showing him the line. I did not like the mix of a new student in a honda civic trying to learn about the track and folk like me - it lead to some large closing speeds and a lot of putt-putting around waiting to be able to pass.

I was not aware that it was such a special case to get an exemption. While I would not do a DE with POC again, I would like to potentially do a time trial.

B-Line

This is exactly what I am afraid a POC event will be like for me. The $200 for the track fee is peanuts. What about the time and money spent getting to the track, preparing the car, brakes, tires, fluids, fuel, food and drink, trailer, etc.
- Not to say I can't learn anything from your instructors.. But I certainley can't learn anything waiting for mr. boxter to give me a point by. And (3) 20 minute sessions is an insult.

I am always looking to improve my driving. I am even going to take the Skip Barber 2 day Advanced Racing course, AGAIN.. I want to rebuild confidence and speed since I have slowed in my absence from track time. I wish POC were the right group for me but based on everything I have just read, all my fears have been addressed Tom.

If I ever get into TT, I will make the effort but for now you just don't offer what I want.

Thanks,
B