Anir

I feel guilty bringing up this topic when there's still so much beautiful weather left , but...

What wheels and tires do folks use for winter driving in their 993s? Positives and negatives?

I actually drove all last winter on the summer S-02s. They really poop out below 25 degrees. It's a miracle I didn't wreck. This time, I'd like to be better prepared.

Jay H

Anir:

I can't comment on what winter tires will fit on a Porsche (mine gets stored over winter), but I can give you some feedback on winter tires I have used over the years on other vehicles.

The original Blizzak WS-15 tires turn our F-body into a snowmobile. They don't handle well in dry conditions, but they're not designed to. It seems this model is being discontinued. That's too bad because they were excellent snow tires. The worse the conditions got, the better the tires dug in.

I've used Dunlop Graspic tires as well. The Dunlops are better than 3 season (summer) tires, but I feel they don't grip as good as the Blizzaks in poor conditions.

I've had experience with the new Blizzak MZ series tires. They don't do as well as the original WS-15's, but they handle better in the dry and seem to handle slushy conditions better. Seems to be more of a compromise winter tire.

Hope this helps,

Jay

993Widebody

I used Dunlop winter sports (I think they were M2s) on my Audi last winter and thought they were great.

You should get somewhat narrow wheels to go with them, no wider than 17 inch, but possibly 16 inch wheels, since it is said that the narrower the wheel, the better performance in the snow.

With that said, I had 225/45/17 on my Audi and they were really excellent.

STLPCA

Anir
Found a few of my old Board posts on this subject from last year:

Date: posted 10/23/00 at 12:38 p.m.

Most dedicated snow tires are excellent for ice and snow [e.g., Bridgestone Blizzak, regular Michelin Alpin, etc.], but they have low speed ratings (Q or T) and in the dry they wear rapidly and handle/brake very poorly. My experience is they suck at above 50F.

There are H rated low profile winter tires like the Dunlop Winter Sport M2 (Porsche approved), Pirelli Winter 210 & Pilot Alpin that are very good in snow, good on ice and wear and handle surprisingly well in the dry. They also better tolerate higher winter temps.

IMO all tires represent a compromise of priorities. If most of your winter driving will be on dry roads, winter tires probably make more sense - especially for your C4. They'll leave your car enjoyable in the dry, but keep you going in the snow. If your primary concern is ice/snow - get single purpose snow tires and, other than ground clearance, you'll be leaving SUVs at the bottom of hills.

In either case, it makes sense to get them mounted on a spare set of wheels. Also remember that in snow narrow tires are better - more compromises. Hope this helps.

Date: posted 12/15/00 at 7:38 p.m.

Had 5+ inches of snow the other day & freezing rain today. Had already mounted my spare 16" wheels w/Dunlop HR Winter Sports on my garage queen (she is the queen of my garage) and went out to play.

Snow/Ice - not as good as Blizzaks, but clearly better than a FWD sedan w/"all seasons" & I'd guess better than an AWD sedan w/o snows. Confident, predictable handling. Had no trouble accelerating & climbing grades w/the SUVs. Braking was straight, controlled & surprisingly short (albeit w/plenty of ABS assist).

Dry roads - far better than pure snows (Blizzak, Alpin, etc.). Very drivable w/decent handling but w/more oversteer (205 front/225 rears) and less steering response. An excellent compromise of dry, snow, cold weather performance.

Verdict - a blast, especially if you like power oversteer. I highly recommend these tires for winter fun - for those of you who have that season.

Postscript -

Having gone through one St. Louis winter (very cold & several decent snows), I'm still happy w/my choices and the Dunlops show virtually no wear. I've used Blizzaks on my Volvo T5 for the past several years and they have been great snow/ice tires. But, we get wild temp swings (e.g. 60 to 30 degrees in 24 hours) and they turn to butter and wear like crazy above 50. I think I'd tear through them in a season with the P-car. Plus I'd like a higher speed rating than Q in case I inadvertantly hit my gas pedal too hard. However, with your tt, after tire choice you also need to decide whether to stay w/18s or downsize to narrower, more compliant 17s - again trading sloppy weather traction & bad road durability for dry weather performance.

Hope this helps.

Anir

Jay, Rob, & Dan,

Thanks for the detailed tire info. I appreciate it.

I may need to go with 17" wheels, since choices are somewhat limited in an 18" size.

Viken

Anir,

You can go for the Pirelli Winter 210 Asimmetrico in either 17" or 18" sizes.

7" x 17" ET55 - 205/50R17
9" x 17" ET55 - 255/40R17 (must use 31 mm spacer)

8" x 17" ET52 - 225/40R18
10" x 18" ET40 - 265/35R18 or
10" x 18" ET65 - 265/35R18 (must use 25 mm spacer)

STLPCA

Anir
The Dunlops are also available in the correct 17" and 18" sizes for you. The 18" look to be V rated - pretty wild for a cold weather compound winter tire!

I've also heard good things about the Pirelli 210, but have no direct experience with them. Either should be fine for your climate.

Dunlop Winter Sport M2 Product Listing

Anir

Thanks, Viken & Dan! Very helpful info!

A.J. - 95 993

It just so happens I was speaking with our friends at the Tire Rack yesterday about this very topic. The tire they recommended was the Blizzak LM22. I had the Blizzak WS-15 (I think it was) on my wife's old Mustang GT Convertible, and it was amazing in the snow. The city was shut down with over 20" of snow, and we went looking at houses in unplowed neighborhoods and barely spun a tire. But on the dry road (which is most of the winter down here in Louisville), they were horrible - squirmed all over the place, and vibrated so much your hands were a blur on the steering wheel. We only used them once in two seasons. The Tire Rack said the LM22 was an H rated tire, and perform "much better" on the dry pavement. I have a friend who swore by the Pirelli 210's, which he used on his VW Corrado, and inquired about them. The salesman steered me right back to the LM22, but I don't remember why. The price for the Blizzak's was a bit disappointing - nearly $700 for 205 and 255 17". Evidently there is a big jump in price past 16".

Anir

AJ,

The Tire Rack's comparison between the LM22, Pirelli 210, and Dunlop M2 puts the LM22 ahead in several categories, e.g. road rating, acceleration, braking. Of course, these "objective" tests can be quite subjective, but this may explain their bias.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...perftest_2.htm

I noticed you live "just down the street". The problem I've encountered in Kentucky is similar to that in Dan's final post from the old boards: wild temperature swings of 20-40 degrees in a day. Makes it hard to choose one perfect tire, so a combination approach (i.e. high-speed-rated snow tire) will probably work best for me.

Greg Fishman

Anir,
Just have two sets and if the weather looks bad change them out. I ran the Pirelli snow tires on my M3 last winter and they were great in the snow and acceptable in the dry.

Greg

Anir

Hey Greg,

On re-reading my post, it sounds like I plan to use the V-rated snow tires year round. What I meant is that I'd use a non-ice tire (i.e. a somewhat less aggressive dedicated snow tire, such as the Pirelli 210 or Dunlop M2) for the winter. For summer/fall/spring, I'll stick to S-02s, P-zeros, or the like.

Greg Fishman

Sorry for the confusion. I meant during the bad winter spells put the snows on and when it is above freezing use the summer tires. You remember last year we had one month of bad winter weather and the rest of the time was just cold but no snow.
This is what I am going to do if I have to drive it in the snow. Hopefully I will just carpool with the wife in the ML.
Greg

Ran

Anir,

Greg brings up a good point about how few times we really need snow tyres in some winters atleast if not most recent winters. Which leads me to wonder if what works for me might work for you too given that you both live close by. Out here in Southern NJ/Phila area we have a grand total of 5 to 15 snow/ice days and another 15 days of snow/ice threat or salt on roads. Don't get me wrong - the other days are very cold sometimes but nice brisk bright days are great driving days especially in our 993s with not so great AC to contend with in summer. Our snow tyres thus come in the form of a winter beater car. It may not make sense if you have all kinds of tools to make changes etc in your own garage but for me with zero tools, it is a very cost efficient solution and is great to have around as a car for those one in awhile situations where I might want/need to park it in places like the remote lot at EWR/PHL/JFK since all these places are permanently under construction.

Basically I hated the idea of wasting so many great driving days in winter. It is a 4 month long spell. But it depends on how much discretion your occupation allows. On that occasional really poor day, I just dont drive anywhere (1/2 days a year maybe) - not that people work those.. they just get to work and moan about how long it took and then get ready to leave.

Greg Fishman

The idea of a semi-disposable car is not a bad idea either. My main purpose for getting snow tires is that I travel some with my job and often in rural areas that don't get plowed or salted and the ability to get to an apointment without worry is well worth the trouble and expense of the tires.

And honestly I would have rather have driven my M3 with proper snow tires than the 4 wheel drive ML with all seasons in the moderate to light snow we get in Ky. It was actually fun doing my imitations of a rally driver in the M3 with control instead of wondering which ditch or curb I was going to end up in. To venture out in the M3 or 993 without proper tires is asking for big time trouble, you are going to have an accident or end up offroad.

Hey Ej,
Don't even think about driving your wife's C-class without snow tires. I wasn't even able to move ours out of the driveway with a 5% grade before I put winter tires on.

I would prefer not to drive the Porsche on those snowy days because all the SUVs think that the law of physics doesn't apply to them.

Greg