Speed Ventures and the Rumble
10-04-2004, 08:11 PM
#1
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Speed Ventures and the Rumble
After the great time we all had together at Buttonwillow, I emailed a letter to Aaron at Speed Ventures, describing some of the problems that were encountered, and what I felt was the obligation of the event organizer. Aaron responded with a very frank reply, and in the interest of getting all this aired out, I asked for his permission to post his response to the board. I will also invite Aaron to participate in any ongoing discussion that may result. My perspective is that he is not being defensive, but is accepting the criticisms and is going to take the steps required to get them corrected. I think this is a very positive attitude. The email:
Aaron Bitterman Speed <aaron@speedventures.net> wrote:
Hi Steve,
I agree with your points and appreciate the feedback. I am aware of the problems you've raised and was frustrated by them all weekend.
We're not accustomed to having such a large turnout - last weekend was the biggest event we've ever had by 50 cars (over the course of the weekend) and, compared to a typical event, we had 3x the signups (180 instead of 60). Usually we have about 50-60 drivers per day, 3 run groups and about 20 cars per group average. Our goal was to have 25 cars per run group average (100 cars total per day) and 4 run groups, which is an acceptable number for a 3 mile track. But, this necessarily leads to crowded middle groups. Nobody wants to run in the "yellow" group because there are very slow novices there, so that yellow group ends up having too few cars. The advanced "red" group is also undersubscribed because we, naturally, want only very experienced drivers in that group and were moving people out of RED periodically throughout the weeekend.
On Sunday, after the first white session, we moved 12-15 people around, taking the fastest times and moving them to blue and the slowest down to yellow. So, we did make some attempt, though perhaps not enough. After moving people around, I did receive positive feedback from those in the white group that it was now at acceptable levels, at about 28 cars. By "acceptable", I mean compared to many other open lapping organizations, not necessarily for my taste.
Generally speaking, our method of simply signing up 100 people for a 4-run group event did not work. My guess is that we turned off a lot of people and lost potential repeat Speed Ventures customers.
Going forward, we will implement a system in which we sign people up for specific run groups, rather than the event as a whole. We will be able to make sure that the intermediate group(s) are not oversubscribed, cutting off signups based on run groups, rather than overall count. Additionally, I will start to forcibly move people in and out of groups based on their behavior/performance on track, something we've never really HAD to do systematically. Certainly we've done it, and did do it a lot last weekend, but in a rather casual way. We will now implement a system where the run groups are more carefully groomed.
During the weekend, we did do some policeing as well, but not nearly enough. The problem is that a system needs to be put in place for doing this, something we haven't had to to before because it's been easy for us to pay attention to what's happening on track. Going forward I am going to have the starter/marshall record off-track excursions, those who ignore black flags, unsafe/illegal passes, and other issues by car/driver. This will allow me, personally, (rather than Rosemary) to have more definitive discussions with people and kick them off track if they ignore our directions a second time. I generally leave it up to the corner workers and they generally do a fine job and inform me of drivers' behavior. Last weekend, their discretion was not enough and nobody was keeping track of who was doing what *how many times*. It's just a matter of easily implementing a system where I, personally, don't have to be watching the track from the tower the entire time - something I cannot do.
Truthfully, I don't mind being a policeman and I have no problem kicking people out of events if they ignore instructions a second time. We've done it many times before when people did so after either John or I personally told them to stop. Obviously we need to work with the corner workers more than we are to get the same job done.
So, I have little else to say in our defense, your honor. But we're working on our offense, so things will improve. If there's a post event discussion about these topics, or any other, that you'd like me to participate in, let me know.
Thanks for your help organizing the Rennlisters. If you personally would like drive at another event in the future, compliments of Speed Ventures, to conduct an inspection of our operational changes
, we'd like to have you. Maybe you'll feel comfortable recommending us to your crew again afterwards. Unfortunately, I can't guarantee we'll have 180 signups, so you probably won't get to see us in full frazzled action. It will probably be a nice quiet event with not too many, but certainly very loud, cars and well-behaved drivers where the billy club won't need to be raised .
Aaron Bitterman
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Michaelson [mailto:ca993twin@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 11:49 PM
To: aaron@speedventures.net
Subject: Thoughts about BW event: a Rennlist perspective
Aaron,
It was a pleasure to meet you and the Speed Ventures crew. The Rennlist Porsche gang had a good time, but in the interest of "continuous improvement", I'd liked to forward a few thoughts.
It seemed as though the event was over subscribed, and the Speed Ventures crew did little to try to redistribute the run groups so that there was a more even and equitable distribution of cars in the run groups.
There were some very obvious cases where very slow cars were in fast run groups. Do these guys have ego issues? SV should be on top of ensuring that the lap times are appropriate for the run groups. There were also a few cases where very fast times were recorded in slow groups. Everyone is best served when everyone is grouped appropriately. This cannot be self-policed... SV should look after it.
There were way too many "incidents", crashes, spins, illegal passing, and ignorining flags. SV has an obligation to get this behavior under control. The individuals should be spoken to after any infraction or spin. The second lecture should be the last. Send them home. A five minute lecture by a very pretty girl is not sufficient punishment. Theer should have been some after-incident drivers meetings where the behavior is discussed and where it is explained that it is not tolerated.
Running an event is a difficult, tough job, and I'm sure you don't like the role of "policeman". But you really have an obligation to keep the event safe and keep the drivers under control.
I hope you take these comments as constructive, and take some steps for future events. I had a great time at BW, and appreciate all the work that goes into running an event. Again, I thank you for your consideration to the Rennlisters.
Steve Michaelson
Aaron Bitterman Speed <aaron@speedventures.net> wrote:
Hi Steve,
I agree with your points and appreciate the feedback. I am aware of the problems you've raised and was frustrated by them all weekend.
We're not accustomed to having such a large turnout - last weekend was the biggest event we've ever had by 50 cars (over the course of the weekend) and, compared to a typical event, we had 3x the signups (180 instead of 60). Usually we have about 50-60 drivers per day, 3 run groups and about 20 cars per group average. Our goal was to have 25 cars per run group average (100 cars total per day) and 4 run groups, which is an acceptable number for a 3 mile track. But, this necessarily leads to crowded middle groups. Nobody wants to run in the "yellow" group because there are very slow novices there, so that yellow group ends up having too few cars. The advanced "red" group is also undersubscribed because we, naturally, want only very experienced drivers in that group and were moving people out of RED periodically throughout the weeekend.
On Sunday, after the first white session, we moved 12-15 people around, taking the fastest times and moving them to blue and the slowest down to yellow. So, we did make some attempt, though perhaps not enough. After moving people around, I did receive positive feedback from those in the white group that it was now at acceptable levels, at about 28 cars. By "acceptable", I mean compared to many other open lapping organizations, not necessarily for my taste.
Generally speaking, our method of simply signing up 100 people for a 4-run group event did not work. My guess is that we turned off a lot of people and lost potential repeat Speed Ventures customers.
Going forward, we will implement a system in which we sign people up for specific run groups, rather than the event as a whole. We will be able to make sure that the intermediate group(s) are not oversubscribed, cutting off signups based on run groups, rather than overall count. Additionally, I will start to forcibly move people in and out of groups based on their behavior/performance on track, something we've never really HAD to do systematically. Certainly we've done it, and did do it a lot last weekend, but in a rather casual way. We will now implement a system where the run groups are more carefully groomed.
During the weekend, we did do some policeing as well, but not nearly enough. The problem is that a system needs to be put in place for doing this, something we haven't had to to before because it's been easy for us to pay attention to what's happening on track. Going forward I am going to have the starter/marshall record off-track excursions, those who ignore black flags, unsafe/illegal passes, and other issues by car/driver. This will allow me, personally, (rather than Rosemary) to have more definitive discussions with people and kick them off track if they ignore our directions a second time. I generally leave it up to the corner workers and they generally do a fine job and inform me of drivers' behavior. Last weekend, their discretion was not enough and nobody was keeping track of who was doing what *how many times*. It's just a matter of easily implementing a system where I, personally, don't have to be watching the track from the tower the entire time - something I cannot do.
Truthfully, I don't mind being a policeman and I have no problem kicking people out of events if they ignore instructions a second time. We've done it many times before when people did so after either John or I personally told them to stop. Obviously we need to work with the corner workers more than we are to get the same job done.
So, I have little else to say in our defense, your honor. But we're working on our offense, so things will improve. If there's a post event discussion about these topics, or any other, that you'd like me to participate in, let me know.
Thanks for your help organizing the Rennlisters. If you personally would like drive at another event in the future, compliments of Speed Ventures, to conduct an inspection of our operational changes
, we'd like to have you. Maybe you'll feel comfortable recommending us to your crew again afterwards. Unfortunately, I can't guarantee we'll have 180 signups, so you probably won't get to see us in full frazzled action. It will probably be a nice quiet event with not too many, but certainly very loud, cars and well-behaved drivers where the billy club won't need to be raised .Aaron Bitterman
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Michaelson [mailto:ca993twin@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 11:49 PM
To: aaron@speedventures.net
Subject: Thoughts about BW event: a Rennlist perspective
Aaron,
It was a pleasure to meet you and the Speed Ventures crew. The Rennlist Porsche gang had a good time, but in the interest of "continuous improvement", I'd liked to forward a few thoughts.
It seemed as though the event was over subscribed, and the Speed Ventures crew did little to try to redistribute the run groups so that there was a more even and equitable distribution of cars in the run groups.
There were some very obvious cases where very slow cars were in fast run groups. Do these guys have ego issues? SV should be on top of ensuring that the lap times are appropriate for the run groups. There were also a few cases where very fast times were recorded in slow groups. Everyone is best served when everyone is grouped appropriately. This cannot be self-policed... SV should look after it.
There were way too many "incidents", crashes, spins, illegal passing, and ignorining flags. SV has an obligation to get this behavior under control. The individuals should be spoken to after any infraction or spin. The second lecture should be the last. Send them home. A five minute lecture by a very pretty girl is not sufficient punishment. Theer should have been some after-incident drivers meetings where the behavior is discussed and where it is explained that it is not tolerated.
Running an event is a difficult, tough job, and I'm sure you don't like the role of "policeman". But you really have an obligation to keep the event safe and keep the drivers under control.
I hope you take these comments as constructive, and take some steps for future events. I had a great time at BW, and appreciate all the work that goes into running an event. Again, I thank you for your consideration to the Rennlisters.
Steve Michaelson
10-04-2004, 08:53 PM
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I want to thank everyone for coming out and want to apologize for the crowding issues and the lack of enforcement of our club rules last weekend.
As a driver I would rather run one session on an open track than 5 on a crowded track. We have long recognized this preference by drivers and have delivered accordingly over the years. Because of our experience last weekend we will have people sign up by run group from now on, thereby selling out run groups rather than selling out based on overall car count, as I said in the email to Steve above. Of course we've only sold out once or twice before, which is why we've been able to "deliver accordingly", so perhaps this is wishful thinking. But at least we'll be prepared.
Two years ago we "sold out" at Buttonwillow. We decided that 10 cars per mile was a decent formula, meaning 30 cars at Buttonwillow. At that event we cut off signups at 90 cars and had 30 per group. I didn't like driving at that event. Over the years we've decreased this number, which is why 25 cars/session was the number settled on for Buttonwillow. If we had done things properly last weekend, our groups would have ended up with 20 in RED, 25 in Blue, 25 in White, and 18 in Yellow = 88 cars, instead of 100. Instead, we had 20 in Red, 22 in Blue, 40 in White, and 18 in Yellow to start the day on Sunday. Then, the counts shifted to around 30 in Blue and 30 in White, which is still more cars than we targeted per run group after balancing things out. So, we screwed up.
Safety wise we're implementing an infraction log going forward so we can systematically keep track of, and discipline/boot, drivers. I know I seem like an incredibly nice guy, but really I'm a total a-hole hardass jerk.
My apologies again. I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to redeem myself at a future event, so for all of you Rennlisters that attended last weekend, I'll give you half price at any future SV event in case you should decide to give us another chance.
take care and drive safe,
Aaron Bitterman
aaron@speedventures.net
As a driver I would rather run one session on an open track than 5 on a crowded track. We have long recognized this preference by drivers and have delivered accordingly over the years. Because of our experience last weekend we will have people sign up by run group from now on, thereby selling out run groups rather than selling out based on overall car count, as I said in the email to Steve above. Of course we've only sold out once or twice before, which is why we've been able to "deliver accordingly", so perhaps this is wishful thinking. But at least we'll be prepared.
Two years ago we "sold out" at Buttonwillow. We decided that 10 cars per mile was a decent formula, meaning 30 cars at Buttonwillow. At that event we cut off signups at 90 cars and had 30 per group. I didn't like driving at that event. Over the years we've decreased this number, which is why 25 cars/session was the number settled on for Buttonwillow. If we had done things properly last weekend, our groups would have ended up with 20 in RED, 25 in Blue, 25 in White, and 18 in Yellow = 88 cars, instead of 100. Instead, we had 20 in Red, 22 in Blue, 40 in White, and 18 in Yellow to start the day on Sunday. Then, the counts shifted to around 30 in Blue and 30 in White, which is still more cars than we targeted per run group after balancing things out. So, we screwed up.
Safety wise we're implementing an infraction log going forward so we can systematically keep track of, and discipline/boot, drivers. I know I seem like an incredibly nice guy, but really I'm a total a-hole hardass jerk.
My apologies again. I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to redeem myself at a future event, so for all of you Rennlisters that attended last weekend, I'll give you half price at any future SV event in case you should decide to give us another chance.
take care and drive safe,
Aaron Bitterman
aaron@speedventures.net
10-04-2004, 09:35 PM
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In Aarons defense I was going to pull my wife OFF the track after the yellow 2 practice Sun. I noticed he was talking to various people who participated in that run. It was red flagged to end all. A guy in the yellow group should not be in the wall. But I decided to let Merritt go based on Bob Brooks instruction and the 3rd Yellow group was much better. And she emerged with a smile. When I went to turn in my Transponder Aaron looked very frazzled and when I said thanks and goodbye he did manage a crumpled
"goodbyehefmphh" and a weak wave. I am amazed he was able to type today.
"goodbyehefmphh" and a weak wave. I am amazed he was able to type today.
10-04-2004, 10:33 PM
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well, you live and learn, a business is the same way... this event has made speed venture stronger, i geuss... a fewe lost customers, but with the new rules, you might gain many more then lost... I'll take you up on that half off price soon!
~Eyal
~Eyal
10-04-2004, 10:33 PM
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Aaron,
Thanks for your responses to us and Steve. I was present for all 3 days and saw things get a bit more ragged each day (Friday went well, Saturday ok, but Sunday was too chaotic for my taste). You have partially addressed some of my concerns in the implementation of an infraction log.
I'm comfortable with open passing, but get a bit upset to see some bozo trying to dive bomb me and pass in the bus stop without a point by in a group where the stated rules mandate a point (blue group). I would expect this sort of behavior to generate a black flag. Would this sort of behavior be reported by the corner workers and noted in the infraction log?
This raises the issue of the number of corner workers for such large groups. Given the amount of cars at the event, I expected more corner stations to be manned. Do you expect any changes in this area?
I have an additional suggestion/question. In other groups I've driven with, a 4-wheel off is an automatic black flag and discussion with the track stewart. Not necessarily to get yelled at, but to assure that the driver knew what they did wrong that resulted in the off. (Repeated 2-wheel offs might also generate a black flag.) Two offs resulted in a required "break" (1 session cool down before being allowed back out). Do you anticipate anything of this nature?
Thanks for your responses to us and Steve. I was present for all 3 days and saw things get a bit more ragged each day (Friday went well, Saturday ok, but Sunday was too chaotic for my taste). You have partially addressed some of my concerns in the implementation of an infraction log.
I'm comfortable with open passing, but get a bit upset to see some bozo trying to dive bomb me and pass in the bus stop without a point by in a group where the stated rules mandate a point (blue group). I would expect this sort of behavior to generate a black flag. Would this sort of behavior be reported by the corner workers and noted in the infraction log?
This raises the issue of the number of corner workers for such large groups. Given the amount of cars at the event, I expected more corner stations to be manned. Do you expect any changes in this area?
I have an additional suggestion/question. In other groups I've driven with, a 4-wheel off is an automatic black flag and discussion with the track stewart. Not necessarily to get yelled at, but to assure that the driver knew what they did wrong that resulted in the off. (Repeated 2-wheel offs might also generate a black flag.) Two offs resulted in a required "break" (1 session cool down before being allowed back out). Do you anticipate anything of this nature?
10-04-2004, 11:38 PM
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This is exactly the sort of positive criticisms that I hoped this thread would generate. I'm glad to see no flames. I feel that Aaron is the sort who will listen to ideas, measure them, and implement those that he is comfortable with.
I was surprised that more drivers didn't inderstand the meaning of a red flag. I know those flags are rare, but they are so critical that their meaning and proper response needs to be emphasized. Thanks again Aaron.
I was surprised that more drivers didn't inderstand the meaning of a red flag. I know those flags are rare, but they are so critical that their meaning and proper response needs to be emphasized. Thanks again Aaron.
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10-04-2004, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ca993twin
This is exactly the sort of positive criticisms that I hoped this thread would generate. I'm glad to see no flames. I feel that Aaron is the sort who will listen to ideas, measure them, and implement those that he is comfortable with.
I was surprised that more drivers didn't inderstand the meaning of a red flag. I know those flags are rare, but they are so critical that their meaning and proper response needs to be emphasized. Thanks again Aaron.
I was surprised that more drivers didn't inderstand the meaning of a red flag. I know those flags are rare, but they are so critical that their meaning and proper response needs to be emphasized. Thanks again Aaron.
~Eyal
10-07-2004, 05:50 PM
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Two things I don't think got sufficiently covered above:
1) There were almost no blue flags shown at all. The number of cars wouldn't have been much of an issue if people would let other cars by as soon as they get behind them. I'm used to running in PCA events where I'd get a point-by within 1-2 turns of getting up behind a car, which is the way it should be. My average wait time in blue group was about 1 lap, with sometimes it taking 2 laps for a car to get the hint and give me a point by. On Sunday I ran in red where the situation was much better.
2) The Evo's and WRX's were hooking both Saturday and Sunday and dragging dirt onto the track, irrespective of the warnings. I witnessed this both on the track sidelines as well as following some of them. I've run at Buttonwillow with PCA and the track stays perfectly clean. This last weekend every apex was covered in dirt. I was fortunate not to get windshield damage despite a half dozen times where my cars got pelted by rocks. There needs to be a hard and fast rule that anyone who clips apexes at that track gets an immediate black flag, which if ignored causes that person's times to be DQ'd for the session, and more sever penalties if it continues. This was a very intentional practice by the drivers of those cars, and ruins the track for everyone else.
Already covered was the number of offs, but my own experiences this last weekend provide a good illustration of how out-of-control some of the sessions were. I had two S2000's go off at various points, both of them being big offs, right in front of me, in both cases someone who wouldn't let me by and was trying to overdrive the car to avoid having to let me by and then loosing it. While instructing, on Saturday a Miata exited Nascar/Riverside at 70+ mph in a big off and then on Sunday the charcoal WRX went into the wall again in front of my student. There were countless minor offs and spins in addition to this. In an entire year of driving with PCA I can recall less than a handful of times I've been in close proximity to a car that has had a spin or off, in every case very minor.
1) There were almost no blue flags shown at all. The number of cars wouldn't have been much of an issue if people would let other cars by as soon as they get behind them. I'm used to running in PCA events where I'd get a point-by within 1-2 turns of getting up behind a car, which is the way it should be. My average wait time in blue group was about 1 lap, with sometimes it taking 2 laps for a car to get the hint and give me a point by. On Sunday I ran in red where the situation was much better.
2) The Evo's and WRX's were hooking both Saturday and Sunday and dragging dirt onto the track, irrespective of the warnings. I witnessed this both on the track sidelines as well as following some of them. I've run at Buttonwillow with PCA and the track stays perfectly clean. This last weekend every apex was covered in dirt. I was fortunate not to get windshield damage despite a half dozen times where my cars got pelted by rocks. There needs to be a hard and fast rule that anyone who clips apexes at that track gets an immediate black flag, which if ignored causes that person's times to be DQ'd for the session, and more sever penalties if it continues. This was a very intentional practice by the drivers of those cars, and ruins the track for everyone else.
Already covered was the number of offs, but my own experiences this last weekend provide a good illustration of how out-of-control some of the sessions were. I had two S2000's go off at various points, both of them being big offs, right in front of me, in both cases someone who wouldn't let me by and was trying to overdrive the car to avoid having to let me by and then loosing it. While instructing, on Saturday a Miata exited Nascar/Riverside at 70+ mph in a big off and then on Sunday the charcoal WRX went into the wall again in front of my student. There were countless minor offs and spins in addition to this. In an entire year of driving with PCA I can recall less than a handful of times I've been in close proximity to a car that has had a spin or off, in every case very minor.
10-07-2004, 06:04 PM
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Too Late.
Hey, karen's a shrink, maybe she can get me on some anti-anxiety med like Ocinaplon
or something.
Funny thing is, once I get out there, I forget about it.
Hey, karen's a shrink, maybe she can get me on some anti-anxiety med like Ocinaplon
or something.
Funny thing is, once I get out there, I forget about it.
10-07-2004, 06:08 PM
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Scott the only reason I pick on you is becasue I go through the same exact thing in MX racing or bike racing, go figure. I know once you get going its gone! so how can we convince ourselves we are just wasting energy??!!
10-07-2004, 06:09 PM
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Hey, I thought the guy was a gonner too. I looked back and considering the size of the dust cloud expected to see a Miata all balled-up. Thankfully it was still on all four wheels, albeit a quarter mile off the track.
10-07-2004, 06:23 PM
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Cars spinning??
Rocks and debris on the track??
I don't know what you guys are talking about !!??
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/sweerper1.jpg
max
Rocks and debris on the track??
I don't know what you guys are talking about !!??
http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/sweerper1.jpg
max