rk-d

So I'm making my list. I'm anticipating changing my clutch. Will likely go LWF/RS. Given that it's a C4S, the engine will drop. I've made my list, which is pretty extensive.

Question is - should I change out the lifters? I hear some ticking, but it's not terribly loud. That said....

This is the list so far. I've read the archives and I know this has been discussed before, but it wasn't entirely clear on doing the valve lifters.

'98 with 44k miles

1. Distributor caps, rotors and drive belt
2. Spark plug wires
3. Fuel filter replacement
4. Fuel line replacement
5. Secondary air injection check valve
6. valve cover gaskets
7. timing chain gasket
8. p/s; a/c; inner/outer alternator drive belts
9. hood pad replacement
10. ?Lifter cartridges?
11. Oil pressure sending unit
12. Idle stabilization control valve replacement
13. Inspect hoses, vacuum lines for replacement as needed

Ivan J

I would not replace the lifters unless one or more of them have failed. Many have gone well beyond 100k miles on the original lifters without problems. If needed, they can be replaced in the future without dropping the engine.

The same can be said of the ISV.

rk-d

Good to know. I don't think it's failed. I hear ticking in the driver wheel well, but not clacking. Of course, I've never heard what a failed lifter in a 993 sounds like.

ISV was more in the interest of tightening up the idle for the LWF. Of course I can get them to clean it out. Tried to do this myself, but the back screw is oriented in a way that makes it unreachable.

Another thought were new motor mounts. But the exhaust doesn't appear to be drooping, so this would be more performance than anything.

pp000830

"Given that it's a C4S, the engine will drop" a false assumption of this being necessary.
Lots of tasty billable labor hours to do it though.
The Idle stabilization control valve almost never needs replacement, just a cleaning.
Lifters in my case did fine till almost 90K miles. The lifters really aren't what fails, it's the oil seals on them distort, slip off and the oil leaks out making nasty noises at startup.
Make sure you are not simply throwing money at your car because you can, it's not like buying jewelry for your date that pays forward.
Andy

rk-d

Yeah, I've read mixed things on the C4/S needing engine drop - I know the C2 can be done without it and I'm sure some shops with experience could pull it off with a C4S - just none near me.

chsu74

People drop the gearbox instead for clutch and flywheel job.

pp000830

If they truly can't do it I would be concerned about their competence. Mostly it is just a good billable item on a quote that shops are reluctant to remove making the job less profitable.
You are in charge and can insist, it's your car and you are paying for the work. Remember the shop is negotiating with you whenever the service advisor is opening his mouth and it doesn't end until he swipes your payment card.
Nuff said,
Andy

goofballdeluxe

Yeah, that mindset might work in fantasyland, and if one does all their own work on a car, they can dictate anything.

Thing is, for every shop I've dealt with, they will only do most of this work on a C4/C4S with the engine dropped. So even if it IS possible, if every shop in town says nope, we gotta drop the engine, then really it's NOT possible to do the work with the engine in, if you don't know how do it yourself.

I've found that there are 2 people who you don't wanna get into a hissy fit with and come across like a know-it-all-dick: a waiter who's gonna bring you the food you're about to eat, and a mechanic that you're gonna trust to do a good job on your car. Otherwise you end up with spit in your dinner (or far worse) or a piece of stray metal where you'd never want it in your engine.

Open your wallet or learn to do it yourself

rk-d

I really think it's a regional thing. I think if I lived in SoCal, or any large metro area, this would be something I could push. I've resigned myself to the cost of maintenance being higher on this car across the board. Cost of living is exponentially cheaper down here for everything else, so I'm ok with it. When you literally have 1 or 2 viable options for an air-cooled mechanic, it's tough.

The mechanic is letting me bring in my own parts which is a pretty decent cost savings. I figure, if I have no options but to drop the engine, at least I can be productive with it.

Of course, I'm sure I could drive 5 hours to ATL and possibly find someone to do this without a drop -- but frankly my time is more valuable than the potential cost savings. And I'm not going to pretend I have the skillset to do major stuff like this. I do DIY, but I know my limitations. It is what it is.

pp000830

When negotiating work there is no need to be in your face simply ask for a quote that lists the work broken down by labor hours and rate for each aspect of the job and the parts associated with that aspect. Then one can have a rational discussion with the service guy on each element of the quote. The discussion as to engine out just becomes a discussion of an aspect of the quote. Not an in-your-face activity. In my case, I was once quoted for an engine-out job where, at the time, I didn't even know the option for leaving the engine in was available. At a progress visit, I observed my transmission on a table and the engine still in the car so my view is anything is possible and so working from a quote is key. Just because you have resigned yourself to using a particular mechanic doesn't mean they have to have this impression. You are speaking about $5000+ in work here, a good healthy job for any auto service so you have a good bit of leverage on job cost, whether it be how the job is done or labor rate. Why give it away? I live in Richmond VA, the old South, where social norms when dealing with commercial issues is very polite, polite doesn't mean not negotiating value.

goofballdeluxe

Remind me not to have dinner with you when you're asking the waiter of a breakdown of each menu item LOL

Suffice to say, leverage or not, I've never had any shop want to keep the engine in on a C4/C4S. For whatever reason. Bottom line is, it rarely goes over well when the novice who can't do the work himself suggests to the expert, who is the expert because he knows how to do the work, how to run his business and what it should cost, etc. A pain in the *** customer rarely looks polite. You're better off just trying to find a shop that will, but almost the reputable shops here in SoCal wanna drop it. For some, it's worth the extra cost if the mechanic is great and you don't wanna spend all day trying to find a shop that will do the work without dropping the engine.

If one really wants leverage, the best thing is to learn how to do it all yourself

ed devinney

I did most everything on your list, and some more, but I dropped the engine myself and did the WYIT because it was a lot easier than doing the inevitable work with the engine in the car. Unless your mechanic can quote a large savings from WYIT work over the same jobs when needed, all that easyness just makes him $.

If the engine's definitely coming out the sound pad, SAI, and fuel filter make sense to do now. Ask if you can clean up the ISV yourself (5 minutes and some Berrymans B12), and make sure the clamps get replaced the right way. The ignition stuff might be marginally cheaper now, since the wires are a PITA to run, but worth it only if they're needed. Same for valve and timing covers.

Drive belts are easy to get to, so zero benefit for engine-out. PS belt is a big, hefty thing, and probably won't need replacement before your next clutch. Likely not even then. Lifters probably the same, and can be done without a drop. Engine mounts are a DIY with the engine in the car.

rk-d

Good thoughts. I'll scratch distributor off the list. I'm thinking ignition wires should be much cheaper to replace with engine out, but I may be wrong. It would be nice to knock off $500 in parts alone. I'll probably scratch that too.

Fuel lines seem like cheap insurance at 20+ years.

Still on the fence about the lifters. I hear ticking, but it's not clacking away like a diesel.

I'm scratching the oil sender unit as well.

I'll probably change the gaskets for peace of mind.

onefstm

I vote for the lifters. Lifters combined with new ignition wires, plugs, and distributors made my car fantastic.