Racing. WHAT do you do??
06-18-2004, 12:21 PM
#61
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Mooty,
I am confident that the frontrunner locally (Tim Comeau) has less than $12k in his car (924S). I can confirm this though. He has done most of the work himself and watchs his expenses very carefully. His mods are less extensive than many of the other cars out there. He is a very talented driver and a huge advocate of the series as he is the one that has really been the driving force to get this series in NASA. You should check out the NASA forum (944 SPEC) and can ask questions.
By the way, there are two for sale right now that I know of. I only have $10k in my car which includes some more expensive repairs to get it up and running (I am not on the podium though...yet
... ) Both are asking $12k for their proven cars (podium finishers):
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2263
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1675:
I am confident that the frontrunner locally (Tim Comeau) has less than $12k in his car (924S). I can confirm this though. He has done most of the work himself and watchs his expenses very carefully. His mods are less extensive than many of the other cars out there. He is a very talented driver and a huge advocate of the series as he is the one that has really been the driving force to get this series in NASA. You should check out the NASA forum (944 SPEC) and can ask questions.
By the way, there are two for sale right now that I know of. I only have $10k in my car which includes some more expensive repairs to get it up and running (I am not on the podium though...yet
... ) Both are asking $12k for their proven cars (podium finishers):http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2263
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1675:
06-18-2004, 12:53 PM
#62
Three Wheelin'
I will jump in on the side of the 944 for racing.
As many of you know I ran my cab on the track for the past 4 years, now the cab is not the best platform for the last 10th on the track as it just flexes too much. After throwing 10's of thousands at that car, it still was not going to be a race car. I bought a 944 S2 this winter to race in F class for a couple of reasons
1.Less expensive, if by some chance it got balled up, I can take all the race parts off, put them on a 4000.00 donor car and I am back in the game, no way to do that with a 993/964.
2.Wanted to run with my friends (Big Turtle, Mike in Chi) There is a ton of cars in E/F. Many times last year there would be 4 or 5 cars to run with in C, even less in D (stock 993 class) E/F have 15-25 cars to run against.
3.The 944 is a easy car to drive, dont have to worry about the rear end trying to pass the front!
While I miss the 993, the 944 S2 is almost as quick as my old car, first time out, I was within 1.5 secs of my 993 lap times (slow technical track) For me the goal is not to go 160mph, just to be faster than the guy behind me and the guy I am trying to pass. If that happens at 120mph and not 135mph(993) no big deal it is still a blast! (see mark in balt. club race post, it is still like that for me everytime I strap in!)
Racing is expensive no matter what car you have, 944/914/993. Just the cost to get in the event (hotel,gas,entrance fees etc.) will run around a grand per weekend. Tires, things that break and you are up another 1K.
First year operating expense will be 50% more than what you planned on even with a set up race car. If your like me, you will want to change the seat, maybe the steering wheel, big mirrors,etc.
I got into my new car for around 24K, spent another 5K to get it the way I like it+ saftey items like HANS. My advice for OldGuy, buy a inexpensive car, learn the craft, take your time doing the upgrades you need to go faster,handle better and have fun!
As many of you know I ran my cab on the track for the past 4 years, now the cab is not the best platform for the last 10th on the track as it just flexes too much. After throwing 10's of thousands at that car, it still was not going to be a race car. I bought a 944 S2 this winter to race in F class for a couple of reasons
1.Less expensive, if by some chance it got balled up, I can take all the race parts off, put them on a 4000.00 donor car and I am back in the game, no way to do that with a 993/964.
2.Wanted to run with my friends (Big Turtle, Mike in Chi) There is a ton of cars in E/F. Many times last year there would be 4 or 5 cars to run with in C, even less in D (stock 993 class) E/F have 15-25 cars to run against.
3.The 944 is a easy car to drive, dont have to worry about the rear end trying to pass the front!
While I miss the 993, the 944 S2 is almost as quick as my old car, first time out, I was within 1.5 secs of my 993 lap times (slow technical track) For me the goal is not to go 160mph, just to be faster than the guy behind me and the guy I am trying to pass. If that happens at 120mph and not 135mph(993) no big deal it is still a blast! (see mark in balt. club race post, it is still like that for me everytime I strap in!)
Racing is expensive no matter what car you have, 944/914/993. Just the cost to get in the event (hotel,gas,entrance fees etc.) will run around a grand per weekend. Tires, things that break and you are up another 1K.
First year operating expense will be 50% more than what you planned on even with a set up race car. If your like me, you will want to change the seat, maybe the steering wheel, big mirrors,etc.
I got into my new car for around 24K, spent another 5K to get it the way I like it+ saftey items like HANS. My advice for OldGuy, buy a inexpensive car, learn the craft, take your time doing the upgrades you need to go faster,handle better and have fun!
06-18-2004, 01:26 PM
#63
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Originally posted by Bryan H
From one with a fair amount of experience here, the one avenue you did not mention in your summary is a G or F class 911. More expensive to buy than a 944 but much more reliable and thus less expensive to operate. Less expensive than a 964 and more reliable. Loads of folks to race with. Do the DE's first and you will figure out what is right for you.
Bryan
From one with a fair amount of experience here, the one avenue you did not mention in your summary is a G or F class 911. More expensive to buy than a 944 but much more reliable and thus less expensive to operate. Less expensive than a 964 and more reliable. Loads of folks to race with. Do the DE's first and you will figure out what is right for you.
Bryan
Edward
Last edited by Edward; 06-18-2004 at 03:51 PM.
06-18-2004, 01:46 PM
#64
Three Wheelin'
Hey Edward,
I dont have anything to compare yet, the 993 was solid as a track car, only money spend was on upgrades. I think you can blow more money on go fast parts on the 911's vs the 944 NA's A top/bottom end rebuild is going to cost about the same for a 911 or 944. I think a 944 Turbo may be more expensive to maintian because there are more parts to go bad/more complex.
I watched a buddy with a early 911 pull his hair out last year fixing his race car, everything was breaking every weekend.
I dont have anything to compare yet, the 993 was solid as a track car, only money spend was on upgrades. I think you can blow more money on go fast parts on the 911's vs the 944 NA's A top/bottom end rebuild is going to cost about the same for a 911 or 944. I think a 944 Turbo may be more expensive to maintian because there are more parts to go bad/more complex.
I watched a buddy with a early 911 pull his hair out last year fixing his race car, everything was breaking every weekend.
06-18-2004, 02:10 PM
#65
Track Day
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Yes My Wife named my car the Money Pit. Since she is the major sponsor, that's her perogative.
944 guys are forever fixing engines and other expensive parts. Can you say #2 rod bearing every year.
A G or F class 911 would be 77 up to an 88. It could be older depending on the car and mods like an early S.
If you are looking for a race car, the cheapest way by far to do it right is to buy a fully sorted car from a knowledgable honest racer. I know of a G class 83 SC for sale that is pretty good with enclosed trailer generator etc for $30K. You can't buy a car and have it built for that. I put 3 suspensions on my car before I finall got it right trying to save money.
A 911 like the SC mentioned will run 5 years without opening the motor. Of course when you do hold you breath it might hurt.
Bryan
944 guys are forever fixing engines and other expensive parts. Can you say #2 rod bearing every year.
A G or F class 911 would be 77 up to an 88. It could be older depending on the car and mods like an early S.
If you are looking for a race car, the cheapest way by far to do it right is to buy a fully sorted car from a knowledgable honest racer. I know of a G class 83 SC for sale that is pretty good with enclosed trailer generator etc for $30K. You can't buy a car and have it built for that. I put 3 suspensions on my car before I finall got it right trying to save money.
A 911 like the SC mentioned will run 5 years without opening the motor. Of course when you do hold you breath it might hurt.
Bryan
06-18-2004, 03:29 PM
#66
Burning Brakes
944 Turbo !
OG - When I purchased my 993 last year my initial thought was to sell the 951 but the thought of wrecking the 993 got me rethinking that idea after some seriously slow deliberation.
I have been pretty slow about doing any work on the 951 - heck I dont think I've even driven the car 500 miles since I bought the car 3 years ago (extenuating cirmcumstances - new house hunting / getting married / helping parents relocate to 2 new homes in NJ and FL, yadda yadda yadda - I am truly a HWFM procrastinator).
My 951 is finally in the shop getting new TB/WP/rollers, turbo cooling pump, ball joints, brake rotors/pads and anything that the PO let slide over the past 10 years. I can't wait to get it on the road and someday on the track. As a total novice to the DE thing - my thought was I would be safer with the more 50/50 handling of the 951 vs 993.
OG - like you I've also put some mods into my 993 PSS9s, TRGs, 18in Hollowspokes, Michelin Pilots into the 993 which should improve its driveablity and will allow me to track the car, someday, after I acquire better skills at a few DEs with the 951.
As far as modding the 951 - its pretty much stock right now but not for long - there's a lot that can be done with these cars, depending on your budget!
I have been pretty slow about doing any work on the 951 - heck I dont think I've even driven the car 500 miles since I bought the car 3 years ago (extenuating cirmcumstances - new house hunting / getting married / helping parents relocate to 2 new homes in NJ and FL, yadda yadda yadda - I am truly a HWFM procrastinator).
My 951 is finally in the shop getting new TB/WP/rollers, turbo cooling pump, ball joints, brake rotors/pads and anything that the PO let slide over the past 10 years. I can't wait to get it on the road and someday on the track. As a total novice to the DE thing - my thought was I would be safer with the more 50/50 handling of the 951 vs 993.
OG - like you I've also put some mods into my 993 PSS9s, TRGs, 18in Hollowspokes, Michelin Pilots into the 993 which should improve its driveablity and will allow me to track the car, someday, after I acquire better skills at a few DEs with the 951.
As far as modding the 951 - its pretty much stock right now but not for long - there's a lot that can be done with these cars, depending on your budget!
06-18-2004, 06:41 PM
#68
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Were you using Perrier as a coolant?
Thank you for diagnosing my problem. I shoulda used that French coolant
The rod bearing can be an issue. There are some (fingers crossed) preventative measures that can be taken. If something bad should happen though (crossed fingers didn't work), folks are just buying a used engine, freshen it up with new rod bearings and dropping it in for very few dollars. Used motors don't cost mush with these little cars. There are more and less expensive ways to repair these cars. Go to a high $$ mechanic and rebuild with all new parts (still not proven to work much better than a freshened used motor) or the used route. They may not be as reliable as a strong 911, but repairs don't have to cost an arm and leg. For example, I had new clutch and shorter Porsche OEM 5th gear put in for <$1500 with both parts and labor
I agree that I am having as much fun (more actually, as I am not as worried about the car) driving 120 rather than the 135.
06-18-2004, 07:09 PM
#69
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I replaced the bearing before I started racing the car. did the oil sump baffle too.
Then managed to blow a headgasket, but I'm 99.985% sure that was my fault, not the cars engineering.
Steve
It is much safer with a 951 than a 993. The 951 is very forgiving. and I committed a multitude of sins when I learned on one. That said, the 993 is relatively easy to drive fast
Then managed to blow a headgasket, but I'm 99.985% sure that was my fault, not the cars engineering.
Steve
It is much safer with a 951 than a 993. The 951 is very forgiving. and I committed a multitude of sins when I learned on one. That said, the 993 is relatively easy to drive fast
06-18-2004, 07:22 PM
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By the way Mike,
Do you have any more HWFMR stickers? I would gladly pay the sponser to mount it on my steed. I would do the team proud, as I drive a slow car slowly. I am the backmarker of the backmarkers. The only thing that I need to add to my resume is to spin this car (did many a time in the 993), but I am not sure if I am going fast enough to spin though
I have put a couple of tires off as I missed the apex (early)...if I had spun, I might have hit the apex then
Do you have any more HWFMR stickers? I would gladly pay the sponser to mount it on my steed. I would do the team proud, as I drive a slow car slowly. I am the backmarker of the backmarkers. The only thing that I need to add to my resume is to spin this car (did many a time in the 993), but I am not sure if I am going fast enough to spin though
I have put a couple of tires off as I missed the apex (early)...if I had spun, I might have hit the apex then
06-18-2004, 07:30 PM
#71
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David, the original run of stickers is gone.
I have some of Tom W's removable stickers for inside window or exterior application.
they are $7.50 each.
I am also looking into commemorative LM sponsor stickers as a freebie possibility for contributors. Will know next week about those.
They would be similar to this, but without the parking reference and the word "welcome": (second line would read "Le Mans Sponsors - 2004", and 2004 would be removed from third line)
I have some of Tom W's removable stickers for inside window or exterior application.
they are $7.50 each.
I am also looking into commemorative LM sponsor stickers as a freebie possibility for contributors. Will know next week about those.
They would be similar to this, but without the parking reference and the word "welcome": (second line would read "Le Mans Sponsors - 2004", and 2004 would be removed from third line)
06-28-2004, 02:44 AM
#73
I am jumoing in a little late on this one, but I agree with everything that David has said about the 944 spec class. You CAN be very competitive and even drive the car to the track if you are in the spec class. It's not about outspending the next guy and most of us are into it for 12k OR less! I am in for a little more, but that is because of paint and graphics ( I have to justify the tax write off)
I have had various driving experiences with 911's and admit I was a little biased towards the 944's. If you are trying to decide between miatas and 944's just go to the track and look at the comraderie of the guys in the 944 class.
PM me if you have any ?'s
I have had various driving experiences with 911's and admit I was a little biased towards the 944's. If you are trying to decide between miatas and 944's just go to the track and look at the comraderie of the guys in the 944 class.
PM me if you have any ?'s
06-28-2004, 04:10 AM
#74
Burning Brakes
David and 88clbsport- I'm very very close to starting my spec 944 and am aware of the start up cost but what is your guys typical season costing you? Any advice you could give a rookie? Should I build up my current car or buy one that is "pre-built"?
Thanks in advance fellas and I hope to see you out there soon.
Thanks in advance fellas and I hope to see you out there soon.