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Project Limoncella - Restoring 993 into a CUP/RSR 1:1 tribute
Good morning Rennlisters and Merry Christmas from Tuscany, I recently bought a yellow car, that has flown into a river and remained there for 4 and half years: the car was full of mud, silt and clay and everything you can imagine carried into a swollen river, that passes through a city with many chemical and industrial buildings. At first I decided to buy it just to have the chance of taking the transmission unit, a G50.21.02, since the car is a row 993 carrera m.y. 95 with LSD - code 220 - detail I got from the chassis number: in my mind there was the idea of installing that unit onto my other 993, a row m.y. 96, with g50.20.02, long gearbox ratios. In order to transport the car it has been necessary to take out approximately 1100 kg of mud from the car, which thing I did by myself during a very long, and as dry and sunny as a spaghetti western scene, summer day of July. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...adcd730d70.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ef88bedc67.jpg The car was literally fulfilled of mud, debris, pieces of plastic, small wood piece: I also found some tenants, such as still living shells and freshwater shrimps. A-MA-ZING (I leave the smell while removing that stuff being inside that “stuff” to your imagination) https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...42c8d139be.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1b12846be2.jpg After that long day, arriving at my parents home, where I could have enough space to continue the de-muddling job: day by day, removing the mud and clay, to dispose of it as special waste in plastic bags. Every single time I approached the car, I thought the same: and now, how can I do? Not sure I can find the way to do this... https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e9dda2b857.jpg Believe me, the door both locked, the rear lid and front bonnet, locked and full of .... everything you imagine to do in order to open those compartments, while the cable are gone, literally destroyed by corrosion, and the mechanism are totally cemented, forget it. I had to approach the problems one by one, otherwise was too much to substain psychologically: so I started first from the front bonnet...I didn’t want to cut it, I didn’t want to cut the locking parts...finally, looking at the pet and making a comparison (you notice things you need only if and when you need it) I saw that the hook is fixed to the bonnet with just two small bolt nuts: here we go, I thought, small wrench(we name it “chiave inglese”) and lot of patience, finally the bonnet opened by himself like an “apriti sesamo” of Aladin Lamp, because the two piston were still doing their job really well! https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f818cb5fbf.jpg The front luggage compartment was full of, again, s..t, such a pleasure and satisfaction to free another part of the car and discover its conditions. The same procedure for the rear lid, this time seeing the engine full of stuff...wow...how to remove it all, with the engine still there! it is such a long process I’ve been through so far, and I am not even half of the way to restore the chassis the way it myust become in my mind... I was moved when I saw the sticker with the optional codes still attached to the hood and readable! German quality ... even paper, ink and quality glue! Regarding this, what color represents the L998 color option? |
Wow! I don't know what else to say. That is quite a job, and crazy. Good luck to you. As far as the color code, it looks like a non-metallic, special order paint to sample.
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Wow! So the car was submerged in a river for 4 years? Let me be the first to say that I'm jealous. Would love to acquire a somewhat bruised example like this. Andreas |
Merry Christmas and Wow!
Looking from afar and not being the one having to scrape all the s..t out, I love this. Please keep us up to date with your progress and more photos! |
Does 993 make a good shrimpin' boat, captain?
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This makes me both happy and sad to see this. I hope you bring life back to it!
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let me be the first to say that I'm jealous. Would love to acquire a somewhat bruised example like this. The few ones I talked about this project, started looking at me like a very out of mind person... I think L998 means paint to sample option, which in this case, was, from what I can desume so far, the “Lime Yellow” color, code L10W - LM1A. Before painting it, I will ask for the Certificate at my local Porsche dealer, to have the pedigree of the car. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c7d167c80.jpeg It is still visible just a part of something like a 0 or a 9 before the W a then 9 and a 1, that I don’t know what they mean. It is something more or less being a 993 archeologist :) |
Great find, ambitious project, subscribed! Great to see someone trying to restore this car. Merry Christmas! |
"Anyway, like I was sayin', shrimp is the fruit of the sea. You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute it. Dey's uh, shrimp-kabobs, shrimp creole, shrimp gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried. There's pineapple shrimp, lemon shrimp, coconut shrimp, pepper shrimp, shrimp soup, shrimp stew, shrimp salad, shrimp and potatoes, shrimp burger, shrimp sandwich. That- that's about it."-Bubba
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It will be fun to follow your progress - congrats on the dedication to do the project. I am admittedly jealous! Look at it this way: after surviving all of the s..t shoveling, the rest will be easy!! Is anyone as surprised as I am that the car was just left in the river for 4 1/2 years? I’m shocked someone didn’t get it sooner! |
If you presented this anywhere else they would set up an intervention and try to talk you out of it. Here..... we nod our heads and say go for it. Wow.... this will be a wild one.
And, your options; Code Option Description 030 Sport Group 220 Locking differential 224 Active Brake Differential 233 Original tires, Pirelli 298 Prepared for unleaded fuel, manual transmission 437 Comfort seat left 438 Comfort seat right 573 Air conditioner |
Is anyone as surprised as I am that the car was just left in the river for 4 1/2 years? I’m shocked someone didn’t get it sooner! The car went down into a river during a very torrential rain, so the river that usually is 3 meters depth, it was 10 or more, because the accident happened in a point of the river where the width is much smaller, and the banks of the river are high because the path of the river must pass through an inhabited area, becoming practically like a duct channel. When the car flew down into the water, the owner/driver was barely able to save himself only because is a very trained swimmer, because the drift was very strong and the water was mixed with mud and debris. The car sank and no longer re-emerged until the spring of this year: as soon as it re-emerged, it was pulled out. Since then, everything that has been extracted from the car has been disposed of as special waste: even the mud, definitely mixed with pollutants, has been disposed of in landfills. I have done everything possible to respect the environment, since the car came into my possession, and before it was not possible to act differently, not being possible for the owner to establish where it was finished. The Bisenzio river, not far from the point of the accident, enters the Arno river, which is 5 meters deep even in the lean periods. So the car could be finished literally everywhere. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...cf99e92a02.jpg This is the way it was I think this is part of the charm of this discovery, especially because, apart from the damage to the car, the owner / driver managed to save himself. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...42c72ec52f.jpg Bubba Gump |
Crazy story. You, sir, have some serious cojones to want to restore this car. I applaud you and look forward to this journey.
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Wow... subscribed |
Chuck is very right. We are all nodding our heads in disbelief and approval. To me, this is beyond cool, actually. the whole story - "one dark and stormy night", the stop-frame of a car mid-air above the water, the find, the restoration... Love it!
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Fantastic story, thanks for sharing and glad to hear the driver escaped a real tragedy. While your wallet will hate you during the journey, we as a community will love it and support the effort until the very end.
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Mio dio, tu sei pazzo. Ma buona fortuna.
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Once retrieved, was it somehow auctioned, or did you know the owner? Andreas |
Once retrieved, was it somehow auctioned, or did you know the owner? The 4th owner was the one to flew into the river: I didn’t know him, but during an event at the local Porsche dealer like 3/4 years ago, I asked the 2nd owner how was with the yellow 993...and he answered me the car wasn’t in his disposal anymore, since he sold it, but then he described me the accident, occurred to a friend of him, the fourth owner. So as I saw the picture of a yellow 993, taken out from the river, approximately in the area described few years before...how many yellow 993 are supposed to be fallen into this river? I asked the 2nd owner if he could give me the contact of the 4th owner, because I could consider to buy it, and so it has gone. The ridiculous and so very italian thing is that I must pay the taxes like if the car were able to run.....luckily Americans didn’t experience the cultural influence of the red devil coming from the east. But probably, more or less, every place has its own damn-nation. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9b97bcba51.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5ff70a1b0f.jpg |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15520714)
.....luckily Americans didn’t experience the cultural influence of the red devil coming from the east.
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No. Ours is orange, slithering out of a golden toilet. By the way, I am thinking about the color: I saw few 87-88 911 described as painted in summer yellow, but I didn’t find any technical info reguarding this color which I think actually was “lime yellow”,that infact was from the same period. The fact that made me think it is Lime Yellow is that either it is a customer paint to sample, or it cannot be a color like pastel yellow, that entered the catalog only in 96/97, while the car is a 95. Furhermore, from what remains of the color stick, it seems to be visible at least the W and probably the top part of the O of the code L10W, the lime yellow code. Crazy guessing, for a crazy project ;) |
Fayence yellow?
Might be.
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I’m speechless! Bravo sir for taking on a project of this magnitude. The options sticker under my hood also shows L998, indicating PTS. My first thought was Pastel Yellow as well but didn’t know PY was only offered 96-98. |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15520714)
this is a nice question: when I was at high school the 2nd owner of this 993, used to pass right in front of my house, stopping in front of my gate if I was around because he is friend of my parents and I am friend of his doughters.
The 4th owner was the one to flew into the river: I didn’t know him, but during an event at the local Porsche dealer like 3/4 years ago, I asked the 2nd owner how was with the yellow 993...and he answered me the car wasn’t in his disposal anymore, since he sold it, but then he described me the accident, occurred to a friend of him, the fourth owner. So as I saw the picture of a yellow 993, taken out from the river, approximately in the area described few years before...how many yellow 993 are supposed to be fallen into this river? I asked the 2nd owner if he could give me the contact of the 4th owner, because I could consider to buy it, and so it has gone. The ridiculous and so very italian thing is that I must pay the taxes like if the car were able to run.....luckily Americans didn’t experience the cultural influence of the red devil coming from the east. But probably, more or less, every place has its own damn-nation. Well, that's an awesome story and I would have pursued the car in the same way. Like a moth to a flame. :) Andreas |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15520797)
If I would understand what you wrote, my English language and culture would be probably like if I were born there. No worries, I wasn't born here either :) Your English is great! By the way, I am thinking about the color: I saw few 87-88 911 described as painted in summer yellow, but I didn’t find any technical info reguarding this color which I think actually was “lime yellow”,that infact was from the same period. The fact that made me think it is Lime Yellow is that either it is a customer paint to sample, or it cannot be a color like pastel yellow, that entered the catalog only in 96/97, while the car is a 95. Furhermore, from what remains of the color stick, it seems to be visible at least the W and probably the top part of the O of the code L10W, the lime yellow code. Crazy guessing, for a crazy project ;) |
Buon Natale! I shall drink Brunello later today and raise a glass, saluting your remarkable project.
Your English is fantastic. I suspect no one on this Forum knows Italian, or if they do, not well. Where in Tuscany are your located? Care to give share your first name? Fred |
Cool as ****! In! |
My first thought was Pastel Yellow as well but didn’t know PY was only offered 96-98. http://www.elferclassic.de/technik/f...plack-gelb.php and summer Yellow doesn’t exist. Fly yellow, 964 color, doesn’t have a W inside its code, that is 10L and the same is for pastel yellow. So, what I can desume so far, is that very probably the color either is “lime yellow” L10W, or a customized yellow on special order, which could be also possible. I have time to ask to the Porsche Local Dealer what color was this car exactly. Right now, in order to start the body work, I “only” need to find/acquire the technical specs of welding and reinforcements added by Porsche onto its CUP versions, and right diameter, thickness and bends of the steel structure of the rollbar cage. In the meanwhile will need to find an experienced specialist with such race “structures”...there is no rush, but I am not going to sleep. |
This is an awesome, somewhat hilarious, story. Good luck OP, this is quite a task. I would start by stripping the car completely and putting it on a Celette bench to make sure the unibody is straight. It probably isn't, but doesn't look too bad.
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Wow. Best of luck to you nothingbutgt3. I hope the restoration goes well.
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Where in Tuscany are your located? Care to give share your first name? Fred My English is improving all the time I read technical posts here as well, because passion helps me putting more effort for understanding, even when I am tired at the end of the working day. Restoring cars is not my job, and the time and resources I am investing in this project are intended to be not for selling it, but it is at least two things together: - bring a marvelous 993 back to life and good shape, because I remember how it was and could be again; - making of it even a much more effective athlete, in my mind the most brutal but refined and race oriented 993...CUP chassis with RSR engine This is so far from my sight right now....I must think step by step, and for the moment the goal is to rebuild a 1:1 993 cup chassis. Celette bench to make sure the unibody is straight. It probably isn't, but doesn't look too bad. From what I could see so far, the tubular are straight and undameged, but of course the car must be totally verified. Best of luck to you nothingbutgt3. I hope the restoration goes well. After a very long search I think I found the color sticker https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e630f3a0f.jpeg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e5dc81c04.jpeg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c33339dd6.jpeg The last sticker is also the newest one, and the one that probably was on the 993. Now I am asking myself what can represent the number 1 instead of the 2 after the 9, inside the color code. |
Limon Gelb or lemon yellow yes possibly a PTS color was also a very common British Leland color on Triumph, MG and Jaguar must have had three or four TR 6 in this color similar to pastel or sunflower yellow ..
Must complement you on your determination yes most to come upon a chassi with this kind of damage would walk away but hey if you can do the lions share yourself it could pay off .. Not likely but possibly haha ! Also and to convert to RS or RSR spec all the more respect if I can be of any assistance I have only recently completed an RS Cup clone so very known model in spec ! Bert |
good grief. talk about resurrecting something from the dead! incredible project. with enough patience, time, and money, this thing will be given new life.
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Wow. Quite the archaeological find.
Lemon Yellow was a Porsche color in the late 80s. Offered for two years, as I recall. For the North American market it was specifically renamed Summer Yellow, to avoid any connection to a "lemon." In North America the term "lemon" is sometimes used to describe a car in poor condition. I would say you definitely have a lemon though, but in a good way! I think? Merry Christmas! |
Fantastico!
Fantastico! Subscribed :cheers: @nothingbutgt3 Please continue to share your jounery, stay positive and focused on your dream/vision, we are all cheering you on. A tale for the ages that will be amazing. |
Amazing!
Good luck in your attempt to actually increase the number of running 993 in the world. |
Subscribed!:thumbup:
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Buon Natale! I shall drink Brunello later today and raise a glass, saluting your remarkable project. Wow. Quite the archaeological find. many greetings from the shell good grief. talk about resurrecting something from the dead! incredible project. with enough patience, time, and money, this thing will be given new life. It was just a case, but an happy one, if I stop and I think about the conditions this car has been in the last 4 years (and still is)...in the fact, probably it has happened the 25 of december because finally I could relax for a moment, rest and maybe take the sums of the past year and plan things to do for the year that comes ... I truly believe that joyning this community was one of the best action I could do. Reading all the passion and all your desire to share your knowledge is a big support, believe me. Sharing a little bit of crazyness for these marvellous objects, as well, helps. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a8d5072f90.jpg almost safe https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...98b1a6262d.jpg damn, it hurts https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3a329dfdd4.jpg souch a sad expression... https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b0a282fbf7.jpg Removing the engine, was really a mess: despite having cleaned so much, dirt everywhere emerged while with the help of a friend we were triying to remove the engine-gearbox block https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...57702d37e1.jpg probably the seat of the fan is made of magnesium alloy, with lower reduction potential than aluminum, it has played the part of a sacrificial anode (as for the boats the zinc) One of the most difficult things was the removal of the seats, without damaging or cutting the floor or the structure of the seats themselves ... and without the aid of the blowtorch or other products to unlock the screws that secure the seats to the floor . For each seat, I first had to cut each guide in 4 points: once detached the worm-wheel rail on which the electric motor acts, with the help of a "nice" hammer and a wedge, I managed to slide the seat forward to get to the Allen screws, mostly nailed, on which I then engraved a notch in order to use a longer lever. It took a long time, but what a satisfaction now to see the floor undamaged. Next update, images from my trip to germany... |
hey look - another 993 that looks better than my POS.
:rolleyes: :bigbye: |
It's a cool car in a cool color, but OP, I gotta be real with you. You are going to have to literally replace every single part on this car. Maybe not the engine case and cam housings and a few other aluminum parts. But everything else, from the wiring harness to the gauges to the complete interior to the alternator and distributor, will all need to be replaced. The innards of the gearbox. The CV joints. The window motors. The wiper motor. The sunroof motor. The power steering pump. The steering rack. The ECU, the CCU, the ABS brain, the ABS pump. Every nut and bolt and washer is rusted. You will have to track down and replace every little thing. Maybe you have the money and the time, but it's going to cost you the price of three or four 993's and several years to put this one particular 993 back on the road.
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Paolo,
Yes, the fan shroud & fan are both made of magnesium. I wonder how much additional damage was caused by the excavator - not that there was much choice. Andreas |
But everything else, from the wiring harness to the gauges to the complete interior to the alternator and distributor, will all need to be replaced. The innards of the gearbox. The CV joints. The window motors. The wiper motor. The sunroof motor. The power steering pump. The steering rack. The ECU, the CCU, the ABS brain, the ABS pump. Every nut and bolt and washer is rusted. You will have to track down and replace every little thing. I have no rush, I have already a wonderful 993 in my garage, this one of course will need a new ECU, a new ABS brain, because it's going to be a CUP. Not more or less a CUP, but a true CUP . No power windows at all, non A/C, no heating, no Venter locking, nothing. I planned to make it step by step: now it is time for the chassis and body work, but I am already having a look around and taking infos about everything else is needed. Then if it'll take 4/5/6/7 years, I DON'T CARE. People very often spend resourses for investment, I am making an investment as well, putting effort doing what i like in my free time, when I can. Instead of losing my time watching political forum on the TV, or watching Sport, or silly programs (just my personal opinion), thanks God now I know what to do when i am home and dont really know what to do: how do you name this, hobby maybe? There are people spending thousand dollar going tuna fishing, or skiing, or whatever. This is something I can do at home, very practical, and I must say, also refreshing: the time I spend there doesn't encrease my tiredness at the end of the day, or during the weekend, but it relaxes me. It is like having meditation... And I think it is a great opportunity to know this amazing creature in every single part, every single bolt. People throw away money in things without knowing why, just because the society is asking to do it, I am doing something because I decided it. Name me anarchic if you like it: at least in our free time, can't we decide what to do? But I think you are right, it is not a think one can do making comrpomises: it is a Porsche, no compromise at all. I wanted a track car, now I can build it. Does it scares me a bit? Yes Am I going to renounce? No. It is something electrifying, to me...everyone is different. I respect others point of view. If one would have asked me whatbi could think about such a project started by someone else, I would probably have thought the same. But now, not anymore, at all Probably is like having children, you can really understand it when you got one. Because probably the mind changes it's perspective... And another thing, very remarkable, so very much appreciated, I met person sharing the same passion inside the Porsche World...how much would you value the enrichment as a side effect of such a project? I think you cannot give a value to human relations, it is priceless. OK, maybe I am in a loop and I don't see the rest: so, let's loop. |
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8cc32e2e3b.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d18769c541.jpg Great attitude. Penso che tu non sei sposato? Not as ambitious to any extent but over the years I have gradually changed my std '94 into an RS replica using all genuine Porsche parts. In other words I have made my car less valuable by spending a fortune. The latest is Vram conversion inspired by JM993 (who unfortunately was banned by this forum). Non me frega niente. So I say good luck keep at it and the next time I am in Firenze I will come to see you. We stay at Fiesole. My sons came to see my latest project this Christmas. |
Good luck my friend. It's a hard project but a wonderful one. Sounds like you know what you're getting yourself into. :thumbup:
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Paulo,
Your 993 has a similar car (Bugatti) that was underwater in a lake in Switzerland for many years, now resting in a museum in California... https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b5e9d65ec9.jpg |
Good luck my friend. It's a hard project but a wonderful one. Sounds like you know what you're getting yourself into. :thumbup: The innards of the gearbox. I am going to put this gearbox into the other 993, because of the shorter gear ratios. The end of the project is so distant to me, that in the meanwhile I take advantage to temporarily modify the aerodynamics and the suspensions of the other one into full RS specs, with full RS Clubsport aero. Ive read here it doesn’t make all that difference, and probably the car looks worse, maybe just a little bit improvement, together with the lowering. Will see. May I call you Winston? ;) Thank you very much, I appreciate it. Great attitude. Penso che tu non sei sposato? In other words I have made my car less valuable by spending a fortune So I say good luck keep at it and the next time I am in Firenze I will come to see you. We stay at Fiesole When you are around, you must tell me, do you think we’ll be able to talk about something else than 993? ok, also 964 is nice, same engine block... :) Paulo, Your 993 has a similar car (Bugatti) that was underwater in a lake in Switzerland for many years, now resting in a museum in California... https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b5e9d65ec9.jpg I’ve heard about it, but never saw a picture: WoW, it looks beautiful! Great idea! And the California desert is such a perfect place for preserving a mummy (just kidding) where in California, precisely? Need an excuse to come visiting again the amazing places you have there...and Mexican and Japanese food...wow, still dream of it...and eggs Benedict...in the middle of the morning...so good! |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15520797)
If I would understand what you wrote, my English language and culture would be probably like if I were born there. |
Originally Posted by Churchill
(Post 15524309)
It's a cool car in a cool color, but OP, I gotta be real with you. You are going to have to literally replace every single part on this car. Maybe not the engine case and cam housings and a few other aluminum parts. But everything else, from the wiring harness to the gauges to the complete interior to the alternator and distributor, will all need to be replaced. The innards of the gearbox. The CV joints. The window motors. The wiper motor. The sunroof motor. The power steering pump. The steering rack. The ECU, the CCU, the ABS brain, the ABS pump. Every nut and bolt and washer is rusted. You will have to track down and replace every little thing. Maybe you have the money and the time, but it's going to cost you the price of three or four 993's and several years to put this one particular 993 back on the road.
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Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15524578)
It will definitely be expensive...
Then if it'll take 4/5/6/7 years, I DON'T CARE. People very often spend resourses for investment, I am making an investment as well, putting effort doing what i like in my free time, when I can. Instead of losing my time watching political forum on the TV, or watching Sport, or silly programs (just my personal opinion), thanks God now I know what to do when i am home and dont really know what to do: how do you name this, hobby maybe? There are people spending thousand dollar going tuna fishing, or skiing, or whatever. This is something I can do at home, very practical, and I must say, also refreshing: the time I spend there doesn't encrease my tiredness at the end of the day, or during the weekend, but it relaxes me. It is like having meditation... And I think it is a great opportunity to know this amazing creature in every single part, every single bolt. People throw away money in things without knowing why, just because the society is asking to do it, I am doing something because I decided it. Name me anarchic if you like it: at least in our free time, can't we decide what to do? And another thing, very remarkable, so very much appreciated, I met person sharing the same passion inside the Porsche World...how much would you value the enrichment as a side effect of such a project? I think you cannot give a value to human relations, it is priceless.. |
I think Paolo has the very right attitude for this. Slow and deliberate, no hurry, t's more of a wide-ranging social hobby. I mean, most of us are here because of people at least initially. This is such a throwback to the old Rennlist. Warms my heart. And I'm not being sarcastic, it seriously does. If I'm in Tuscany any time soon, I'm definitely begging to see the project in person and buying Paolo a pint.
On a side note, Paolo if you need any parts from the States, especially something used and possibly less expensive that it is in Europe, don't hesitate to contact me, I'll be more than happy to chase it down and ship as needed. |
Paolo,
The next Rennsport Reunion, a world-renowned Porsche event in the U.S., recently held at Mazda Laguna Seca Race Track in California, probably will next occur in September, 2021. Might be your goal to finish? Consider shipping it over, showing the car, telling its story, then doing another drive here. Some of us can help you with logistics. Take lots of pictures as you restore. Have you made contact with the Porsche factory and Porsche Classic in Zuffenhausen? Perhaps they would be of assistance, or offer advice in your amazing project? Fred |
nothingbutgt3,
The Bugatti is in the fabulous Mullin Museum in Oxnard, CA, open only a few days a year, but otherwise you can buy a ticket for a "semi-private" tour, still not too expensive. Link here: http://www.mullinautomotivemuseum.com/ Another great one not far away is the Nethercutt Collection: https://www.nethercuttcollection.org/ Sorry for the side trip... |
buy a parts car bust ass for a year or so and get it done !
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The next Rennsport Reunion, a world-renowned Porsche event in the U.S., recently held at Mazda Laguna Seca Race Track in California, probably will next occur in September, 2021. Might be your goal to finish? Consider shipping it over, showing the car, telling its story, then doing another drive here. Some of us can help you with logistics. Because the wheel hub must be the center lock one, the engine a complete RSR spec, gearbox I’d like to upgrade to a 997 CUP sequential, light glasses, vtr doors, CUP brakes, cup steering. Have you made contact with the Porsche factory and Porsche Classic in Zuffenhausen? Perhaps they would be of assistance, or offer advice in your amazing project? I know it is not anymore produced, but I met a person in Germany who told me there is someone able to reproduce it 1:1 same material, same diameter, same thickness, same folds. To find an original Matter, would be the best, but for what price? And in what a 1:1 reproduction would be “less”? I must get all the elements before starting the body work, until then, I will not start with it. And this research could take several months or maybe just few weeks: let’s see. buy a parts car bust ass for a year or so and get it done ! |
Originally Posted by Churchill
(Post 15524309)
It's a cool car in a cool color, but OP, I gotta be real with you. You are going to have to literally replace every single part on this car. Maybe not the engine case and cam housings and a few other aluminum parts. But everything else, from the wiring harness to the gauges to the complete interior to the alternator and distributor, will all need to be replaced. The innards of the gearbox. The CV joints. The window motors. The wiper motor. The sunroof motor. The power steering pump. The steering rack. The ECU, the CCU, the ABS brain, the ABS pump. Every nut and bolt and washer is rusted. You will have to track down and replace every little thing. Maybe you have the money and the time, but it's going to cost you the price of three or four 993's and several years to put this one particular 993 back on the road.
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15524578)
It will definitely be expensive, but, there is a but, the time factor is very important.
I have no rush, I have already a wonderful 993 in my garage, this one of course will need a new ECU, a new ABS brain, because it's going to be a CUP. Not more or less a CUP, but a true CUP . No power windows at all, non A/C, no heating, no Venter locking, nothing. I planned to make it step by step: now it is time for the chassis and body work, but I am already having a look around and taking infos about everything else is needed. Then if it'll take 4/5/6/7 years, I DON'T CARE. People very often spend resourses for investment, I am making an investment as well, putting effort doing what i like in my free time, when I can. Instead of losing my time watching political forum on the TV, or watching Sport, or silly programs (just my personal opinion), thanks God now I know what to do when i am home and dont really know what to do: how do you name this, hobby maybe? There are people spending thousand dollar going tuna fishing, or skiing, or whatever. This is something I can do at home, very practical, and I must say, also refreshing: the time I spend there doesn't encrease my tiredness at the end of the day, or during the weekend, but it relaxes me. It is like having meditation... And I think it is a great opportunity to know this amazing creature in every single part, every single bolt. People throw away money in things without knowing why, just because the society is asking to do it, I am doing something because I decided it. Name me anarchic if you like it: at least in our free time, can't we decide what to do? But I think you are right, it is not a think one can do making comrpomises: it is a Porsche, no compromise at all. I wanted a track car, now I can build it. Does it scares me a bit? Yes Am I going to renounce? No. It is something electrifying, to me...everyone is different. I respect others point of view. If one would have asked me whatbi could think about such a project started by someone else, I would probably have thought the same. But now, not anymore, at all Probably is like having children, you can really understand it when you got one. Because probably the mind changes it's perspective... And another thing, very remarkable, so very much appreciated, I met person sharing the same passion inside the Porsche World...how much would you value the enrichment as a side effect of such a project? I think you cannot give a value to human relations, it is priceless. OK, maybe I am in a loop and I don't see the rest: so, let's loop.
Originally Posted by sub-zero
(Post 15525525)
buy a parts car bust ass for a year or so and get it done !
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15525703)
I wish I could understand this sentence, what it means, it would mean I am very good in your language
Are you concerned the original factory welds may be compromised? How do you assess those? Even if seams look good how do you know they don't have corrosion within? I am looking forward to your progress. Good luck! |
Are you concerned the original factory welds may be compromised? How do you assess those? Even if seams look good how do you know they don't have corrosion within? Exactly today, lounch pause, I spent 45 minutes, cleaning a bit the inside of the car, and I made the same thought: the car has been carefully examinated by 2 tinsmith (is this the right word?!), and they both considered the car totally free of rust. I was considering to blast the car with water from a specialist before starting the body work, in order to clear the surfaces in every little angle of the car, but one of them told me that this way I could loose the galvanizing layer: my personal opinion, so far, is to remove all the grout from the joints and sheet couplings, and sandblast the surfaces carefully, but without exaggerating. If I had the structure to hang the car and rotate it, I would do it myself. So maybe first, I have to build this structure to work freely on the car. I saw, I believe here on Rennlist, that someone had used the front and rear bumpers to attach two steel bars hinged on two fulcrums, so that he could turn the car like a boar on the rotisserie. This is what I need, I think. About the weldings, I definitely need the construction details of the CUP car. Sub Zero is suggesting you buy a third 993 as parts car, one that is also damaged and undrivable but may have many usable parts in good condition. Bust ass means to work hard. The opinions of the experts I have called to evaluate the conditions of the car agree on the whole line, ie in order to do the job the following parts are needed: - Bonnet - the two front fenders - the two rear sides - the two sills - the right door - the windscreen, to be used also as a reference, in the roof rectification phase - the right rear window - the front and rear bumpers not a short list, I'd say. But having the list of the needed parts to do the job was very important to me, because it allowed me to know what I had to find. I tried between the used parts, I mean parts that were saved from 993 accidents, or leftover stock parts, but to be honest, I did'nt have all that confidence to find anything really effective. Basically I looked for them in Italy, England and Germany and I must say that in the last one I was surprised how much interest and activity is present in the Porsche used parts: I thought, perhaps because germans use these cars more often han elsewhere, perhaps because the road more frequently is wet, or maybe because I have noticed that for them quite often a very small defect becomes unacceptable and therefore they change everything, leaving practically perfect spare parts in the hands of the mechanics and coachbuilders for free. I must say, whatever is the reason, I must thank the people I met for the passion, the honesty and the pride that they put in what they do: Porsche is appreciated all over the world and moves the passion of creatures maybe even outside the planet (who knows, maybe they are observing us somewhere), but its history is born in Germany and It is clearly very easy to understand that they are, rightly so, very proud of it. A small but significant parenthesis I have to do: how did I chose where to go, who to trust? After a careful selection made through e-mails and telephone conversations in german, the incredible part of the story is that, the parts I went to Germany to carefully explore before buying, were always exactly the way they have been described from the seller. Let me tell you this: it is not a small thing, and it is not so frequent. Such a clear and consistent behavior. In any case, I managed to find and take home all the necessary parts in Tuscany, in one trip, plus yellow front arrows, yellow rear lights, oil tank and oil lines (delivery and return), in addition to the side supports of the rear bumper. Also it was part of the purchase agreement that I had to take other parts, namely the spark plugs wires of the 993 Turbo (which frankly I dont really need at all) and other parts that I do not remember now. But there is a part of the story that I have not told you yet: both the rear sides have not been cut by damaged cars, and they are not even spare parts, no ... when I saw them, when I see them, I have to confess that a little I get emotional. They are the sides, all in a single piece, ie the side and the door sills already joined, stock surplus from the Porsche 993 of the '98 assembly line. Someone here may perhaps confirm or deny this story, told me by the seller: practically these parts are like making a jump in the past, not produced with the stamps from the company that has bought the molds back then, so they are not produced recently from , let’s say, “someone else”, but they are really genuine porsche parts, produced by Porsche for its own assembly line. They are parts in bare metal and on them are written words in German, with a marker, each time the quality control found small defects not even visible to the naked eye (at least to mine), to warn those who would have mounted them to be careful, in order to correct the defects during assembly. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0917aadfae.jpg therefore, in fact, the sheet metal that will be installed, with the exception of the bonnet, are not reproduced parts, but original parts produced by Porsche Personally, I think I will have difficulty accepting to see them fit ... more than parts to replace the sides of a car, they are more pieces of art to be displayed in a garage, or in a museum. OK, maybe too much, but maybe not really. They are so beautiful ... https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7851661170.jpg two pieces of history, perfectly coupled As I came back from my long long weekend and 4500 kms in 4 days, so out of curiosity, I looked over the internet, and what did I see ?! Someone had advertised the sale of the original rear wing of the RS-Clubsport aerokit the day before ... Now, one clear thing I had in my mind from the very beginning: I wanted and I want to make a track car, a 1:1 faithful reproduction of the 993 CUP, and the CUPs had that kit. 1 + 1 should make 2 not always, but usually, maybe... Damn, but I had returned not even from a week ... he could have put it on sale before! I got in touch with the seller, an authentic car enthusiast and driver, who I later discovered was also a very serious and crystal clear person...of such people it seems to have thrown away the molds. On the "word" we agreed that I would go there, again to Germany :) and get the wing the following weekend (ie two weeks after having already been in Germany!) And he accepted, but above all, he kept his word, not selling to others the wing. This, I confess, is the thing that move me into something, because I think: hey, then maybe there is still hope, it's not all black and negative as they describe it. Thanks Joachim, you will not read me, you probably will never read it, but I thank you all the same. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9a2340bc26.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...10d35e8881.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...575b7afab9.jpg Since I do not think things happen by chance, "accidentally" the color of this beautiful sculptured rear spoiler is exactly the one of the other 993 I have in the garage ... while waiting Limoncella to be finished, I already know where it will find place ... otherwise someone here could become jealous ;) Do you understand that I also enjoyed it so much? P.S. My sentences are very long for at least two reasons: 1) I am kind of a little "precisino" kind of person, I like to describe things in the best way I can 2) to say something in English I have to use more words. I hope to improve on the way. |
Ciao - Wow, the rear quarter panels look great! Those are a great find. Congratulations.
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You're right about the rear panels being art. Id like to have those on my wall.
Love what you are doing. It's way over my abilities. Good luck. |
Nient'affatto. Tu sai parlare inglese bene. You will need a spit (rotissiere) my friend has done the same on an Ausitn Healey 3000. Unfortunately Porsche parts are more expensive. We have Ninemeister in the UK who have done amazing jobs on 911's. You can do anything if you have the time and the money.
9m did a complete restoration of a 993 to RS spec (on Rennlist) worth a look. |
Congrats on an exciting project.
You should send your mufflers to Darin at FD Motorsports in California for "restoration" to stage 3. I bet Darin will also offer you a free smokie and beer if you make it to rennsport in 2021. |
UN-BE-LIEVABLE!! My new favorite thread. This is such an awesome story - gonna be fun to follow this one :thumbup:
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Subscribed!
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A little upgrade, this is what remains of the engine...maybe it is interesting to evaluate how long it lasts every single part of the engine, or in other words, what “goes” first. uhm...how can I manage to attach a *.wmv to the message? |
I don't think you can. You can upload it to YouTube and share the link/url with us.
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Originally Posted by The Eagle
(Post 15548054)
I don't think you can. You can upload it to YouTube and share the link/url with us.
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Indeed it will be interesting to see what engine and gearbox internals have survived.
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Originally Posted by Endoman
(Post 15548505)
Indeed it will be interesting to see what engine and gearbox internals have survived.
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Better play it safe and change those belts. I think you are nuts, in a good way. GL and subscribed.
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This guy is off his “sedia a dondolo” |
Fascinating thread, subscribed.
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I am in awe, having just found this thread.
I am looking forward to following your project until you are complete! If we ever make it back to your beautiful country - my wife and I honeymooned in Italy - maybe we will be able to see your restored car in person! Good luck! |
Originally Posted by SpeedyC2
(Post 15550339)
I am in awe, having just found this thread.
Good luck! |
Little Update: Fan and Valve Cover Removal
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d58c7ffd1a.jpg The hammer...the ubiquitous solution to any seemingly unsolvable problem https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...83a960cbe4.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4585090379.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...bda07f8759.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...cd799a1207.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1ab78864b2.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...fee16ae62d.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...562f6d24cd.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3775d40bb8.jpg Air temperature 1 degree centigrade, optimistically speaking ... if it continues like this they will find me under the ice together with the engine :) In order to disassemble the engine, what should be the next step? |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15553223)
I don't know if you are aware, but you should have the shell professionally dried, prepped, and E-coated. Water would have gotten inside all the internal cavities of the body shell. All the access plugs should be removed, and the cavities inspected with a scope. There may be major corrosion that is not visible just looking at the bare shell. |
I don't know if you are aware, but you should have the shell professionally dried, prepped, and E-coated. Water would have gotten inside all the internal cavities of the body shell. All the access plugs should be removed, and the cavities inspected with a scope. There may be major corrosion that is not visible just looking at the bare shell. I don't know if it will be necessary. It is too early to spend words about what will be necessary to do on the internal parts of the engine. If I find them too damaged I do not think it is convenient to proceed with a restoration of the engine. I know for sure that the engine, when the car ended up in the water, had traveled about 130,000km. |
Here's your order of disassembly:
1. Chain tensioners 2. Cam sprockets 3. Rocker arms and shafts 4. Slide out cams 5. Head nuts 6. Remove cam housings/heads 7. Slide cylinders off pistons (may take some force as piston rings may be rusted to the cylinder walls) 8. Remove circlips at small ends of connecting rods, slide out wrist pins 9. Remove pistons from rods 10. Split the case |
Surfaces can be refinished twice up to a max of .020" or roughly .5mm. It is possible the engine stayed sealed but if it didn't I suspect you will have some great artifacts and story to tell. I am shocked you were actually able to remove some of the fasteners. The real surprise is that the magnesium knock sensor bars look so good.
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1. Chain tensioners 2. Cam sprockets 3. Rocker arms and shafts 4. Slide out cams 5. Head nuts 6. Remove cam housings/heads 7. Slide cylinders off pistons (may take some force as piston rings may be rusted to the cylinder walls) 8. Remove circlips at small ends of connecting rods, slide out wrist pins 9. Remove pistons from rods 10. Split the case Each number a big discovery (for me), but knowing the order is sooo appreciated! Thank you! I am shocked you were actually able to remove some of the fasteners. I am trying to be as prudent and circumspect as possible. |
Update from today: engine heads removed, nice to see all the top of cilinders come put so easily, in one single piece.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8bb71faab9.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...003323eedb.jpg professional workbench :) https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...06076f867c.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2f0fce7559.jpg woodruff keys https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8e6100e681.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c286b3cc94.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...83cedb12b1.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b4487a0556.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ebf0b87469.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...51369c3f49.jpg Next Step is Cilinder Removal. I'm afraid I can scratch the cylinder walls. Should I use any precautions? Some kind of lubricant? Is there a technique to pull out the cylinders? |
On a normal engine they slide off easily. On your it may take a little more force. Don't worry about scratching the cylinder walls, they will need to have the Nikasyl coating re-applied anyway. The rings on the pistons are very rusty and surely have corroded the walls of the cylinders. Just give the cylinders a pull.
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You can separate the heads from the cam housings by removing the nuts/washers holding them together. The heads are individual, i.e. there are six of them, and two cam housings. Look into the cam housings from where the valve covers bolt on, and you'll see the nuts. After you remove all of them (look carefully, some are hidden), use a rubber mallet to carefully knock the cylinders off. They are held on with sealant that will break free pretty easily. Don't hit the heads on any of the cooling fins -- they will break.
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At that point a huge cleaning of the heads and cylinders/pistons with hot high pressure cleaner ... and a good ultrasonic bath for the heads ....could be interesting . |
Originally Posted by cup997laurent
(Post 15556871)
At that point a huge cleaning of the heads and cylinders/pistons with hot high pressure cleaner ... and a good ultrasonic bath for the heads ....could be interesting . |
Fantastic project; all the very best!
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Originally Posted by cup997laurent
(Post 15556871)
At that point a huge cleaning of the heads and cylinders/pistons with hot high pressure cleaner ... and a good ultrasonic bath for the heads ....could be interesting . |
I continue to click on this thread, returning to it like a moth to a flame. Fascinating to see the car dissected like this. Andreas |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15553223)
Little Update: Fan and Valve Cover Removal
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4585090379.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...bda07f8759.jpg |
Originally Posted by AOW162435
(Post 15557891)
I continue to click on this thread, returning to it like a moth to a flame. Fascinating to see the car dissected like this. Andreas |
Amazing project, I cannot believe how crazy (in a good way) this is! Bravo @nothingbutgt3!
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not a single snapped exhaust stud. unbelievable.
good work so far. With the right cleaning/machine work, those parts will look like new I bet. good luck going forward The cylinder walls are pretty tough nikasil, but to be sure, try your best to clean out any sludge/grit before moving the pistons in the bores |
great project and love reading about it. great patina.
you mentioned galvanized panels, and worrying about removing the galvanizing...fyi, I believe the motorsports cars do not have galvanizing. carry on and keep showing pics. |
Originally Posted by Quadcammer
(Post 15558481)
not a single snapped exhaust stud. unbelievable.
good work so far. With the right cleaning/machine work, those parts will look like new I bet. good luck going forward The cylinder walls are pretty tough nikasil, but to be sure, try your best to clean out any sludge/grit before moving the pistons in the bores So true Quadcammer, not a single stud: today I removed the 4 stud (one longer, three same length) for mating gearbox to engine block...I had such a smiling face all the afternoon long just thinking about it! 4 years into the water and they all came out, not easily, but I'd say, probably in 15 minutes: I used the system of the 2 nuts. Then I noticed - because to disassemble the car I found many blocked nuts - that it is not a matter of the force one applies, but way more a matter of starting torque: so it is much much better to have a longer lever, but using a smaller force, instead of using a shorter lever but with a higher force. This not only because it is more effective, but also because acting this way with less force and longer lever, one can control the movement much better. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...cc8901b797.jpg 4 new shorter studs to mate the engine stand and one of the original ones For the next days I planned the following operations: 1) ask the blacksmith to build an X shaped steel plate, 0,5 cms thickness, 3/4 cms width, to allow mating the engine stand I bought in the meanwhile; 2) hanging the engine to the engine stands, rotate it so that 3 cilinders are perfectly vertical; 3) apply WD40 abundantly inside each cylinder, especially in the connection between the cylinder and the piston and allow the WD 40 to act, ie enter the piston bands, for at least 48 hours ---> maybe I'll have to change the cylinders and the pistons, but I want at least to try all the possible ways to recover them; 4) do the same on the other side, ie the other 3 cilinders; I was also thinking if I could find a way to heat the cylinders externally with electric resistors, in the manner of a electric blanket, to induce a uniform expansion on them. Surely the dilatation, even if minimal, should be greater in the cylinders than in the pistons, and it should help to pull the cylinders out without scretching their walls. Will it be a good (and walkable)idea? Maybe I could use car body lamps to heat the metal by radiation? In the meanwhile I am preparing to give a deep clean using pressure washer with hot water together with some degreasing product, for a first look under all that mud that still fills the spaces between the cooling segments. So it will take at least 4/5 days, but maybe even a week, before I will proceed to pull the cylinders out: it will be hard to resist for so long... Maybe in the meantime I could take down the engine heads ... thank you all for the phrases of encouragement and for the technical advice, really very precious. I think you already know, but you too are now part of this project! :cheers: |
You really don't need to be concerned about scratching the cylinders. Just pull them off. I promise you the rusting rings have already damaged the Nikasil plating.
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Imho you can search for a shop who will apply new Nikasil in Italy , there are at least two in France , not so far for you . wd 40 and pressure clean will help you not to aggravate what is already in the cylinders . can’t wait to see how much mud you will find under the pistons and rust .... you do a good job for your car :jumper: |
By the way when you will need pics for details of a 993 cup , I own one of those cars . South of France . |
You really don't need to be concerned about scratching the cylinders. Just pull them off. I promise you the rusting rings have already damaged the Nikasil plating. can’t wait to see how much mud you will find under the pistons and rust .... By the way when you will need pics for details of a 993 cup , I own one of those cars . South of France . |
Near Aix en Provence . |
today was a day of cleaning, engine heads cleaning: first pressure washer, then detergent product, then again pressure washer.
This is the result: the parts still dirty are encrusted with a sort of whitish limestone or chalk, but the aluminum fins are not corroded. I think that to clean these deposits I will have to disassemble the head first. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2c7e855e03.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2d4cc9f85f.jpg then I sprayed WD 40 in every part of the heads, especially on connettiture of the screws and the valve seats https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4f0849a5a9.jpg Pictures of the pistons, a bit cleaner then before, but still there, after a huge spay of WD 40 onto the connectiture with the cilinder https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7eef3cb6e2.jpg I am waiting for the blacksmith that on Monday will prepare a "coupling flange" to connect the engine crank to the stand that I bought yesterday: the flange will be 1 cm steel thick, will have 4 holes of 10mm threaded and 4 holes of 14mm not threaded. I have also bought shorter studs so that there is going to be no interference in the rotation of the engine on the stand onto its vertical arm. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f4702c9bbb.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d725813132.jpg At the end a little 'picture of the points where it is visible corrosion https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6e92590a0e.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...970d6da2eb.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...58655d9edd.jpg heaviest corrosion I think it's limestone https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...47f6306c17.jpg I am going to leave all the night long the engine heads under the WD 40 unblocking effect: tomorrow I would like to disassemble both engine heads. Any advice on the best procedure to follow? |
I would be interested what a test for impurities of the water in that river would tell us. Clearly the combination of flowing river, temperature and limited impurities have helped preserve the car considerably. Although seeing these pictures and the extent of corrosion shows it wasn't enough to make these parts useable. These show sever corrosion and when properly cleaned far more material will fall away. It might be one thing if it were limited to the outer surface but it seems to extend into some machine tolerance surfaces as well.
You also want a factory style engine yoke to split the case. There are some inexpensive rings you can bolt to the stand you have but the yoke is the best for around $300. |
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Now I think O.Wilde must have been totally right with his aphorism "I can resist anything except temptaion"
Yesterday in the evening, I tried to remove just one cilinder, just to see how stong I need to pull...and magically it came out with not very much force...so I continued. These are the cilinders how they came out, untouched, not even brushed with a damp cloth https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...cc57cf789b.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...fc1ce5e5f3.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7bf29ec573.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...595e7a20a9.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1ee11d2649.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ca3f1f4893.jpg only with one I needed to pry with a steel wedge: it took 10 minutes to remove 5 cylinders and 20 to remove one. with all I used a lot of attention Now, pictures in the morning light of the pistons https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...fbd343b64f.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8eaddb2a8f.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...35750008f8.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8dd5757441.jpg inside the connecting rods are covered with this kind of crust that seems made of oil emulsion hardened over time Today I would like to remove the pistons from the connecting rods and search for the kindest method possible for an initial cleaning of the pistons and cylinders. Someone suggested me to use coke...not the zero, the original one :) |
you ought to contact Porsche Restoration (classic-service@porsche.de) with pics and story
never know what type of sponsorship they might be interested in funding. probably WD40.com also, they might throw some money your way for advertising. not coca-cola though, unlikely they'd want people to know the caustic nature of their product. |
Hot ultrasonic bath will be a good start for the pistons ... three are two circlips I the pistons that secure the axel . |
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Question for everyone with knowledge: Would dry-ice blasting harm any of the parts? I had an undercarriage done and it did no damage, including rubber parts and paint.
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Originally Posted by Churchill
(Post 15563023)
damn, I don’t have enough space... |
It was not easy to disconnect the pistons from the connecting rods: the crankshaft could not make a complete revolution, due to the presence of debris that blocked the gears of the distribution.
However, in the end I managed to do it, with a lot of elbow grease: once I learned how to do it, the clips that fix the connecting rod pins also came off quite easily. Doing the work alone, I preferred to place the engine block in vertical position, tying the three parts (crankshaft and the two parts of the engine block) to the structure, so as to prevent one of the three pieces from falling to the ground while operating in the splitting "process" (hammer and wood). In any case it's a bit like opening the easter egg ... the surprise is the crankshaft :) (or the oil pump, if you prefer) This time I do not see any signs of rust or corrosion anywhere, but I wait until tomorrow, after having cleaned the three pieces with the pressure washer. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1bfe731fd0.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ec100c36ba.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...cee0a82443.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b1b83820f3.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ab9264e31f.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...cc08279064.jpg (Feeling Happy) |
Good work mate.....
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definitely the dirtiest project I have ever seen on this forum! Awesome work!
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Originally Posted by erikerik
(Post 15568116)
definitely the dirtiest project I have ever seen on this forum! Awesome work!
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Little update: engine heads dismantled
Can anyone tell me how to remove the valve return springs? https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c942cc4723.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...464f69f914.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7b46886c1e.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f7c966e800.jpg Dry ice blasting will work great and not damage any parts. |
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You have to push on the part called coupelle and then the two clavettes will go out .... there is a special tool for this , but you could do that with a let’s say 20 mm socket and a hammer. To reassemble you will need the tool ! |
You can search on YouTube, there are a lot of examples . |
:corn: :cheers::thumbup:
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I would think the "limestone" as you call it is really aluminium oxide of some variety, either from oxygen in the water or electrolysis from Al-Fe battery effect either way there is less material than original |
Originally Posted by IainM
(Post 15583306)
I would think the "limestone" as you call it is really aluminium oxide of some variety, either from oxygen in the water or electrolysis from Al-Fe battery effect either way there is less material than original The body itself has it onto the painting. Strong as stone, attached to the paint, with hot water and some hard work it melts and it is visible it is made of ground, very fine ground, probably a mix of clay and silt, cementizie over the years, mating sarfaces, paradoxically protecting them. Where aluminum has produced oxide is so clear and evident, no question about that: the distribution chain left and right seats have been melt by electrolysis, becoming fragile almost as a biscuit, leaving near them a sort of deposit made of oxide. probably the metal alloy of the engine block, cylinder and cylinder heads is different. But the last word is up to experts of the grinding workshop where all the parts will be cleaned and after that evaluated. |
Originally Posted by cup997laurent
(Post 15573403)
You have to push on the part called coupelle and then the two clavettes will go out .... there is a special tool for this , but you could do that with a let’s say 20 mm socket and a hammer. To reassemble you will need the tool ! https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...07171cea7e.jpg |
Originally Posted by Endoman
(Post 15583934)
Si chiama "Compessore a molle valvole"
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...07171cea7e.jpg In maximum 10 days I will know if the cylinders and piston are in good shape or not...finger crossed. The rest looks in very good conditions. |
I wish you the best. I could be mistaken although after thirty years in the foundry industry involved in the manufacturing and inspection of parts like these and rather familiar with the rebuilding of these engines, I suspect you will be replacing a number of these parts. I agree with IainM on this one. The damage is down to the dendritic level from what I see and far less material will be present after they are cleaned especially the cam carriers, cylinders and case webs compromising the structural integrity. The oil pump and other mag parts are clearly no longer useable. They will make for interesting conversation pieces and no doubt you have learned a lot about these cars with all this work. Although the loctite 574 clearly does the job of sealing when in contact with metal and the absence of air. Amazing how well preserved some of the mating surfaces are compared to the surrounding material.
I hope I am proven wrong and look forward to the results. |
That is some courage you have my friend and thanks for sharing...can't wait to see what's next!
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I applaud your sincerity and considerable imagination but a small word of advise , why not try and get a complete running car to start with no less a RS Cup clone ! Just an idea no disrespect ! Bert |
Originally Posted by budge96
(Post 15588836)
why not try and get a complete running car to start with no less a RS Cup clone ! |
Originally Posted by budge96
(Post 15588836)
I applaud your sincerity and considerable imagination but a small word of advise , why not try and get a complete running car to start with no less a RS Cup clone ! Just an idea no disrespect ! Bert Finger crossed, frankly speaking, I know there are very few possibilities especially to recover cylinders and so also pistons. Why I should want to recover those parts if in my mind I have an RSR engine? Because if it can be, I'd like to rebuild its engine and reinstall, for the first few years of rebirth: for me this is the main way, having a matching number engine crank available. Then, of course only if this would be possible without a big investment, otherwise I would invest other way. But in my vision...perfect would be having, in the end, the lime yellow (summer because lime is not a nice expression) 993 in CUP chassis & RSR engine, AND next to it, it's original heart on a pedestal, showing itself proudly. I doubted many times about making a cup of this 993, few friends told me just to rebuild it as it was, since it is a rare colour, nice option codes list, nice history...and I was and sometimes still am considering that (like in a vicious circle), BUT every single time this happens, in the end it arrives a little voice inside of me that this is a RIBIRTH. A revenant, when it comes the luck unexpectedly to come back to life, usually does it as a completely different person. If he/she has been strong enough not to loose him/herself passing though such a mortal experience, usually he/she is a better person, more self conscious, more accurate, more focused. Quicker in thinking and able sometimes to foresee within situations thanks to experience and awareness. Stronger, in general. That's why this beautiful car, in my project, cannot be just restored. I already have in my garage the polar silver 993 you can see in the profile pic, almost totally turned into RS street version specs: I don't need another coupé. I can only drive one at a time. Stronger: seam welded chassis (as a CUP was designed) and welded Matter cage Sharper: full uniball CUP set-up Quicker in reactions: RSR powertrain I am not a collector: in my idea cars are divided by the use you do, and also 993s are car, the best cars ever made (in my personal opinion). Making of it a track car, will allow to preserve the other one in polar silver. It is a long road...like following the path of a river from its mouth to its source. |
the reality is that none of the money we spend on these cars makes sense from a logical financial perspective. If we were smart, we'd buy CPO camrys and drive them till the wheels fall off.
If this is your passion, and you got the money, the time, and the energy to do this project, go for it. Hobbies are crucial to a fulfilling life in my opinion. definitely interested to see pics from when the parts come back from cleaning |
Originally Posted by Quadcammer
the reality is that none of the money we spend on these cars makes sense from a logical financial perspective. If we were smart, we'd buy CPO camrys and drive them till the wheels fall off.
If this is your passion, and you got the money, the time, and the energy to do this project, go for it. Hobbies are crucial to a fulfilling life in my opinion. definitely interested to see pics from when the parts come back from cleaning |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15589074)
First of all, thank you for the advise: I am proceeding step by step, now the engine parts are in the cleaning shop, where after that will be expertised. Finger crossed, frankly speaking, I know there are very few possibilities especially to recover cylinders and so also pistons. Why I should want to recover those parts if in my mind I have an RSR engine? Because if it can be, I'd like to rebuild its engine and reinstall, for the first few years of rebirth: for me this is the main way, having a matching number engine crank available. Then, of course only if this would be possible without a big investment, otherwise I would invest other way. But in my vision...perfect would be having, in the end, the lime yellow (summer because lime is not a nice expression) 993 in CUP chassis & RSR engine, AND next to it, it's original heart on a pedestal, showing itself proudly. I doubted many times about making a cup of this 993, few friends told me just to rebuild it as it was, since it is a rare colour, nice option codes list, nice history...and I was and sometimes still am considering that (like in a vicious circle), BUT every single time this happens, in the end it arrives a little voice inside of me that this is a RIBIRTH. A revenant, when it comes the luck unexpectedly to come back to life, usually does it as a completely different person. If he/she has been strong enough not to loose him/herself passing though such a mortal experience, usually he/she is a better person, more self conscious, more accurate, more focused. Quicker in thinking and able sometimes to foresee within situations thanks to experience and awareness. Stronger, in general. That's why this beautiful car, in my project, cannot be just restored. I already have in my garage the polar silver 993 you can see in the profile pic, almost totally turned into RS street version specs: I don't need another coupé. I can only drive one at a time. Stronger: seam welded chassis (as a CUP was designed) and welded Matter cage Sharper: full uniball CUP set-up Quicker in reactions: RSR powertrain I am not a collector: in my idea cars are divided by the use you do, and also 993s are car, the best cars ever made (in my personal opinion). Making of it a track car, will allow to preserve the other one in polar silver. It is a long road...like following the path of a river from its mouth to its source. |
Love your philosophy and following your REBIRTH closely!
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One thing is for certain- this will be the lightest RSR ever ive heard of acid etching the tub but this takes it to a new level |
Originally Posted by IainM
(Post 15590933)
One thing is for certain- this will be the lightest RSR ever ive heard of acid etching the tub but this takes it to a new level Little update: I brought the engine parts to the shop to be cleaned with ultrasonic waves. Then the parts eventually still not clean or that will need more care (thinking about the cilinder walls) will be eventually cleaned with dry-ice system. I also opened the gearbox...wow, it stinks, what a rotten egg smell! And I am not at some thermal bath...from a certain point of view, I think a lot but much better! (this I can say right because I do not have a wife, sadly and luckily) https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4fec031e7b.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c141eb4170.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4fbf6b95d4.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...711c670d1e.jpg Is there a way, a tutorial how to open the LSD and check how are the parts inside? |
Any updates?
Andreas |
Originally Posted by AOW162435
(Post 15754930)
Any updates?
Andreas thank you for asking, Andreas in fact for some things there are several good novelties, for others instead they are stopped at the stake. Let's start with the positive notes for budget reasons I have to go mostly for used parts, which I personally evaluated piece by piece before buying them. I returned for 4 days on German soil, where I could find the magnesium parts of the engine that had corroded: - right and left distribution chain boxes and relative covers, used sockets - fan, fan seat, alternator (of a 964, they look the same, I don't know if they actually are) - 993 GT2 oil pump Then I also found: - complete set of cylinders, pistons, related pins, from a car with 50,000 km whose owner has decided to upgrade to 3.8 liter kit - engine support of the 993 RS or964/993 without A/C (also used) - 2 new front fiberglass hoods, one for the 993 silver, one reinforced for the 993 yellow - original spare part to replace the roof skin - power steering pump - then I found out who can revise the ZF power steering box not far from where I live - I should have found the cables for the entire electrical system - I found two used doors, complete with everything, including the inner lining and the windows, which I will have to decide whether to use as simple masks in the bodywork (and install two fiberglass ones) or use them - I found OEM BOSCH headlights leftovers new in European version - I found the ABS control unit with ABD, used and in perfect condition So I only need one thing in order to start with the bodywork: the Matter cage. And the best way to install it, I think is to do it once the roof is removed. About 2 weeks ago, as you guy here advised me, I sent a request for "help" to Porsche A.G. but so far I have not received any reply. I hope they answer me soon. Also because it is impossible for me to start with the body work without having not only the tubes related to the cage matter, but also the specifications for its assembly (welding, etc.) and the specifications of the reinforcements provided by the Porsche Company. The components subject to wear of the engine, that are the typical components of a total engine overhaul, will be taken new in Porsche in due time, i.e. in about 1 year. Another positive note, I found a mechanic who worked on the Porsche CUP (993, 996, 997, 991 CUP) which would have suggested me to consider installing on the engine, not its original Motronic control unit, which is able to command only one butterfly, but a control unit of another brand, a modern version, able to control 6 throttle bodies, remove all the intake system and leave the trumpets with two beautiful elliptical air filters on top of them. This sounded so racing to me...honestly I like the idea a lot. With this operation and a fine-tuning of the engine, according to him, it is possible to obtain much higher performances compared to the same 3.8 kit controlled by the motronic.Honestly again, I have no evidence about it. For budget reasons, but also for respecting the concept of matching number, I do not want its original monoblock to be reworked to house 109mm Mahle cylinders, because the car would totally lose its originality. So the first step will be to restore the 3.6 engine, installing a different engine management: later and more calmly, the RSR 3.8-liter engine construction project and related gearbox will start. And the 3,6 liter engine will proudly show itself on a pedestal next to the car I am currently looking for bearings to repair the gearbox, bearings whose cost at the official network is really very very high (I would say almost absurd) and for this reason I'm looking for equivalent OEM spare parts. I am in no hurry and the money I would save could be used to buy other things in the future. There is only one negative note: I don't have the Matter cage and Installation specifications yet. It is not my intention to install other types and therefore the start of bodywork is strictly bound to finding the parts and information necessary for their installation. I believe a good part of the budget will go in the purchase of the 5 circular instruments and the braking system, which at least initially will remain its original (slim carrera), but with ABS-ABD, because lighter and already sufficiently sized to stop a car of 1370kg, so more than enough for a car that will weigh at least 200kg less and is not intended to be involved in endurance races, but only in some track days. it's amazing how many parts are still in such good shape: the chassis doesn't have the slightest sign of corrosion. the tinsmith advised me, once the shell was replaced and all the panels were welded, to coat the inside of the tubes with a sort of spray wax that could protect them from rust for the days to come. Soon I will definitely have to dismantle the electrical system, taking care to mark the position within the fuse box of each of the bundles of wires that come together. Once this is done, the last parts to be removed from the car will be the braking system lines, and at that point the car will be totally naked. It seems like an entire life has passed since I bought the car, it doesn't seem like only eight months have passed. if I can speak sincerely, it doesn't seem possible to me to do what I'm doing. But it is so ... and at the same time it seems to me the most natural thing in the world. (but from the feedback of my friends I realize that it is anything but). Despite the economic commitment that is important enough for me, but above all of mental energy, dedicating myself to this project does not tire me out at all, nor have I lost the slightest enthusiasm or feel tired or changed my mind. (I find myself asking it sometimes and I am surprised every time I get the answer, which is always the same) Indeed, the more I go forward and acquire informations, the more everything seems clearer and simpler. Even the people I talk to, the people from whom I bought the parts, I see it from how they interact, compared to the beginning, they understand they have in front of a person aware of knowing what is looking for. This simplifies a lot, but really a lot the entire experience, it gains respect due to knowledge. sometimes it even happened to me to explain to the seller which other parts he had in stock :) it was so nice and funny time :) |
Superb progress!
I just had my gearbox rebuilt, and the bearing prices are absurd even outside the dealer network. However, I was advised that one should look at the origin of the bearings - the cheapest ones are not worth using. |
Originally Posted by ed devinney
(Post 15755103)
Superb progress!
I just had my gearbox rebuilt, and the bearing prices are absurd even outside the dealer network. However, I was advised that one should look at the origin of the bearings - the cheapest ones are not worth using. Another part I will need for sure are the Ventilstößel = idraulic valve tappet https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1bb679ef13.jpg regarding this, having to change all 12 of them, I wondered what the differences were: on the PET one version is indicated without any size (probably because it is the standard one), then one with size 1 and finally another with size 2. Can anyone tell me what it means and for what uses they were differentiated? |
When the valves are re-seated in the heads, they sit lower and there is insufficient clearance to the rockers
to solve this, Porsche makes shorter lifters at least this is what I was told |
Matter cage parts are supposed to be only available at Matter . Some years ago I found a complete Matter cage in pieces at Freisinger in Karlsruhe, may be he have one more ? Otherwise I saw a copy of this cage for sale in a US shop ( don’t remember who ...)
if you need pics and measurements of my parts ask me . |
Thank you Laurent for your availability,
I think I might need a lot of pictures of the details and measures. I wrote to Porsche, but in case they not answer, I will try again. I also wrote to Rothsport yesterday, but so far I recieved no answer Hi, looking for an original 993 Matter Cage, I saw your product https://www.rothsport.com/Products/C...l-Cage-Kit.htmand I was asking myself if your Cage is an exact copy of the original one, which means, same width, same size of the tube walls, same bending, length of each, shape and same material.What I am looking for is either the original one, or its perfect copy.Looking forward for your reply, Kind regards I also wrote to Freisinger-Motorsport, and they have been very kind and precise: if I were living in Germany, it would be probably a very good choice, but I must think about it. The fact is, talking about it with people working in the car bodywork sector, listening to their arguments, I should proceed as follow: - put all the new parts together, working with reinforcement weldings as it was designed by Porsche for the 993 CUP, put everything together, using a dime for the 993; - bring the body to specialized personnel to install the cage - bring the car to a place where to clean it all with water sandblasting just before taking it to the body shop where the car will be protected with anti-rust where necessary, painted and where glass, profiles, etc. will be reassembled Now, the facts I ask myself are: I must remove the roof skin because it is damaged - that's why I bought a new one - and I have to make the cage painted same color as the body, but I must assume it is impossible to properly paint it while it is already installed, especially right under the roof skin. I think they must make it painted before, except junctions point, and then, after having welded it, painted the junctions. And probably, installing it with the roof removed from its place, could make all the installation easier. (I don't know, just guessing). Then a key point of moving to Germany to have the entire bodywork done would be if it were possible getting the car approved by TUV, so that I would have the Cage onto the vehicle registration document and accordingly to UE lows, moving it back to Italy, I could then use it for small transfers on the road as well, or during commemorations of historical competitions. The recovery work is continuing non stop: exactly this week end the "gearbox specialist" will physically give me the bearings I must change, so that using the codes on them, through a friend (sharing our same passion for 993) who works in the field of spare parts for truck gearboxess, maybe I can find the OEM equivalents. Let's see... On the intake / injection side, in the first step, I would like to put the independent fixed-length trumpets and the electronic ignition, with 6 independent butterflies: my mechanic told me that in america there is a whole market concerning this kind of products. Can someone suggest me products that are valid and at a cost sustainable from human beings? (I'm not a sheikh) |
I know that Ninemeister in the UK do an ITB conversion probably with Motec ECU you are probably looking at $15000 plus. Time to go digging for oil
.Secondo me non e neccessario, tenga il originale. |
Subscribed..! What an awe inspiring Project..
I thought I had it bad when my Engine [literally] fell on to the Floor and all the Rubbers & Plastics fell off.. |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15766591)
On the intake / injection side, in the first step, I would like to put the independent fixed-length trumpets and the electronic ignition, with 6 independent butterflies: my mechanic told me that in america there is a whole market concerning this kind of products.
Can someone suggest me products that are valid and at a cost sustainable from human beings? (I'm not a sheikh) |
I have saved something that was a challenge, but this is a whole new level of commitment. That being said, many long hood 1964-73 era cars have been restored from much worse. A different challenge to be sure with the somewhat modern electronics of the 993. You also have the advantage of being in Italy which has, as I understand it, excellent body men (tin smiths as you refer to them). Have you started on the body? Since I am not that great of a body man, but a better wrench turner, I would start with the body and get it sorted as, to me, that would be the biggest challenge.
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Originally Posted by evilfij
(Post 15772453)
I have saved something that was a challenge, but this is a whole new level of commitment. That being said, many long hood 1964-73 era cars have been restored from much worse. A different challenge to be sure with the somewhat modern electronics of the 993. You also have the advantage of being in Italy which has, as I understand it, excellent body men (tin smiths as you refer to them). Have you started on the body? Since I am not that great of a body man, but a better wrench turner, I would start with the body and get it sorted as, to me, that would be the biggest challenge.
I would like you all to know a fact: I am not an expert, I am not a sort of GURU, if someone would ever come to me in the future saying I am, I would convince him/her I am not, and probably this person would think I am too humble and reductive about myself, but believe me, I am not. I just recently discovered the beauty and the pleasure of driving the 993 quickly, and probably you would start smiling at me if I say I think to be more a talented driver than a guru or an expert. Why I say this? Because of feedbacks ex drivers in drivinghability gave to me, and because of the pleasure and relaxing feeling it gives to me while I am doing it, like when you are doing something you are born for. Am I fast? It seems yes. Am I enough fast? I don’t know. (I think the answer to this sentence could be always right or always wrong depending on the rivals you find on your “walk”and also because of the concept that stays behind the adjective “enough”...like someone saying, I love you too much...too much, what, she is going to answer :) )). I am doing this just for pleasure, I have no sponsors, I have no history, I have a different life than a driver’s life. I simply think many of you who really enjoy tracking their cars on their own risk found themselves in the same situation as me a couple years ago: they were late to start even thinking to do it properly with a team but they wouldn’t renounce to that pleasure once they tried it. Owning a wonderful silver 993 that is going to be turned in the underbody exactly into RS specs in a couple of weeks, for both street and track oriented use, this car I accidentally saw again in such different conditions, to me represents what I already said, but the motivation originally came from assuming I don’t want to destroy the other 993, its conditions, tracking it, without being really built for it. If you want to ski outside the ski slopes, you use different skiis...giant slalom has its ski, super others, down hill other ones. I am not a collector, but I think I understood that compromises aren’t so good, especially if the opportunity of doing other ways presents itself to you spontaneously...someone would say instead of an opportunity this represents a “lago di sangue” (in Italian, which means that your blood will be totally out of you, making a small lake of blood), because I could have chosen to buy a 996 or 997 cup versions, perfectly track oriented and right now available, without waiting or wasting time. But I cannot deny the idea and the process of building it is also giving me so much pleasure. Then going for a 997 cup would mean I would like to try myself as a driver on the circuit, which could eventually still be possible, but not because I want it so deperately: there are so many drivers decades younger than me and more talented for sure. Again, I think if this has to happen, it will happen, indipendently from my will. I don’t need to demonstrate something to myself, like putting myself in the situation on purpose. So the point it is not, like many friends say, your chrono will be 10 seconds better on a 991 CUP...but my answer to them is: do you really think driving a 991 is harder than driving a 993? And the pleasure is only in having a very satisfying chrono, for you? Is an investment in chrono response? I think it is a matter of psychology, the reason why a person gains satisfaction from the very inside: all motivations are equally right, because they are all about the individuality of people. I think is probably a matter (not the Cage?) of satisfaction to costs equation...for me satisfaction doesn’t depend on the chrono, but it is about the feelings and feedbacks related to the experience, for other people it is a matter of seeing their surname on top of the chrono list. But then I tell myself: are you winning something? If you are not a professional driver, the real race is between you and the chrono, it is a challenge and a related pleasure of trying yourself against the track conditions and having pleasure simply doing it. (To me) This is my point in thinking it is natural to build such a 993: then, from the few I saw so far, a fast driver on a 993 is fast on any other 911 come after it, because yes, they are quicker, but also way easier to drive. So it is not just a matter of affection to this special version, which is true, it is beautiful to me, but also that I consider it as a very good training experience (and full of feedbacks in comparison to much more modern car that are quicker, but like if they were disconnected from the ground). Yesterday I was at Mugello Circuit to speak briefly with my mechanic who gave me the bearings from the gearbox I am going to replace hopefully as much as possible with OEM ones, and we talked about the project as well. He showed me the cages of 991 and 997, how different they are, he made very reasonable considerations reguarding the stiffness of a track car, he showed me points where the 991 have flexion and even slight cracks, and he clearly said that such a project has a value if you are able to get it omologated, otherwise it would be not a street nor a track car, for the traffic regulations. and at the same time he clearly told me that the 993 and following models, weren’t that stiff at all as I can imagine, they were not full of weldings everywhere, but only where it was strictly necessary: “don’t think to do a better job welding all the profiles” he told me. so yes, it is crucial the body work, evilfil But I'm not the kind of person who easily gives up So while looking for THE way to do it, which is only one to me - ie reproducing same job as it was in 95/96/7/98, otherwise I will be forced to make it in steps, which is clearly not my first choice - I look around for other things like engine, intake solutions, 6 independent trampets, with or without plenum, for example, such nice doubts having to solve. In comparison finding a solution for the welded Matter Cage is making me a bit nervous, because of its evident uncertainty. |
Little upgrade
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...69559ad61d.jpg How do I have to disassemble this part? https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...42c417bc5d.jpg Is there a way to remove this box in a, let's say, gentle way? https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d072d2640a.jpg I am considering proceeding as follows with the bodywork: - total water stripping; - galvanization in the electrolytic bath of the rear sides (which are not galvanized) before their assembly/welding; - assembly of the roof, side panels and reinforcement welds (in this regard, is anyone in possession of the specifications with which the bodies of the RS, GT2, CUP were made?); - subsequently, galvanizing the entire car in an electrolytic bath: I imagine that zinc reacts first electrolytically with the parts of the body to bare steel and only later with the parts already galvanized, or am I wrong? Any suggestions? |
^^^^ That appears to be the air bag control unit. IIRC they have a special nut that is one direction only. My best guess considering the condition would be to try some vice grips or they make some stripped nut extractors that might work.
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Even after all that time at the bottom of a Lake, that damned Carpet Glue still survived..!! :roflmao:
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4ae233469a.jpg |
If you can post a picture of the fastener, I might be able to help. If they are the ones that break off once installed, I use a dremel with a little cut off wheel to cut a slit and then use a flathead screw driver. At least that is what I do on ignition locks (no, I don’t steal cars, but I do restore and repair them).
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What type of zinc bath? Around here, the commercial galvanizers (galvanizers in UK engine) use molten zinc, not a thin coating so you would not want to do that to a body shell. I use these guys for Land Rover parts (chassis and bulkheads) and the coating is very thick and the temps warp sheet metal. Maybe in Europe there are places that do a factory style galvanized coating? I would like to see more pictures, but from the looks of it the body did not suffer much from sitting at the bottom of the lake (probably because it was galvanized when new). I would strip it chemically and then just prime and paint as i would think a lot of the factory galvanizing is still intact.
By the way, did I mention, more pics please. ;) |
I would do the rothsport cage. It looks very similar to the matter cage (to my eyes) and the price is right. Buying the extra straight length locally should save on shipping costs as well. Do you have a local welder who does roll cages?
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As far as far as the SRS airbag module you can chisel the bolt heads in reverse and it will come right out , not certain about re galvanizing an already
galvanized shell, possibly have the car media blasted then etch prime doubt any of the process would dusturnb the original galvanizing done at the factory. if of course you have open rusty areas maybe some regalvanizing by area...just an idea, Bert
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15815408)
Little upgrade
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...69559ad61d.jpg How do I have to disassemble this part? https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...42c417bc5d.jpg Is there a way to remove this box in a, let's say, gentle way? https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d072d2640a.jpg I am considering proceeding as follows with the bodywork: - total water stripping; - galvanization in the electrolytic bath of the rear sides (which are not galvanized) before their assembly/welding; - assembly of the roof, side panels and reinforcement welds (in this regard, is anyone in possession of the specifications with which the bodies of the RS, GT2, CUP were made?); - subsequently, galvanizing the entire car in an electrolytic bath: I imagine that zinc reacts first electrolytically with the parts of the body to bare steel and only later with the parts already galvanized, or am I wrong? Any suggestions? |
I believe this is the nut we are speaking of.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b31623ba66.jpg So the chisel should make easy work of it. |
Good luck with your silty project. (pun intended)
Amazing how some engine and gearbox internals have survived corrosion. Hope you don't give up on the way because this is sure going to be a long term adventure. |
Originally Posted by kingroon
(Post 15815422)
Even after all that time at the bottom of a Lake, that damned Carpet Glue still survived..!! :roflmao:
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4ae233469a.jpg That ugly stuff will survive the apocalypse ... :rolleyes: Unbelievable project..... crazy, silly, irrational, ridiculous, bizarre ... in one word ... FANTASTIC |
Originally Posted by Endoman
(Post 15767131)
I know that Ninemeister in the UK do an ITB conversion probably with Motec ECU you are probably looking at $15000 plus. Time to go digging for oil
.Secondo me non e neccessario, tenga il originale. the idea is to install 6 independent throttle bodies, the 997 GT3 RS intake, plus cams (still have to understand which ones work better), valves (no idea which ones are better), more efficient injectors (if recommended), but without changing the displacement. I thought I had it bad when my Engine [literally] fell on to the Floor and all the Rubbers & Plastics fell off.. By the way, did I mention, more pics please. I must confess, coming back home and seeing the shape of the chassis in the darkness day by day made it in some way sort of a pleasure...it is like having a sculpture in the garden...after some time if you remove it, you see/feel the absence of something. it is something like the growth of a baby...there is no coming back. Ok, in English I am totally unable to express this thought, but even if damaged, seeing that yellow silty stuff in the parking place, believe it or not, it is nice... Right now I am trying to understand if the conic pair of the 997 gt3 can be used into the 993 gearbox |
You could probably get something like this
on there- I've used these many times with very good luck- it "bites" around the edge and just grips a few companies make them, you can probably find them at a good tool shop in Italy, or online- they are also made by Craftsman.
|
Originally Posted by Coleman
(Post 15839330)
You could probably get something like this extractor on there- I've used these many times with very good luck- it "bites" around the edge and just grips a few companies make them, you can probably find them at a good tool shop in Italy, or online- they are also made by Craftsman.
Now I am asking myself which would be the best engine block to start from for building an RSR engine in a very modern way, I mean, using the best Porsche parts, not necessarily from the 993 only, but maybe some coming from 996 GT3 (or CUP), 997 GT3 (or CUP). I have no idea about the compatibility of mutual assembly ... for example, if I found a 964 engine block is it okay? The monobloc of the 964 can accommodate the crankshaft and titanium connecting rods of the GT3? Are there alternatives less expensive than the original RSR head that had the valve crossings with different inclination? I certainly don't need these parts right now, but I have to plan the work, in order to search the parts, and figure out what the best solution is. For now I have seen that the 3 length airbox of the 997 GT3 RS is an excellent solution to be coupled with more aggressive Cammes and ITB and a new electronic control unit. Very soon the tinsmith should start the bodywork |
Small technical question/advice: does anyone know if the ring and pinion of the 997 gt3 is compatible/exchangeable with the 993 one?
I ask this, because I am facing the restoring of the gearbox and LSD and I found these parts from a 997 gt3 donor for a fair price and almost as new. |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15940840)
Small technical question/advice: does anyone know if the ring and pinion of the 997 gt3 is compatible/exchangeable with the 993 one?
I ask this, because I am facing the restoring of the gearbox and LSD and I found these parts from a 997 gt3 donor for a fair price and almost as new. BTW, I''ve thought that my 996 conversion is silly, but your's is completely nuts! :thumbup: :D Good luck!!! |
Originally Posted by pete95zhn
(Post 15944252)
I have 997 GT3 Cup LSD in my 996 turbo transmission, so at least there R&P dimensions and main shaft are the same. Then again both transmissions are G50 derivatives like 993's...so most likely yes. But with big BUT. Compare pics & part numbers from the PET. When I converted my 996 turbo transmission to 996/7 GT2/Cup specs, I found out that many internal parts (bearings, synchros etc) have numbers starting even from 928.
BTW, I''ve thought that my 996 conversion is silly, but your's is completely nuts! :thumbup: :D Good luck!!! "little" update. In the end I think I will proceed in a completely different way, paying much closer attention to my wallet. The fact is that at Porsche dealer they offer gearbox bearings at prices that make the very concept of ridicule seems ridiculous. I don't think that to FAG or TIMKEN or SKF those bearings can cost more than 5 euros each and in fact when these companies produce for AUDI or BMW or MERCEDES (all very low brands compared to porsche, and with engines and gearboxes of very small displacement!) those bearings are available at a retail price of around 15-20 euros each, an acceptable fair price, this for same codes less than one letter bearing and magically the cost in Porsche, if you are lucky, becomes 250/300 euros each! Basically the gears hardware cost 10 and the bearing set 5?!? And they don't joke, they are serious. Will those bearings eventually be gold-plated ?! The good news is that the LSD discs are in perfect condition: only the satellites of the differential will perhaps be changed. So, frankly, I think I will opt for option B, which is to remove the G50.20 gearbox of the currently working 993 silver gearbox, disassemble the long ratios gears and install the new G50.21 gears (not taken in Porsche, but for less than half the price from a manufacturer of racing gears, more durable, less friction, etc.). I must confess that, although this is not my field of work, whenever Porsche practices certain prices, it is inevitable to consider how much space their approach leaves to other realities that want to make a difference, not just in terms of quality , but also of costs. But when you try to dispute the exorbitant price, the storekeeper at the Porsche Dealer barricades behind the phrase: "eh, you know, at Porsche they really spend a lot in quality control" Oh yes?!? Really?!? It is a pity that having to compare myself with the purchase of several parts from official Porsche retailers in order to carry out this project (and God knows how many more I will have to buy in the coming years), I am not going to list the number of times that these parts were anything but that perfect. Then I want to say, FAG, TIMKEN, SKF, are premium manufacturers that already have very stringent quality controls ... basically those pieces will probably be blessed by Porsche A.G. with holy spray water and this actually has to have a cost ... heck, a lever with a multiplier factor of 15 to 20. With such a blessing, those pieces are certainly destined to end up in heaven ... or mold on the shelf. Not only did Porsche not respond to a single email of mine, but it seems to be in front of the classic Florentine citizen, who, since 700 years ago some of his illustrious fellow citizen had made "the difference" with his thought and/or his artworks, for this reason he feels in his right to feel himself equally illustrious. Chest swollen with pride, but at least will he know what he is talking about? Then you ask him where the "sommo poeta" (a very easy question, frankly speaking) is buried and he can't even answer you. Well, I'd like to do the same with a few Porsche executives who fill their mouths with marketing marketing and probably also tomato souce pasta. No comment. |
I do understand you!
The prices for Porsche parts have gone from expencive too crazy during the last 10 years. As if the Porsche do not want us to keep them running and 100% Porsche...... |
Originally Posted by cup997laurent
(Post 15762064)
Matter cage parts are supposed to be only available at Matter . Some years ago I found a complete Matter cage in pieces at Freisinger in Karlsruhe, may be he have one more ? Otherwise I saw a copy of this cage for sale in a US shop ( don’t remember who ...)
if you need pics and measurements of my parts ask me . Do you have any views on Matter Motorsport in France ? I am thinking of shipping a car to them for a 993 GT2 cage - they seem pretty reasonable. Could be an option for this project too. Cheers. |
Freisinger still have the cage, they also have the specs, the right man and they offer the complete service of installing and reinforcing the body shell. They take the specs and drawings of Matter Cage for themselves.
If I were living in germany maybe I'd consider let them do all the body work, but I am not. I realised I must go step by step: first of all I must make the bodywork in the very right way, as it was originally built. After that, I will carefully consider the eventuality of adding the Matter Cage, the proper way. I saw the Matter Cage itself weights 35 kgs, plus the reinforcements and the weldings: the cage itself is not omoogated anymore, since it was designed to respect the security requirements of the 90's, and we aren't anymore in the nineties. So, it is always possible to build a perfect copy of a 993 CUP/RSR, but for the Race Rules, it wouldn't be admitted to racing. At the same time for the italian laws, it wouldn't be admitted as a street car. So, if the car is intended to be used on the track for race purpose, it is needed an omologated cage for the standards of today. If, as I think it will be, I will use it not for racing, but for tracking the car for trackday, time attack, a removable cage at the place of rear seats will be lighter and much safer than without any cage. I am considering to build something like the cage I saw here for sale, but built in Titanium to save weight. But that moment for now is far from the things I must do. Limoncella STEP 1 will be streetable, probably a bit lighter than a CUP, approximately same power as the endurance RSR engine (350hp) and maybe something else. |
Have you had any quotes from Freisinger ? I'm told that they are reassuringly expensive :D although he did supply my RS steering rack for reasonable money. You make a good point about FIA regs that were in period but mine will be a track day car only so less of a concern.
I'm in the UK but I'm considering shipping mine to France as it would still work out cheaper when compared to the UK. This is what I'm looking at for mine: http://www.matter-motorsport.fr/porsche-993-gt2-243 Cheers. |
I recently had a 993 gearbox rebuilt and understand the pain in the wallet, but don't let the pain drive you too far to the other side. Regardless of cost of bearings, you'll be putting a lot of time and € into this gearbox, so worth doing it right. There has been a lot of wisdom/experience shared here over the years - for instance, it's common to upgrade the weak shift spindle/reversing lever shaft to the Motorsports/GTGears piece to avoid future problems.
There are several threads here on RL that have very useful information about sourcing gearbox bearings and parts, including these: https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...-bearings.html https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...-supercup.html Apparently the Porsche parts aren't better than aftermarket anymore, although I think the 4-point bearings are Porsche-only. Good luck, this is a great project! |
Many, or actually most of G50/96/97 bearings are only available from Porsche. Special measurements etc. If you manage to get them as Motorsports parts (ie through a race team), cost will be significantly lower than through Porsche Center's parts counter.
|
Originally Posted by pete95zhn
(Post 15964183)
Many, or actually most of G50/96/97 bearings are only available from Porsche. Special measurements etc. If you manage to get them as Motorsports parts (ie through a race team), cost will be significantly lower than through Porsche Center's parts counter.
For the moment, in order to make the silver 993 a better car i am planning to reuse its bearings and LSD together with g50.21 gear ratio, seeing if any italian producer of racing gear parts understand that offering those gears for +or - half of what they cost in Porsche could open a large opportunity of business. If I find the very right producer, my intention is to replicate same shape and treatment of the original parts I found inside the gearbox, for even stronger and more durable parts. For the limoncella project, I took some infos around here and online and I noticed that many go immediately for increasing the displacement, maybe because the RS and RSR were 3.8 litres. I have more in my mind the fact that the 997 GT3mk1 (RS as well) was 3,6 litres, and had 415 up. What I think is that 3,6 litres are not few at all. If I had to choose, I'd rather prefer a 997 gt3 krankshaft and pankl titanium connecting rod, instead of investing the same money onto 3,8 RSR Mahle cilinders and pistons. What I think makes the very difference is the fact the increase in hp is achieved by rpm increase, with more or less same torque at a bit higher rpm range. But as first step, I am not going to change the engine that much, it would be easy to get some torque and hp by displacement increase: I'd rather like to have the 993 3,6 engine made and assembled (balanced) as a racing engine, leaving it with its main components, except probably valves, camshafts, ITB, and eventually (advices?!?) intake manifolds other than the black plastic one of the 272 up version, but at least the varioram version or the '7 GT3 RS intake version. I'd call it a refining process: I am considering not to install the power steering pump, the mechanic is telling that for track use only I could also renounce to brake assistance (but I think I will leave it at its place), and I would offer a much better braking feeling on the track. What I think is that, if a 3,6 varioram, x pipe, no cat, primary exhaust 3/1, with engine map and standard motronic one can be easily around 300 hp without opening the engine, adding a modern engine management, 12 single coils, ITB, new cams, larger lighter valves, no hydraulic steering assistance, and a racing hand made assembly using less friction elements, should probably bring the hp around 330/340hp. Of course what Ninemeister did with its 4.0 litres custom engineered engine is impressive (I heard of about 420 usable hp), and maybe that could the second step, but already 330 good boys are a nice noticeable amount onto a 1080kgs 993. My point is how sharp and crisp the engine is going to become. Now it's time for the body shop to do the most important job, but any advice about the configuration of the engine is very welcome! |
If you have not come across these posts, it may be worth a read: http://performancedevelopments.com/technical-articles/
|
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15951606)
So, if the car is intended to be used on the track for race purpose, it is needed an omologated cage for the standards of today.
If, as I think it will be, I will use it not for racing, but for tracking the car for trackday, time attack, a removable cage at the place of rear seats will be lighter and much safer than without any cage. I am considering to build something like the cage I saw here for sale, but built in Titanium to save weight. However, consider a HEIGO bolt in rollbar as a cage is not really necessary. That's more than sufficient for tracking the car, as flipping over is very unlikely at trackdays as such thing happens mostly in races during contact to other cars, which really should not happen at trackdays. My HEIGO after height adjustments due to sunroof delete (two horizontal bars still missing) I added also the two 1/2 cross bars. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...06776e2096.jpg |
Originally Posted by Holger3.2
(Post 15974601)
As you said, you're far away from this stage.
However, consider a HEIGO bolt in rollbar as a cage is not really necessary. That's more than sufficient for tracking the car, as flipping over is very unlikely at trackdays as such thing happens mostly in races during contact to other cars, which really should not happen at trackdays. My HEIGO after height adjustments due to sunroof delete (two horizontal bars still missing) I added also the two 1/2 cross bars. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...06776e2096.jpg but for now, being ready to start the bodywork is already something unexpected and in the meanwhile having to deal with such hard choices, like maintaining the original displacement, original crank, and so on, or changing them is something I must carefully consider, because sooner or later will arrive also the engine rebuild time. I found a used and complete variooram intake system for a good price, so I was considering if it could be a good job to install onto the step 1 that kind of intake or go straight for the 7 GT3 intake to be used on both the steps of the engine (I don’t need to have two intakes, I am going for two engines, but the car is one). The mechanic was suggesting me to use the Clubsport rear spoiler adding two ducts (one for each side) and create a sort of air box in order to make the engine breath fresher air from outside the engine bay. Did anyone already go this way? The idea of having single coils for each plug and a multiple throttle body modern engine management what could I expect would potentially bring in terms of HP? |
Hi , I don’t know the Italian rules but in France if you race in historic series you can have the original matter cage , you don’t need a modern cage . Do you think that the owner of a real historic 993 gt2 will change the cage and loose the value of his car ?
I race the french gt classic series with my 993 gt2 clone which have a matter cage in since 2004 , and I have no problems with the scrutinering . |
Originally Posted by Talat
(Post 15951461)
Laurent,
Do you have any views on Matter Motorsport in France ? I am thinking of shipping a car to them for a 993 GT2 cage - they seem pretty reasonable. Could be an option for this project too. Cheers. the price was € 4000.00 without taxes for the cage and € 1400.00 for the right body reinforcement. i don’t know if Freisinger is cheaper. Matter will give an FIA homologation with the cage . 5 years ago the price was 2000.00 !!! I should have done this at that time...... |
Originally Posted by cup997laurent
(Post 15992016)
I met the Matter guys at rétromobile in February this year and they sent me an offer for my 964 rsr clone .
the price was € 4000.00 without taxes for the cage and € 1400.00 for the right body reinforcement. i don’t know if Freisinger is cheaper. Matter will give an FIA homologation with the cage . 5 years ago the price was 2000.00 !!! I should have done this at that time...... |
Originally Posted by cup997laurent
(Post 15992016)
I met the Matter guys at rétromobile in February this year and they sent me an offer for my 964 rsr clone .
the price was € 4000.00 without taxes for the cage and € 1400.00 for the right body reinforcement. i don’t know if Freisinger is cheaper. Matter will give an FIA homologation with the cage . 5 years ago the price was 2000.00 !!! I should have done this at that time...... and where do they do the job? What do you mean fia homologation? just the cage or the car? because if the car is a clone, its original homologation is street car, not race. For a perfect done job, as I suppose they are going to do, and a racing homologation of the car, the price is expensive, but acceptable. |
Originally Posted by cup997laurent
(Post 15992003)
Hi , I don’t know the Italian rules but in France if you race in historic series you can have the original matter cage , you don’t need a modern cage . Do you think that the owner of a real historic 993 gt2 will change the cage and loose the value of his car ?
I race the french gt classic series with my 993 gt2 clone which have a matter cage in since 2004 , and I have no problems with the scrutinering . I understand what you mean, but an original gt2 received cage and homolation at that time, when certain prescriptions had to be obeyed, now it is 2019, the prescriptions have changed, and if you want a fia homologated cage, it must respect the security requirements of now. But if you want to make a replica, without any homologation, you can still copy the cage as it was prescripted at that times, even though it is not guilty anymore for true racing, but just for historic events. this is what I understood talking with a few insiders of motorsport teams. they all told me, doing a replica of the matter, I will get an unuseful clone, not an homologated CUP clone, nor an homologated street car (in Italy it is illegal everything that is not corresponding the original homologation). for instance, I can streep the interiors and enjoy removing the highlands glue, remove the air conditioning, the heating system, use homologated wheels, and it is still street homologated and in case of any accident the insurance will pay, but if I change the brakes, or if I install not homologated (for the street) seats, or if I update the suspension the car doesn't respect anymore it's original homologation and it should pass the test at vehicle registration if I want the car to be perfectly street legal. It sucks, when I saw all those american programs where they customise cars and they sell them without any legal problem at all, and how quick is the way they make all the burocracy. Here everything, even breathing has a burocracy problem inside: and then the politicians fake to ask themselves why when the world economy has a nice restart after the crisis with an average growth of 2,5%, we "grow" just the 0,2%. shame on us as a folk... dura lex, sed lex. |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15992294)
good to know!
and where do they do the job? What do you mean fia homologation? just the cage or the car? because if the car is a clone, its original homologation is street car, not race. For a perfect done job, as I suppose they are going to do, and a racing homologation of the car, the price is expensive, but acceptable. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...90e35abb4.jpeg Against 991 cups and 997 gt3r .. in France it’s not permitted to road drive a car with a welded cage anyway. Even a 993 rs ngt is not legal. So the homologation is the car’s one , for example I have the matter homologation documents for the gt2 cage and the sticker from Matter with the numbers .... |
The cage will be exactly the same as the one homologated for the 993 cup / rsr or gt2 by the fia . For historic races it’s enough, we have only the FFSA technical passport for the car and the cage . I even race my 993 gt2 in the Porsche motorsport series with that technical passport What I am going to do, as first step, is to rebuild the body as perfectly brand new (in the fact, better than brand new, because it will be slightly stiffer, just a bit not to create unwonted critical concentration of stress): the car will be totally naked inside, so if later I will decide to add a full welded matter cage, the right way, with all the reinforcements requested, it will be always possible. But as first step will be naked and the idea I have is installing a cage on the rear, not welded, as light as possible and strong as steel, probably titanium made. I saw the RSR/CUP empty weight is 1120 kgs, I would like to stay below 1100 kgs. Now, they call it pitting...I had to buy new cross members... https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ce6269ef50.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1a5c5c2c0c.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c94aa93c0b.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6128fdbdd0.jpg The suspension setting will be all on uniball, I am going to re-use the side members - adding the solid mounts without tilt kit - and the front A-arms I took off from the silver 993: the top mounts will be uniball but something different than the original ones, suspensions are going to be racing/track 2 or 3 way adjustable. Bodywork I think it is the most important part, the base on which to base all the following job to be done. I already found/bought the five instruments, the dashboard (without leather, very much racing and far less expensive), both the seat belts original homologated Porsche, the ABS/ABD control unit, the ABS/ABD distribution unit, the tank, which is the larger version I don't know how many liters it contains, and all its related parts are in excellent condition, as are the fuel supply and return lines, while the lines of the braking system will have to buy new ones. the electrical system is incredibly in excellent condition, I don't know how it was possible, but I'm seriously thinking of recovering it: it will take a lot of painstaking work, it will take time and attention. Certainly it would be more convenient and less dispersive to find one used, but the idea of being able to reuse parts that were originally present in the car when it left the factory fascinates me. I have to buy the additional radiator (left side) that was present on the CUP / RSR, which, if I understand correctly, is identical to the one on the right, and also the lines to connect the two radiators. The brake calipers will be carefully disassembled and overhauled: I don't think it needs more braking power, the car originally weights 1370 kgs and will be 300kgs less. Then, not having to do endurance, I much prefer to leave its standard system, which is for sure lighter than the one on the CUP. I'm seriously thinking of not putting any servo assistance on the steering or even on the brake, in order to save some more torque at all rpms. Perhaps I have found a very serious supplier who can supply me with all the G50.21 gears at a reasonable price, which I will initially install on the 993 silver. As for the bearings, nothing new for now, they cost way to much, so that, rather than being robbed, I would probably go other way. Time brings advice. P.S. I am not at all throwing the parts I am not going to reuse away, I will probably stick them to the wall (or wherever), as a souvenir, to remind limoncella of its history |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15996765)
P.S. I am not at all throwing the parts I am not going to reuse away, I will probably stick them to the wall (or wherever), as a souvenir, to remind limoncella of its history
|
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15996765)
the electrical system is incredibly in excellent condition, I don't know how it was possible, but I'm seriously thinking of recovering it: |
Originally Posted by PAOLOP
(Post 15998887)
I think it's a big mistake; an acquaintance of mine has made the same considerations as you, and now, one year later, he cannot get out of a series of problems. Kroon Wires and rest assured
|
Originally Posted by PAOLOP
(Post 15998887)
I think it's a big mistake; an acquaintance of mine has made the same considerations as you, and now, one year later, he cannot get out of a series of problems. Kroon Wires and rest assured
being a cup clone, the wires are for lights, instruments and few other components, and of course I must check the wire conditions, if it is possible to recover them, otherwise I change them |
A 993 cup has no steering assistance , I have an electric pump for mine , remember that if you want to go without assisted steering you will have to change the steering rack that is not the same . This is a most expansive part than an electric pump .
regarding the brakes the best is to find a complete 993 turbo or c4 or rs system with the high pressure pump and abs.... |
Originally Posted by cup997laurent
(Post 16001831)
A 993 cup has no steering assistance , I have an electric pump for mine , remember that if you want to go without assisted steering you will have to change the steering rack that is not the same . This is a most expansive part than an electric pump .
regarding the brakes the best is to find a complete 993 turbo or c4 or rs system with the high pressure pump and abs.... The car is going to weight less than a 3,2, will have only a bit larger front tires, so I don't think this would be a problem. Concerning the braking system, at first I don't think I will install the RS braking calipers and rotors, and I doubt the high pressure pump will play a role, but I am probably wrong. Tracking the silver 993 with standard brakes with PAGID yellow on the front and Toyo R888R tyres, the braking is simply amazing: the car is going to be aroung 1180 kgs soon (fiberglass hood and few other things), the yellow one is going to be 100 kgs less, which is almost 10% less. I understand the CUP and RSR had to race, so they just didn't need braking power, but also constant braking performance and anti fading qualities for an entire race of 20 rounds or more. In my case, to make a perfect copy I had to install the CUP braking system, and maybe I'll do it in 10 years, but for tracking for 2 to 5 pushing rounds and then cooling down, the standard braking system I think is powerful and consistent enough...and at least 10/15 kgs lighter...ehm, lightness never hurts. The wheels as well, the original center locking magnesium ones, aren't lighter than the OZ alleggerita that, if in the meanwhile I don't find something lighter and with same resistance, they will be the wheels of the yellow car as they are already used onto the silver one with satisfaction, I must say. I would like to create a very performing car, not just a copy of something existed in the 95. It would be amazing to own and drive an original 993 CUP, but it is not currently in my possibilities. I dream of the moment when the body of the car will come back fully painted from the body shop, with the glasses, the doors, the bumpers and the perfectly mounted, sparkling and winking headlights. I Imagine when I can climb over it, surrounded everywhere by the yellow of the body shell and turn the key to start ... In my intentions, step 1 will be something like a mystical attempt ... my nickname comes from the distant '99 when the magazine EVO nominated Car of the year the 996 GT3 mk1 ... a black devil coming off a hill and moving slightly off the ground ... .it was a 3.6 ... liquid cooled ... but the monobloc is the same. He had about 360 hp ... If the RS / CUP / RSR are the maximum expression of the 964 monoblock in the 3.8-liter configuration, my intention, I know, it may seem absurd being aware that from a 3.8 it is easier to get horses and torque, it is to create a very powerful 3.6 naturally aspirated and air cooled engine, with a nice driveability, using most of the parts of the standard M64/05 engine, except valves, cammes, ITB, airbox, coils and engine management, just refining what's inside the motor block. If a M64/21 Engine has more or less 286 hp, same engine perfect balanced with freer exhaust I think should be approximately, without changing anything inside around 300/305 hp (at least). This with a Motronic single throttle body management. Adding ITB, single coils, new engine management ( I have to buy one in any case), larger and lighter valves, more aggressive cammes, maybe could add other 15/20 or maybe a bit more hp. In the U.S. a 3,6 liter engine I know that sounds small: in Europe such a displacement is considered HUGE, and here it is not immediate at all thinking that the problem of gaining horse power must be necessairly solved adding more displacement, building something bigger: let's call it, the european (or maybe just the italian) way?!? 330 hp onto a 1080kgs car I think is worth a try...and reasonably the car will also pollute much less. An engine designed to last as a road engine, not an engine to be serviced every 5000 km, but designed and assembled like a racing engine. Otherway, I am considering to go immediately for step 2, adding GT3 crank shaft, rods, cylinder heads, the way RSR are made, achieving higher rpms to get more hp, but having a quick look around it is very much more expensive than the step 1. |
Little update:
I'vebeen lucky finding 2 European headlight surplus stock, the RS steering column, plus hydraulic steering rack. I am still looking for the gearbox bearing at a reasonable price. In the meanwhile I am considering what to do for the STEP 1 of the engine and I accidentally found 2 GT2 EVO cams for a good price, so my doubt now is: are they good/equivalent to the CUP/ RSR cams or they cannot be used since they weredesigned for a turbo engine? I didn't want to change the engine very much with STEP 1, my intention is to use the 3,6 cylinders&pistons, but change just the top of the engine, ie valves, spring, cams, mechanic rocker arms, then adapt the ITB and the intake of '7 GT3 RS, plus new engine management and install a coil for each spark plug. The biggest question is: is there anyone who knows if it is possible to adapt/use the normal heads with the gt2 EVO cams and/or where can I find the RSR heads again for a decent price? If I'd be able to find the RSR heads without bleeding it could take a bit more time, but i could decide to go straight for lets say STEP 1&1/2 installing also Pankl rods and gt3 or CUP crankshaft. If I got it right, the step 2 has to consider 3,8 cylinder&piston with deep insert for RSR valve lift, even though I already saw many talking about 4,0 liter engine, but I didn't find any info about the producer of the parts required. |
Contact @trophy for details on the 4.0 build he did in '15, he can share lots of details. You will need GT3 internals, 4.0 parts, and new ECU/wiring harness/ITBs to start with, depending on shop/machine labor, looking at 30-50k.
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More than happy to discuss what went into my build...
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More than happy to discuss what went into my build... And thank you kein ersatz, living in Ohio, but originally from Deutschland? Searching almost every day for used parts, I found this gearbox, described as 996 CUP MK1&MK2 gearbox: does anyone knows if changing the trasmission cover with the 993 one is possible to mount it on the 993? Or if it does exist some other way to do it. I saw this gearbox has very long 1st gear, which is perfect for track purpose, but not just for that: since the silver 993 I am driving weights 1170kgs it is very easy to start in 2nd gear, without any without any effort for the engine or clutch, because the engine, even in a longer gear, has to push 210 kg less. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ce98d599a5.jpg I think it is a G96.92 gearbox, because the G96.75 already has the trasmission cover similar to the one used onto the G50: hence my question, if they just change the gearbox motor mount solution, but the rest has remained the same or they re-designed most of the gearbox. |
What are the weak points in reusing the 993's crankshaft for an application that has a maximum rotation speed of 7800/8000 rpm as its target? And what if I make it rev but below 7000?
and what are the differences/advantages of using a gt3 crankshaft compared to that of the 993, if it is possible, it has a sense using it? what about the connecting rods? Are the original ones reliable for a 7000 application onto a 3,6 liter? Or I saw the titan Pankl rods, do they fit the 993 crank shaft? From what I could read so far a significant improvement would be represented by a revised mechanical rocker arms layout, like for instance using the ones proposed by nine meister. I don't understand why they don’t share at least a price lists to get an idea about the purchase price of their parts, it is all so mistery, but wasn’t it mechanic? BY THE WAY, for the so called STEP 1 of the engine rebuild, I will have to maintain the car matching number, which means the engine block can not be machined to get the bigger Mahle cylinders and pistons. this offers the opportunity of making a tuning of its original 3,6 liter: from what I could resemble so far, the main point of making a powerful upgrade to this engine is to make it rev higher, let’s say almost 8000 rpm. to get to it, the 3,6 piston heads must be shaped with valves sockets like the 3,8 rsr heads are, to avoid any interference while valves open and increase valve lift, and the distribution must be lighter and adapted to operate in a reliable way with much sportier cams profiles. Then, from what I understood so far, the 993 RSR back in 98, with electronics of 98, with material technology of 98, was able to output 410 hp in its sprint configuration and 370 in the endurance, with engine heads with 46/42 I/E doors, so why do I read posts where it is declared that RSR heads were not properly designed? I read they should have had smaller ports, like the 964 ones, and re-designed straighter for higher velocity, less load loss. I figured me out that, at high revs, with inlet valve open with piston going up, the air inlet inertia allows a sort of “overfeed” making enter air inside the combustion chamber winning the piston pressure, and this turbo charging alike effect is more pronounced if the speed of the air is higher and ports are smaller. Very probably, also the inlet port/inlet valve size RATIO plays a very important role: I am not into engine build, but fluid dynamics theory is same in all engineering fields. So the main point I think is, having a big air inlet reserve, with high speed inertia, smaller straight ports to make speed higher and remain so, to get a sort of boost effect. IF all of that is correct, the RS and RSR heads are the worst for such an application, while the 993, varioram or not, with larger RSR machined valves and maybe also machined straighter port channels are a decent compromise: on the other side the air intake dimensioning is probably with such modified heads equally important. I am considering of using a 997 GT3 RS air intake and ITB set up, with single coils together with an engine management able to manage it all. My idea is to use same air intake set up for both STEP 1 and STEP 2: i cannot build 2 STEP 2, one 3,6 and the other one 3,8/3,9 liter, it doesn’t make any sense to me and it would be way tooo much expensive. thats why I am asking myself if with all modifications described to the distribution, to cylinder heads and pistons, could it be possible to make the step 1 rev less and reuse its crank shaft and maybe connecting rods. Thinking about crank shaft and rods to be used on a not that high revving engine: where are the limits of 993 crank shaft? Assuming I would like not to change it in the step 1, where in the bandwidth its limits would become significant? |
I am pricing up a 3.8 rebuild at the moment - you need to decide what kind of power output you want. I'm quite happy with something in the 350-360bhp ballpark and so I'm told this can be achievable with a rev limit set to around 7000. At 7000 I don't need rods but I'll change them to be safe and I will retain my crank (964). If I was looking at more revs and power then I'd be looking at a GT3 crank. In the grand scheme of things, the GT3 crank and oil pump isn't that expensive - I think it's around £3k so would probably be worth the investment if going for big power.
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Originally Posted by Talat
(Post 16148813)
I am pricing up a 3.8 rebuild at the moment - you need to decide what kind of power output you want. I'm quite happy with something in the 350-360bhp ballpark and so I'm told this can be achievable with a rev limit set to around 7000. At 7000 I don't need rods but I'll change them to be safe and I will retain my crank (964). If I was looking at more revs and power then I'd be looking at a GT3 crank. In the grand scheme of things, the GT3 crank and oil pump isn't that expensive - I think it's around £3k so would probably be worth the investment if going for big power.
these info are very useful: the fact is i am going to build 2 engines, STEP 1 in my idea is vitaminic engine re-build, if i can, Id like to use its original crank, crank shaft, rods,3 ,6 cilinders, heads (revising them), improved intake distribution (mechanical rocker arms, spings, larger valves if needed, etc.) plus air intake and engine management upgrade to be used on the STEP 2, which will benefit of many brand new parts. So basically I mainly need new shaped pistons with RSR alike valve sockets, to allow bigger valve lift and opening time. |
yesterday I cleaned the plastic parts of the intake manifolds from the mud and crust: to my surprise the throttle body is still perfectly working.
Facing pieces that have been able to hold out for 4 and a half years under water, frankly the first impulse is to put them back on the car. If I would decide to proceed Keeping the following components original: Block crankshaft connecting rods cylinders heads intake throttle body ignition and replace with new parts: piston top 3.6 with RSR valve slots new camshafts (maybe ninemeister?) new mechanical distribution (I think of ninemeister) new valves, springs and sping hats With this configuration the first two doubts that come to me concern the drivability at low revving: is it strictly necessary to mount also the ITB? In this case, could be an option using six trumpets? And then: or, without ITB, such a configuration with a single throttle body, but sporty cams, is still manageable from the 272 horsepower Motronic? Would using the Varioram's Motronic be possible and/or better? in case it was necessary to use the ITB, at that point the control unit isn't a question anymore, because in any case it would be necessary to buy a new one to guide 6 butterflies and at that point everything is much simpler, more expensive and would look much less original. In my opinion, opening the rear hood and seeing the engine with its black intake, looking like a 272 hp engine perfectly original from outside, on a resurrected car, has its reason. The later on, when I will take out the engine to exchange it with the STEP 2, next to the car will proudly show itself perfectly originally looking. |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16139571)
Thank you very much Trophy, you don't have to say it twice: you have got mail :icon107:
And thank you kein ersatz, living in Ohio, but originally from Deutschland? Searching almost every day for used parts, I found this gearbox, described as 996 CUP MK1&MK2 gearbox: does anyone knows if changing the trasmission cover with the 993 one is possible to mount it on the 993? Or if it does exist some other way to do it. I saw this gearbox has very long 1st gear, which is perfect for track purpose, but not just for that: since the silver 993 I am driving weights 1170kgs it is very easy to start in 2nd gear, without any without any effort for the engine or clutch, because the engine, even in a longer gear, has to push 210 kg less. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ce98d599a5.jpg I think it is a G96.92 gearbox, because the G96.75 already has the trasmission cover similar to the one used onto the G50: hence my question, if they just change the gearbox motor mount solution, but the rest has remained the same or they re-designed most of the gearbox. Have not read of anyone doing a 996 Gbox in a 993, suspect there are multiple mount point alignment issues to be addressed / confirmed. Will axel shafts align? "Common" thinking seems to go with regearing and adding robustness to the G50 clutch/syncros, not swapping the Gbox out. But, someone has to be the first though ;-) I do not recall Guntherwerks or other bespoke (open checkbook) 993 builds swapping out the g50, but then someone has stuffed a v8 in a 911... With enough money and time, engineering is possible for almost anything. The GS/billet/carbonfiber parts thread is an amazing story of what can be possible. |
I found a complete 964 engine: on this forum I read that the 964 heads, having smaller I/E ports, would be ideal for high power applications, can anyone support this?
I also read it is necessary to adapt them to the mahle 3,8/3,9 cilinders. Concerning the crank case, is the 964 more or less appropriate/robust than that of the 993s, for applications that go towards high rpm? For me now there are two ways: one consist in buying the crankcase and the distribution seats, add then GT3 crank shaft, connecting rods, new heads, etc, the other one is to buy this whole 964 engine, remove the components that do not interest me, reuse the heads (after having properly worked them), sell those parts I don't need it and insert what I should put up even in the first case. The engine in question has 36000km. ignorance is an ugly beast |
"whoever stops is lost"
I'm already looking for a engine block 964. In this regard, I wonder what are the differences between the codes 964.101.112/111.0R 964.101.112/111.1R 964.101.112/111.2R 964.101.112/111.3R 964.101.112/111.4R ....... And what are the codes of a genuine 3,8 RS engine block |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16156948)
"whoever stops is lost"
I'm already looking for a engine block 964. In this regard, I wonder what are the differences between the codes 964.101.112/111.0R 964.101.112/111.1R 964.101.112/111.2R 964.101.112/111.3R 964.101.112/111.4R ....... And what are the codes of a genuine 3,8 RS engine block 964.101.111.1R & 964.101.111.2R are the 94 964 turbo case halves 964.101.112.1R & 964.101.112.2R are the 964 N/A case halves 964.101.111.3R & 964.101.111.4R are the 993 Turbo case halves 964.101.112.3R & 964.101.112.4R are the 993 N/A case halves Not sure what the .0R case half is. Although these are the casting numbers and not the actual part numbers AFAIK. You might reach out to Catorce he seems to have a bunch lying around he might be able to confirm. As far as using one or the other there are a number of differences including additional filter and oiling for the 993 hydraulic lifters, The webs are different thickness IIRC the 993 has smaller webs allowing you to use more of the later 996GT3 tri-metal bearings and parts with less machining/. There are early and late 964 engines. There was a TSB issued changing the heads and cylinders to the later design with crush rings. The break off point was serial number 62M06837 for the M64.01, 5 speed engines and 62M52758 for the M64.02 tiptronic engine. These should have . different design head which was improved in the later engines preventing the warping issues. Again Catorce probably has a spread sheet on this that would be more specific. Also locating a 993 block is probably easier than a 964 which is becoming very hard to find lately but good luck. The 996 transaxle should bolt up to any of these cases however the nose cone is very different and mounts into the car far differently. It also would require changing the linkages and other work AFAIK. Never tried it but I would assume the nose cone would be a tight fit in a 993 tub and might need some tub modifications to make it work. As far as the rear suspension castings I hope you don't plan to use those. They are riddled with gross corrosion to a point that they would almost certainly fail under hard driving especially with uniballs. |
Again Catorce probably has a spread sheet on this that would be more specific. Also locating a 993 block is probably easier than a 964 which is becoming very hard to find lately but good luck. I am finding almost ONLY 964 blocks and only 964 complete engines, one with very low kms (30.000) almost brand new, but what is the point buying an entire engine if I only need its block? This pictures are from the same engine block. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b400951444.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f3302feddb.jpg |
I have never seen an 0R case half before.
I am interested in hearing what you find out about it. Might be an early 94-95 case the US spec 993 96-98 I have seen are all like my 96 .03/.04R case halves. This my 96 993 engine half I am installing a 964 Tip engine today I will check the numbering and post some pics if it helps later. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...fcbb512b13.jpg |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16156948)
"whoever stops is lost"
I'm already looking for a engine block 964. In this regard, I wonder what are the differences between the codes 964.101.112/111.0R 964.101.112/111.1R 964.101.112/111.2R 964.101.112/111.3R 964.101.112/111.4R ....... And what are the codes of a genuine 3,8 RS engine block |
So memory did not serve me well. The cases with 111 are left side and 112 are right.
Here is the US spec 91 late build engine numbers https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3c5383273.jpeg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...afc9f7c96.jpeg Intersecting my 96 with matching case numbering uses a.2R & .3 R Now you have me wondering what the differences are. My case halves do have the same 4 digit code marking both halves https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e5e8d4a3e.jpeg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...489f39c38.jpeg |
checking right now the PET where now I realise no distinction is made, as usually is, between right and left side: the right side and the left side of the engine block are designated with the same identical part number (in the PET), which, among other things, is different from the one phyisically stamped on the two halves.
This is a mistery, but I bet someone here already know how to solve the enigma. |
Does it play a significant role a DLC coating regarding crankshaft, connecting rod pins, rocker shafts? Whatelse could be give benefits if DLF coated?
And how many Nm torque and/or HP could result from the removal of the power steering assistance pump? The break off point was serial number 62M06837 for the M64.01, 5 speed engines and 62M52758 for the M64.02 tiptronic engine. |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16157262)
checking right now the PET where now I realise no distinction is made, as usually is, between right and left side: the right side and the left side of the engine block are designated with the same identical part number (in the PET), which, among other things, is different from the one phyisically stamped on the two halves.
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Looking for many things at the same time, I was just wondering what would be the best set to install onto a CUP or RSR tribute
I was really thinking to install a set of BBS E88, but then I saw a set of Magnesium E28 installed on a true 993 RSR and...were the E28 the original rsr wheels? What were the sizes, front 9,5j and rear 11j? Is it possible in the front there was a set of 265 tyres and in the rear a set of 295? |
I finally managed to find a perfectly working 993 VR Euro specs Motronic engine management.
The Motronic is equipped with cartronic inside. Now my question is, how can I manage to make the original remote control operate and communicate with the alarm control unit which is inside the motronic? Is there a code registered inside the Motronic I must use to make remote control unit and cartronic communicate? The other question is: what are the differences between its original European 95 pre-varioram motronic and a 96 version? The connectors are both 55 pins, are the EURO SPECS pre varioram and varioram the same same inside as well, apart chip programming? Or do they differ significantly? |
This is the 55 pin Pre Varioram Motronic as it looks right now before the cleaning
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...60d86d9744.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0703f8d6e9.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c149bb6796.jpg I think this is the version without immobilizer inside the Motronic: I say this because I have another module that is outside and it is named "Wegfahrsperre", which literally means "immobilizer". What product would you suggest to use in order to dissolve/remove all the silt that has settled hardening on the motherboard? |
It's a 95 because you can see that the EEPROM chip which has timing curves etc. can be changed out- the next versions with the immobilizers have the EEPROM soldered to the board.. I give it 40 /60% chance of running again.. If it got wet when the car was running, there's a good chance it may be no longer functional.. Good question on cleaning it, maybe a solvent-based electrical cleaner..? There's another current thread about a Rennlister who has an immobilizer work-around... It's quite complicated..
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at university I should have studied archeology ...
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...bb8396ee16.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d3076f3e91.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3a83b68a33.jpg ABS-ABD Control Unit https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9bffbe3dde.jpg Alarm Control Unit I seriously doubt the DME Motronic and the Immobilizer Contro Unit can be recovered, while the ABS one (with ABD) and the alarm one in my opinion have good chance of being able to work and / or be restarted by replacing only few smc |
I don't know if anyone can answer this question: is the wheel fastening system with the 993 CUP / RSR / GT2 EVO center lock the same as the first 996 CUP?
Is there a place to buy it, used in good condition or new? Same thing for the enlargements and sideskirts with which to modify the 993 slim into RSR: does anyone have experience in this regard? From what I've seen on the internet, what makes the difference between a good result and an unwatchable thing must be first the quality of the parts and, secondly, the skill of the body shop. Is there a post where one can see where to make cuts on the bodywork? |
I buy my 993 gt2 parts at Hahn gfk in Germany , may be you can find the rsr parts here .
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Start on the ECAs with some IPA and a soft brush and go from there. With the saltwater for so long, I wouldn't put a lot of effort into this as unless the boards were conformal coated (very few are, but I can't tell from the pictures) they're likely trashed.
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I wrote them, but they don't produce the 993 RSR widening kit, only the gt2. If I do it, it must be exactly the same as the original kit: cutting the fenders is already a trauma, don't want to think if the result is going to be bad looking. |
Interesting to see the PCB and SMC components survive the pickling in the fresh water more than the aluminum suspension parts. Great work!
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Originally Posted by samurai_k
(Post 16184858)
Interesting to see the PCB and SMC components survive the pickling in the fresh water more than the aluminum suspension parts. Great work!
I now found a GT3 used crankshaft in perfect conditions, whose part number is 996 021 102 91 What must be verified to prevent the possibility of buying a crankshaft with defects? What are the advantages of using this crankshaft on a 993 engine with standard 3,6 liter pistons, that is going to run at maximum 6900/7000 rpm? Does it eventually exist a 3,6 piston kit with seats into the piston top that enable to use a higher valve lift? I also found the distribution wheel that was used on the 959: my supplier recommends using it, because it would be lighter than that used on 964 and 993, but with the same geometric characteristics. With the crankshaft of the GT3 do I have to use other connecting rods or can I use the same ones as the 993? What benefits from the possible use of other connecting rods? I am also going to install the mechanical rocker arms of the 964: in this regard, what kind of advantages can I get from the DLC treatment of the cam rocker shafts? And what other parts can make sense to treat DLC? Crankshaft? Distribution camshafts? Piston pins? |
Wow just found this thread what a project gotta say EVERY yellow car is worth saving.good luck with your efforts
Rich https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0471f7945.jpeg |
speaking aloud ... if the 997 GT3 RS 4.0 with indirect injection had 500 hp at 8250 rpm, a 993 4.0 basically sharing same crankcase, using same rank shaft, same lightweight connecting rods, ITB, same GT3RS intake, motorsport injectors, why should have less than 450hp?
I get voices from the “control room” that the difficulty with the 964 and 993 rsr engines was to make them run above 7500 rpm, or those who made them run higher, inevitably saw everything break, due to the too high weight of the pistons. So I guess the nodal point for such a powerful, but also reliable application, I don't think should pass only through redesigned and billet heads, but above all using pistons able to allow rotation speeds up to almost 9000 rpm without going to affect reliability. And I also believe that due to the high rotation speeds, wall friction reduction between the cylinder and piston is essential. is there anyone here that has already tried the over 8000rpm way? Do already exist pistons fur such an application? I saw many use steel rods, but someone uses panel ti rods, which I suppose must be lighter...why then steel rods for such an application? |
^^^ The advantages of a water cooled vs air-cooled engine. Heat is the killer.
There are many components available today that didn't exist back then. The 996 Cup cars received Ti connecting rods, lightened and balanced crank water jackets to keep down the heat and eventually hydraulic lifters in 2001. |
Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16192123)
^^^ The advantages of a water cooled vs air-cooled engine. Heat is the killer.
There are many components available today that didn't exist back then. The 996 Cup cars received Ti connecting rods, lightened and balanced crank water jackets to keep down the heat and eventually hydraulic lifters in 2001. For the moment, this week end I took home the varioram intake, plus the 2 cup rear-view mirrors and the odometer, so I'm pretty happy. Then I went to the vintage car fair in Padua, where I could observe and photograph very closely the details of the bodywork of the 993 GT2, coming directly from the Porsche Museum. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f5ab962e6f.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b4beebbd9c.jpg there is a big difference between seeing a 993 gt2 in picture, especially in light colors and seeing it live: the connecting surfaces of the enlargements in photos seem much more pronounced than live. I must say with those riveted enlargements it is really a sneaky tiger cub ... |
The chap working on my GT2 rep has all the moulds for the RSR kit - he used to race these cars in period. I think he can reproduce them in fibreglass, carbon or carbon kevlar - if you still need a kit then please let me know and I'll get him to price up a kit when I see him at the weekend.
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Originally Posted by Talat
(Post 16195118)
The chap working on my GT2 rep has all the moulds for the RSR kit - he used to race these cars in period. I think he can reproduce them in fibreglass, carbon or carbon kevlar - if you still need a kit then please let me know and I'll get him to price up a kit when I see him at the weekend.
yes, I still need the kit, enlargements front and rear, plus sideskirts. I would like to get a perfect tribute of the bodyparts: even the rivets must be of the right shape and size, do you think they can be found? |
step 1 is finally taking shape: the entering week I bring all the engine parts to the mechanic shop.
After having spoken and considered many different solutions, the engine should be more or less rebuilt with the following configuration: it’ll remain 3.6 liters, retaining its original cylinders, pistons, connecting rods, engine block and ignition/distributors. Instead an upgrade will be made using 993 gt2 oil pump, varioram intake (and its European DME control unit), mechanical 964 rocker arms, single mass flywheel and sportier cam shafts. Any advice regarding which is better between the CUP 964.102.239.81 and RS 964.102.239.31 Single Mass Flywheel? Pros, cons? Between the two there is more or less 1,4kgs weight difference. Advice regarding which camshafts would suit better such a configuration, considering the pistons will remain standard and that valves, springs, etc. could be bought new? Does it make sense investing money here? Some details remain to be defined: frankly speaking I don’t know what to expect as final result, ignoring how much a single or all multiple choices would change it. The intention is to build a long lasting engine, able to run in a very reliable way up to 7000rpm, not crazy high I know, but I would like to work it out the best possible, optimizing the parts I already have. For example, the heads are the ones of the 272cv version, does it make sense to enlarge the valve seats and consequently use larger and lighter valves? what are the problems possibly related to such a choice? Does it make sense to handle DLC rocker arms, camshafts, crankshaft? what kind of power gain should be to expect as a consequence of friction reduction? Side effects? the other aspect that I asked myself is the following: there is any modification to be done to the lubrication circuit in order to use the mechanical rocker arms instead of its hydraulic lifters? Right now I'm looking for the dme motor cable, the engine wiring harness and the aspects regarding the electrical system. |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 15521196)
I live 20kms from Florence and my first name is Paolo. I go to casole d'elsa each year and sometimes with the porsche, really great fun to drive there. About the flywheel I got the RS flywheel, bt must warn you, because the wheel is so light you probaly need to change the motor management. Because of the low weight when you brake the engine whil cut off. |
I go to casole d'elsa each year and sometimes with the porsche If you wish I can also organize a small welcoming committee :thumbsup: ....every occasion is good to get these wonderful creatures out of their garage. In the lasat days, together with Electrical System, DME engine management cable, etc. I am also looking for the right combination of Flywheel+Clutch Disc. I learned only now that there are 2 versions available of Lightweight Flywheel, one that weights approx. 4,4 kgs an even lighter one that weights 3,0 kgs https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ecbb9c41e3.jpg lightest one (996 CUP?) https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...50f8ada615.jpg lighter (M003) There are also different kind of clutch discs https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b3314c484c.jpg Sachs Performance, 4 bigger spings, organic, damped https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...24c93f7b62.jpg Sachs Racing, sintered https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...566378229a.jpg Sachs Performance, 6 smaller springs, organic, damped The LimeYellow 993 will be 95% used on the track, but I need to arrive there without using a trailer, at least until when there will be installed the first engine step, so what I think is that probably the sintered should be too much unusable on the street, but I don't know the difference between the 2 other damped versions. does anyone know? |
I did some research on this topic as I replaced the FW and clutch as well.
There is a slightly heavier LWFW as well by Rauch for completeness. https://www.rauchandspiegel.com/prod...ro-rs-version/ I ended up using the M003 LWFW version you referenced that came with my car already. Motor spools up nicely and was easy to rev match on the downshift. As for the clutch disc, the cup version of the clutch disc I have been told was like an "on and off" experience and not suitable for the street. As for the pressure plate, you can either use the standard one or the TT/GT3 one for extra clamping power. I saw you are going to keep your motor to standard bhp output, in that case the standard clutch and pressure plate is more than sufficient. The builder on my upgraded 3.8 motor put in a TT/GT3 version and I ended up keeping that setup on the refresh. The PP and clutch are standard parts from Sachs so there are non porsche p/n so you can save some EUR. If you go with the TT/GT3 setup, it has a heavier clutch pedal feel as a consequence, which I addressed with upgrading the slave cylinder with a MPL unit https://www.mpl-tuningparts.de/english/porsche.html Here are some good reference threads: https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...-your-lwf.html https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...wfw-setup.html |
Thank you very much Samurai for your advices!
I still wonder what's the difference between the two Sachs Performance damped cluch discs... I saw you are going to keep your motor to standard bhp output Upgrading the slave cylinder what kind of benefits might give? I found also a brake booster (the 993 turbo/RS one) for a very good price, does it play any role adding it onto the standard braking system? I was thinking adding more available pressure wouldn't be bad. |
Here are the part numbers as promised for the TT/GT3 clutch and pressure plate
Clutch disc 996-116-015-34 (replaces: 964-116-011-30, 964-116-011-31, 964-116-011-61, 996-116-015-30, 996-116-015-31, 996-116-015-32), alternate number: (Sachs) 1878 005 625 Pressure plate 964-116-028-53 - alternate number: (Sachs) 3082 001 522 In regards to the MPL slave upgrade, it helps with reducing the effort to push the clutch pedal to activate the clutch. I am in the middle of installing it on my transmission but you basically disassemble to the stock slave cylinder and use its parts to make a slave cylinder with the the upgraded housing and plunger by MPL. From my understanding the 993 TT clutch booster is separate from the 993TT and 993 C4S brake booster. |
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Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16211747)
if you tell me with a minimum of notice, maybe we organize ourselves for a meeting, with or without Porsche.
If you wish I can also organize a small welcoming committee :thumbsup: ....every occasion is good to get these wonderful creatures out of their garage. I wil be there in may, whit friends we come with his Quattroporte ;-), I would like to see your project we can keep an mini meeting. |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16194916)
if memory doesn't play strange jokes, I think the 959 had liquid-cooled heads ... with 4 valves, not 2...
For the moment, this week end I took home the varioram intake, plus the 2 cup rear-view mirrors and the odometer, so I'm pretty happy. Then I went to the vintage car fair in Padua, where I could observe and photograph very closely the details of the bodywork of the 993 GT2, coming directly from the Porsche Museum. there is a big difference between seeing a 993 gt2 in picture, especially in light colors and seeing it live: the connecting surfaces of the enlargements in photos seem much more pronounced than live. I must say with those riveted enlargements it is really a sneaky tiger cub ... Here are the stock plastic intakes vs the larger versions. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...91aadf0377.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...425df5b633.jpg |
They had larger plastic intakes I read that the flow inside the Varioram Intake can be optimised: do you know what is the issue about it? I was also looking for used air ducts, but on the PET I don't find the codes, and I don't know if the 964 ones are the same of the 993, if they are different but they can be used, or what is the right code to look for. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...104e0688da.jpg these 2 parts for 964 and 993 are the same? I found the codes, they are just in another place of the PET, but only after having seen them on the destroyed parts: are they magnesium or aluminum? https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...49132f214f.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6568546b56.jpg 964.106.266.1R |
3 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16213989)
I see, the RS ones are wider than the 3,6 ones : but also the intake runners are wider, not?
I read that the flow inside the Varioram Intake can be optimised: do you know what is the issue about it? -Larger plastic manifolds as Cobalt shared -Larger magnesium runners -Inside the runner it is smooth. You can get a flap sander and sand the casting marks flat for a similar effect on a standard runner -Larger intake ports on the cylinder head -Larger intake valves What is not clear if it was factory or an upgrade done by scargo who was the engine builder on mine was a larger throttle body as well as a polished throttle body "diverter" or these were additional motorsport upgrades I was chatting with another rennlister and he noticed on his standard vram manifold it didn't have it... |
They are the same parts used on the 964 and yes they are magnesium. If these were aluminum they would be in better shape. IIRC there were additional pieces added to the top of the engine to control air flow better but I can't seem to find them in the PET. I might be recalling the info from the workshop manuals.
The Magnesium intake runners are wider to match the plastic intakes. I believe the injectors sit higher as well for additional cooling although I might be thinking 964 vs 993. |
Today it has arrived this used item
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...048b6ab0a7.jpg Strange that there is no trace of this part number on the 993 PET, but everywhere on the internet it is recognised as the Turbo/Carrera 4/RS brake booster http://www.ladismantler.com/porsche-...r-99335502551/ What happens if I use this brake booster on standard narrow body 993 carrera brake calipers? If I am not mistaken, the carrera 4 used it: shouldn't there be a greater braking force available if instead of using big red calipers, I'd go on with the standard ones? The interesting question to me is the following: if the Carrera 4, with the same identical calipers as the Carrera, but with smaller pistons at the rear, needed to use this brake booster, I do not think it can be attributed to the greater weight of just 50 kg. In my opinion the reason is that the 4-wheel drive models all had the ABD as standard, a low-speed stability control system that has longer lines, i.e. more braking fluid, than the normal system. Longer lines, more volume of brake fluid to move, on cars equipped with ABD , ask higher pressure compared to the standard Carrera system without ABD, which infact does not have a brake booster. Certainly, greater pressure means better responsiveness to braking imputs: I would be interesting a comparison between the braking ability of a ROW 993 with ABD, one with and the other without a brake booster. I would expect the one with the brake booster to be more effective, like probably it was required for the carrera 4, that was expected to have more quickness in its ABD response, because if you buy a 4 you expect better ability on wet or squid surfaces. But this is just my personal idea: does anyone have a definite answer? |
1 Attachment(s)
Check this thread out...
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...e-upgrade.html This is a good pic of the other parts you need from the thread above. You will also need the pressure accumulator (the round bottle in the pic) and the electric pump (the thing that looks like a starter in the pic) that creates pressure in the brake system. Do you also have the ABS unit and is it still functional after being underwater? The pressure accumulator and pump came with the big reds system on the C4S and TT to increase the pressure beyond the standard vacuum based model the C2 and c4 has. This system is parallel to the ABS system. ABD is the 4 channel ABS system which yes the C4, C4S, and TT came standard and optional on the C2. Standard C2 ABS system came with a 3 channel setup. |
Originally Posted by samurai_k
(Post 16215920)
Check this thread out...
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...e-upgrade.html This is a good pic of the other parts you need from the thread above. You will also need the pressure accumulator (the round bottle in the pic) and the electric pump (the thing that looks like a starter in the pic) that creates pressure in the brake system. Do you also have the ABS unit and is it still functional after being underwater? The pressure accumulator and pump came with the big reds system on the C4S and TT to increase the pressure beyond the standard vacuum based model the C2 and c4 has. This system is parallel to the ABS system. ABD is the 4 channel ABS system which yes the C4, C4S, and TT came standard and optional on the C2. Standard C2 ABS system came with a 3 channel setup. yes, I’ll be searching for these parts, in the meanwhile, this is what the courier delivered to me last Friday... https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b2261c665.jpeg Meanwhile on the engine side the last missing parts are the cams, which should be sport cams, otherwise I think the brake lines will need to be completely replaced, I found the Locking system control unit, the only one missing is the alarm one. |
Originally Posted by samurai_k
(Post 16214039)
There are a few intake updates on the 3.8 RS
-Larger plastic manifolds as Cobalt shared -Larger magnesium runners -Inside the runner it is smooth. You can get a flap sander and sand the casting marks flat for a similar effect on a standard runner -Larger intake ports on the cylinder head -Larger intake valves What is not clear if it was factory or an upgrade done by scargo who was the engine builder on mine was a larger throttle body as well as a polished throttle body "diverter" or these were additional motorsport upgrades I was chatting with another rennlister and he noticed on his standard vram manifold it didn't have it... |
Few minutes ago I found for sale on the Internet this yellow ‘95 porsche 993 turbo with X50 430 ps kit from factory, and I am quite sure this couldn’t be pastel yellow, since it was available starting from m.y. 97, so this might be the only other one “limonengelb” 993 ever produced, the big sister of limoncella...I asked the seller if he can make a picture of the paint code sticker inside the luggage compartment, let’s see
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b65a33ea1.jpeg |
perhaps I should have studied archeology ... I am very passionate about the idea of recovering as much as possible of this beautiful and robust kraftsman work.
What I won't be able to reuse, like the fan, I think I'll put it in a lexan case :) I finally got 99% of the parts needed for the engine rebuild... https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ee39eb3816.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7bb9f9fc40.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e231002842.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...83cc5a82c5.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...97703e8491.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7cddc59e67.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7428e911a4.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...fd8fd939ab.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...964e6135e2.jpg |
What a great project,Skol!
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A little update:
the end of January the car is going to be transferred to the body shop, finally. The body will be water blasted, to take away the painting and put evidence onto eventual spot of rust, but at the same time avoiding to remove the original zinc plating. I finally arrived to the conclusion that in order not to lose the matching number attribute, I am going to rebuild the engine, making a compleately revision to bring it back to 0 km but using its original components, ie avoiding any kind of modification/upgrade. the same will be for the G50.21 2 gearbox In the meanwhile I found a supplier of a 964 engine from the ‘91 and I am thinking of using that engine to build the STEP 2, saving the original engine in case of any damage. A thing I would consider to do, is to install centerlock wheel hubs: considering this mod, does anyone know if the Boxster 986 or 996 front and rear wheel hubs fit the 993 wheel carrier same ay as 993 wheels hubs do? I saw there is a much larger offer of 986 and 996 used wheel hubs and they seem to use the same wheel bearing (from the Porsche PET). I recently bought a set of BBS E29 (Aluminum alloy centers) from a 996 CUP to convert them into 5 lugs at first and then to be eventually used with centerlocking system if there is anyone who can provide me a good contact here in Europe to a BBS used (or new) parts supplier, it would be very appreciated. From what I have understood so far, I must upgrade the inner barrels front to a 7,5” and rear to a 8,5”, because BBS doesn’t offer an outer barrel smaller than 1” for the front wheels. |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16369049)
From what I have understood so far, I must upgrade the inner barrels front to a 7,5” and rear to a 8,5”, because BBS doesn’t offer an outer barrel smaller than 1” for the front wheels.
https://www.fvd.net/de-en/113I7518/b...rim-75x18.html https://www.fvd.net/de-en/113I8518/b...rim-85x18.html I just have good experiences with them. |
Originally Posted by Mikke_Possu
(Post 16369815)
You might already now FVD but just in case:
https://www.fvd.net/de-en/113I7518/b...rim-75x18.html https://www.fvd.net/de-en/113I8518/b...rim-85x18.html I just have good experiences with them. I am looking for part # 7 in the picture: does anyone know where to find it? https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...862ec15a98.jpg |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16370207)
Thank you Mikke, I would like to try saving some money, so first choice is finding used parts in good condition.
I am looking for part # 7 in the picture: does anyone know where to find it? |
Originally Posted by Quadcammer
(Post 16370281)
You will need to go to Main group (MG) 1 (engine), Sub Group (SG) 3 (timing), illustration 103-15. It appears to be part number 24 and is meshed with the intermediate shaft gear, which makes sense. Finding this part separately might be challenging, but try ebay or the local parts dismantlers.
and Number 0 or Number 1 what do represent? |
no clue. could be number of gear teeth or clearances between teeth or something completely different
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Another little upgrade
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0afa559190.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0b157a3534.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4668bb7568.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2d449aed82.jpg I have been basically looking for a very well known for the quality of its work supplier for the gears and LSD here in italy, and finally I found it: premium quality gears, which means they can provide decades of experience in manufacturing gears, in my case helical gears, thermal cementation treatment and gear grinding, plus the LSD total rebuild. I am probably going to order two gear sets for my 993s, I don't know how it works in here, if I need to ask a permission to create/share a group buy, otherwise I am going to order just the minimum amount they are asking, and take the surplus G50.21 gears and main shafts in my garage. Probably it is predictable to you, but I can honestly share with you I am quite excited already at the idea to provide the G50.21 gear ratio to both my 993s! |
I have the two gears nr in nr 24 (red arrow). The top one of them is the same as nr 7.
I needed a new axel (blue arrow) and did buy part nr 24 from Porsche. Removed the new gears and used my old two gears. The two are needed too be a matchting 0 & 0 or 1 & 1. The nr is stamped on the gears. If you are intressed in two brand new gears let me know. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9796c61965.jpg |
Originally Posted by Patrik S
(Post 16372180)
I have the two gears nr in nr 24 (red arrow). The top one of them is the same as nr 7.
I needed a new axel (blue arrow) and did buy part nr 24 from Porsche. Removed the new gears and used my old two gears. The two are needed too be a matchting 0 & 0 or 1 & 1. The nr is stamped on the gears. If you are intressed in two brand new gears let me know. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9796c61965.jpg I am definitely interested in replacing the couple of gears. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3f1c5c2bbe.jpg |
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A little update regarding the electronic stuff: I don't know if this does make sense, but Patrik gave me a contact I will definitely write or call to see if there is the possibility to recover 100% the control units.
The ABS control unit looks amazingly in almost perfect condition, after having been 4,5 years under water https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ce85bd6c15.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...061c9e1a4f.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...71f717df5f.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...bce5616010.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...72116e3b05.jpg |
Little update: the mechanic is going to make an estimate for the engine part preparation for rebuild.
The engine parts look compleately undamaged and it could be simply requested a disassembly, cleaning, verification, reassembly, because the parts seem to be in very good shape, naming parts the crankshaft, the connecting rods, cylinder heads, camshafts, cams. I also finally found the shop where to make the engine block, gear block, and all the parts that need to be cleaned done. vey probably the engine rebuilt will be ended few months before the bodywork, so there will be time to place the order at the gear manufacturer, where it will take few months to have the 5 complete sets of G50.21 gears done (gears + primary shaft). I can't really wait for the parts to be here in my garage to start the engine rebuild, assisted by a very experienced (on such engines) person...the Single Mass Flywheel is already arrived, closed in its plastic anti-rust bag. During the last days I was asking myself how it must be the procedure to get the crankshaft together with the flywheel balanced. I think it is beautiful to go deeper into the mechanics of this car, especially thinking at the moment the engine will start roaring. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ae48573d4.jpeg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ad04c041e.jpeg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7b2fd2c9f.jpeg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7fa463992.jpeg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3a5f04cd3.jpeg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4c3e787bd.jpeg |
I find this thread to be fascinating.
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Little Update: very soon the body shell will be transported to the body shop, in the meantime, silverina waits confidently that the pieces lying next to her will return to live in what will be her garage playmate.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...60378da19e.jpg I don't recall which ones between the rear multilink suspension arms should be harder rubber bushing, and which ones shouldn't: would it be better to use the 85 harder rubber shore for every single arm? https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...68ade74dbb.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...82b68104f2.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d79303c912.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1a05116ca3.jpg What is the best way to remove/extract the inserts? |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16407956)
Little Update: very soon the body shell will be transported to the body shop, in the meantime, silverina waits confidently that the pieces lying next to her will return to live in what will be her garage playmate.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...60378da19e.jpg I don't recall which ones between the rear multilink suspension arms should be harder rubber bushing, and which ones shouldn't: would it be better to use the 85 harder rubber shore for every single arm? https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...68ade74dbb.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...82b68104f2.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d79303c912.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1a05116ca3.jpg What is the best way to remove/extract the inserts? |
On my build I used the same 85 shore/RS hardness prekom bushings for all of the control arms with the exception of the toe arm which I used a tie rod from ERP instead.
The control arm bushing removal and install was actually pretty easy. Check out my hotrod build blog. I documented the steps to do it without a press. |
Originally Posted by samurai_k
(Post 16410034)
On my build I used the same 85 shore/RS hardness prekom bushings for all of the control arms with the exception of the toe arm which I used a tie rod from ERP instead.
The control arm bushing removal and install was actually pretty easy. Check out my hotrod build blog. I documented the steps to do it without a press. |
Originally Posted by Tlaloc75
(Post 16410041)
Same. I used 85 on every bushing front and rear and couldn’t be happier.
Why did you use the ERP for the toe link? for easier setting and more precision? |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16410384)
So I bought 2 sets with wrong hardness, I must send them back.
Why did you use the ERP for the toe link? for easier setting and more precision? As for the front sport bushings they are 75 shore... I spoke with prekom wondering if had a set that was mixed up and they said what I had was correct and by design. |
Originally Posted by samurai_k
(Post 16410411)
I found one of my toe arm ball joint boots was ripped and as a consequence the ball joint was not in good shape. I was able to get a pair of new erp links for the same price so decided to do that.
As for the front sport bushings they are 75 shore... I spoke with prekom wondering if had a set that was mixed up and they said what I had was correct and by design. If one goes for harder rubber on the links where it should be normal, maybe it would be better to go with monoballs in place of the harder rubber bushings? the car must be a bit more track orented then the silver one, so maybe having 2 links of 5 on monoballs and adjustable could make sense. thank you Kan |
Another question, which one of these two gearbox bushings is the harder one?
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3dfd9b642d.jpg the one on the left must be the RS Bushing, the one on the right side it was sold as RS bushing as well...but they look very different https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9983f06f6d.jpg |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16411843)
Another question, which one of these two gearbox bushings is the harder one?
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3dfd9b642d.jpg the one on the left must be the RS Bushing, the one on the right side it was sold as RS bushing as well...but they look very different https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9983f06f6d.jpg |
Finally, she left, destination the coach builder shop!
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5e9df84fc2.jpg |
Great thread, looking forward to seeing more pictures.
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Good morning RLers,
can anyone indicate me the Porsche codes or where to find the belt plates (where to attach the 6 points belts) originally installed on the 964/993 CUP? On FVD I found these that are offered by Schroth, but is there still a possibility to buy the genuine Porsche plates? https://www.fvd.net/de-de/49003209R0...76mm-gelb.html Is it possible to know the exact position where they were welded? (does exist an installation manual?!) |
Today we spent some time preparing the car to be water blasted.
removed the rear windshield, the rear left side glass, we saw there is a layer of very lucid white under the yellow paint and that the pastel lime (or summer) yellow was originally painted using the pastel colour, without putting the last layer of transparent. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...572c892039.jpg Rear windshield and rear side glass removed https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b968e695f8.jpg Here is a detail of what lays under the black profile that refines the base of the rear side glass |
Having a look around while talking with friends about the specification of the 993 Turbo S, I came accross this specific detail here on RL, the reinforcement to the suspension top mount
Considering I have to rebuild the body, would it be a good idea to upgrade the car adding this reinforcement? https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6f3815527a.jpg |
I run some heavy springs and track my 964 which is the same tub essentially up front and have never had any issues. Although if you are going to do it now would be the time. I would wait and see what condition everything is in first and then decide. I am assuming you will be seam welding the tub to RS spec's?
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Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16433116)
I run some heavy springs and track my 964 which is the same tub essentially up front and have never had any issues. Although if you are going to do it now would be the time. I would wait and see what condition everything is in first and then decide. I am assuming you will be seam welding the tub to RS spec's?
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Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16433122)
This is my first option, but is there a place where to find details/schemes of the RS body spec's?
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Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16249816)
Few minutes ago I found for sale on the Internet this yellow ‘95 porsche 993 turbo with X50 430 ps kit from factory, and I am quite sure this couldn’t be pastel yellow, since it was available starting from m.y. 97, so this might be the only other one “limonengelb” 993 ever produced, the big sister of limoncella...I asked the seller if he can make a picture of the paint code sticker inside the luggage compartment, let’s see
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b65a33ea1.jpeg |
Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16433152)
The factory workshop manuals.
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Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16433152)
The factory workshop manuals.
I was asking myself if there is the possibility to recover the information regarding CUP spec body reinforcements and if it is recommendable to make such changes while not installing a full welded cage. |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16437319)
thank you very much Cobalt,
I was asking myself if there is the possibility to recover the information regarding CUP spec body reinforcements and if it is recommendable to make such changes while not installing a full welded cage. |
Originally Posted by Patrik S
(Post 16437324)
Is not this info in the documents I sent you?
now very few things are still missing: - suspension (I am looking for something 3 way adjustable, like JRZ, any advice? ) - gearbox (gears, bearings, lsd) - wiring harness - DME Motronic 272 hp (I've bought the 286 hp version, which I don't know if can be used on the 272 ho engine) I am going to install harder rubber instead of monoball, preferring a bit less precision instead of grater wear of the monobal junctions, I am going to avoid the original genuine Porsche monoball top mounts front like the devil, in that sense, which top monoball top mounts would you recommend? I am very probably going to swap the RS sways from the silver (going back to M030 sways on that) and if prices don't drop, going to swap also the RS wheels carriers. On the yellow Limoncella I am going to install the solid sub frame mounts without tilt kit as well. The body must be built the way it must be to accept the step 2 of gearing and engine. But as a first step, I am going to make an engine and gearbox rebuild to their original Porsche specs, not to loose the originality of the vehicle. Due to the traffic regulations here in Italy, I am going to install the bolt in rollbar in order to use the 6 point harness, in that sense, I am looking for the original Porsche belt mounting to be welded to the body: are they still available in Porsche? Does anyone know their part numbers? |
I am going with MCS three way canistered setup although you need a math wizard to set it up properly. Wyatt is a big help and can possibly work things out for you. I also tested the Soul X pipe exhaust on the dyno using the stock headers and mufflers. It bumped the power from 272 to 300BHP with a nice sound. I hear the fister III's are a nice addition. Most seat belt manufacturers supply you with the bolt plates to mount the harnesses.
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The moment you realize you must have passed the psychological spending threshold once was reasonably to hypothesize...
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0a0942653c.jpg They know their chicken... very very By the way, I forgot to underline the sealings and the glass in the picture are the ones from 4,5 years aging underwater :rockon: |
Is there a special procedure to unscrew the fan bolt (24), it is really hard to unscrew, I would like to avoid damaging something
I must disassemble the fun in order to treat the surfaces before painting them. Is there an how to to make the fan and fan housing exactly like they were originally? https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c85ac8332c.jpg |
IIRC it is triple square that fits in the center shaft but don't hold me to it and then you need the proper sized wrench IIRC it is 21mm again don't hold me to it but be careful not to strip out the shaft otherwise it will be difficult. Also whatever you do don't place anything between the fan blades to secure the fan otherwise you will damage or crack the blades which is a common mistake.
There is a tool in the tool kit that is supposed to be used but I am assuming tool kits are far from your mind at this point. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...26c82e43ec.jpg |
Cobalt is right, it's a triple square, and it's small so it won't take a lot of torque. Use lots of penetrating oil on the nut first, and maybe some heat shocks, too. It'll come loose eventually.
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Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16475655)
Is there a special procedure to unscrew the fan bolt (24), it is really hard to unscrew, I would like to avoid damaging something
This is what I use: https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0e69f736e2.png Andreas |
Originally Posted by AOW162435
(Post 16485087)
which one of the 2 you take firm and which one you turn? do you do it manually or using and impact wrench adding the XZN socket to it? I am soaking the screw with my favorite unlocking lubricant , then I will follow the advice to give a warm up on the bolt, hoping the dilation will do the rest. probably it is a long time it is not unscrewed, it was the fan and fan housing of a 964. is it different to the one of the 993? |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16485142)
together with a wrench.
which one of the 2 you take firm and which one you turn? do you do it manually or using and impact wrench adding the XZN socket to it? I am soaking the screw with my favorite unlocking lubricant , then I will follow the advice to give a warm up on the bolt, hoping the dilation will do the rest. probably it is a long time it is not unscrewed, it was the fan and fan housing of a 964. is it different to the one of the 993? 964 & 993 are the same. I make sure the XZN socket is completely seated in the splines, then I grasp the wrench & ratchet handle with both hands and squeeze. This has worked for me on many 993s. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...528dcc97c.jpeg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a5b623f91.jpeg Andreas |
Originally Posted by AOW162435
(Post 16485213)
964 & 993 are the same.
I make sure the XZN socket is completely seated in the splines, then I grasp the wrench & ratchet handle with both hands and squeeze. This has worked for me on many 993s. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...528dcc97c.jpeg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a5b623f91.jpeg Andreas |
Finally! A bit of heat and a bit longer lever using a tube to extend the 24 wrench and then very easy to unscrew using the fingers
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e1e96c9ee5.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...320eb3e9b0.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...472f765ea1.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ec8424b87f.jpg now I think I must buy a good extractor, any advice? I think the original colour is the camel/sand one visible only now in the very center point of the fan |
The fans were actually painted a tanish primer or base coat covered by zermatt silver. Eventually the top coating is removed and leaves the tan coloring.
It is hard to say from the pictures but the fan appears to be exhibiting a fair amount of corrosion. You should consider media blasting it and seeing if there is any corrosion damage that may warrant replacing the fan. |
Be prepared for Bad News..
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...555077a77b.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...64eb35cf92.jpg |
Originally Posted by kingroon
(Post 16486964)
Be prepared for Bad News..
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...555077a77b.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...64eb35cf92.jpg The fact everything now in everyon's mind works with this big heavy weight in background...probably having something to dedicate our time will be so meaningfull and helpful to preserve ourselves psicologically. Now I am looking forward to realise how to disassemble the intermediate shaft...and how to proper clean the servo pulley (probably sand blast?) https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...eac530eea7.jpg I must confess it...i damn like having this intermediare shaft standing up on my wood working desk...a very charming company https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3dff956672.jpg What's the way to remove the clips that fix the sprockets? Is there a specific tool? https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2821d98aa6.jpg The servo pulle was totally rost and covered of silt. Even though i dont think i will install the servo, I want to make a rebuild like if i was going to install it Really hope not to find out the fan has such a crack nor to be the one to make such a damage |
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Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16486984)
The fact everything now in everyon's mind works with this big heavy weight in background...probably having something to dedicate our time will be so meaningfull and helpful to preserve ourselves psicologically. |
Originally Posted by Kein_Ersatz
(Post 16488544)
Agreed, working with my hands on my 993 track car in the evenings is what my wife calls my “happy place”, the focus and fading of the daily angst is therapeutic and meets ”social distancing” at the same time :-)
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double ?!
sorry |
Originally Posted by Samurai
Lol. My wife said a similar thing today!
My wife just asks if i want to stay the evening with my bitches again ... :rolleyes: https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9d2c396bc7.jpg Her B'day gift .... :D |
During the last days I am taking care of the brake calipers, cleaning them and trying to make a full rebuild, the hardest part seems to be the removal of the 8 small torx screws that must be screwed up using blue loctite plus the rost and 4 and half years locking effect.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...aa5e6f32f8.jpg meanwhile it has arrived a nice parcel from a RLer living in Toronto, i must really thank you William for your availability and your enthusiasm about our lovely and expensive pets. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ddfc8aa098.jpg I am looking forward to the brake calipers rebuild as a very exciting challenge...and then every time I pass in front of the old yellow front bonnet I can't really wait for the moment I'll see the car in perfect shape again. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...93732cb200.jpg |
sorry to hijack this great thread, but when you put the fan bolt back on...how do you tork the nut to spec if you need to hold the center shaft with the triple square?
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Originally Posted by Bigwood
(Post 16528577)
sorry to hijack this great thread, but when you put the fan bolt back on...how do you tork the nut to spec if you need to hold the center shaft with the triple square?
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Originally Posted by Bigwood
(Post 16528577)
sorry to hijack this great thread, but when you put the fan bolt back on...how do you tork the nut to spec if you need to hold the center shaft with the triple square?
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A bit of heat on the TORX bolts holding the retainer plates inside of the calipers helps to break the high temp Loctite. The good news is that you don't have to open up the calipers considering that they are essentially sealed to the external environment.. Remove the pistons and if they look clean inside, there's no need to take out the big hex bolts or connecting brake tubing between the two sides of the caliper..
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Originally Posted by Coleman
(Post 16530336)
A bit of heat on the TORX bolts holding the retainer plates inside of the calipers helps to break the high temp Loctite. The good news is that you don't have to open up the calipers considering that they are essentially sealed to the external environment.. Remove the pistons and if they look clean inside, there's no need to take out the big hex bolts or connecting brake tubing between the two sides of the caliper..
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Halfway disassembling the calipers, I would really like to avoid separating the halves of each caliper, but same time I must go for some way to check if every fluid connection is working properly.
I must buy a smaller wrench to remove the 8 bolts from the rear calipers, then remove the 3 of 8 hollow screw that preferred to brake instead of unscrewing. Apart of 2 brake cylinders, the others are in good shape (this is what I'd say from a very inexperienced point of view)...the cylinder walls are perfect, also the sealings seems very good. Advices are very welcome... from what I can see, I would buy all the dust covers new, the hollow bolts and the 2 npbig cylinders of one the front caliper, plus the antivibrating, avoiding to change the cylimder sealings and to uncouple the caliper halves. I dont know if it is recommended not to change the cylinder sealings https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...773f31a6f1.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5b0c0e7c90.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b3ee5321d4.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...64531f8734.jpg In order to remove the bolts taking the brake pad guides in place I had to make a cut into the bolt head, because the torx were unusable. |
I just did the same thing with my calipers.. Usually if you have the Pistons out you would change the external piston dust seals as well as the internal pressure seal (Piston Wiper) (square O-ring)
Oh man, you broke the bleed nipple off.. Luckily it's already been drilled out for you, so you're gonna need a reverse thread extractor.. I just put these new German Stahlbus speed bleeders on my rebuilt calipers; They are stainless so even if the bleeder bodies fuse in place, you never need to take them out to bleed the system, just loosen the end part. For the seals, you need to confirm the size of your pistons, it will be something like this for a non-turbo C2: 44, 36 Front 34, 30 Rear I ordered some boots / wipers from Ohio Performance , great service and great prices; though they are not OE Brembo seals.. they are StopTech seals. Since you're in Italy, you can probably find a good deal on Brembo parts! Couple of great threads for caliper rebuilds here and here. Important to get the correct assembly grease for the pistons ... |
Originally Posted by Coleman
(Post 16539767)
I just did the same thing with my calipers.. Usually if you have the Pistons out you would change the external piston dust seals as well as the internal pressure seal (Piston Wiper) (square O-ring)
Oh man, you broke the bleed nipple off.. Luckily it's already been drilled out for you, so you're gonna need a reverse thread extractor.. I just put these new German Stahlbus speed bleeders on my rebuilt calipers; They are stainless so even if the bleeder bodies fuse in place, you never need to take them out to bleed the system, just loosen the end part. For the seals, you need to confirm the size of your pistons, it will be something like this for a non-turbo C2: 44, 36 Front 34, 30 Rear I ordered some boots / wipers from Ohio Performance , great service and great prices; though they are not OE Brembo seals.. they are StopTech seals. Since you're in Italy, you can probably find a good deal on Brembo parts! Couple of great threads for caliper rebuilds here and here. Important to get the correct assembly grease for the pistons ... meanwhile I am going to lay down the entire wiring harness so that I can clean it and check every connector carefully. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...112e56d63.jpeg |
Now it's time for a deep clean with a huge flow of wd40, a very effective and tireless partner in crime :)
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...08f12b273f.jpg I was able to remove the entire wiring harness without disconnecting the single cables from the fuse box, so now once clean I will have cleaned everything I will have to label every cable and sign its position in the fuse box and check electrical continuity and resistance of every single cable. |
Some more pics of the separated parts of the wiring
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a2c69644c8.jpg Front right end part https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f2997ab157.jpg Front left end part https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e511ee5cb1.jpg Cockpit and key cables https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...28db25a824.jpg Radio, heated rear window, rear - front fog lights, cigarette lighter https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0d32bdd328.jpg Connections to the DME - Engine interface (under driver's seat) https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9725f8f832.jpg Right door connections + Airbag Connection https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...809f173071.jpg Battery Cables https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0f1dbd56bc.jpg Rear spoiler ECU https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7edd840aad.jpg Fuse - box |
You are very welcome Paulo, can’t wait to see the finishing product with the roll bar and rs steering wheel
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16528559)
During the last days I am taking care of the brake calipers, cleaning them and trying to make a full rebuild, the hardest part seems to be the removal of the 8 small torx screws that must be screwed up using blue loctite plus the rost and 4 and half years locking effect.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...aa5e6f32f8.jpg meanwhile it has arrived a nice parcel from a RLer living in Toronto, i must really thank you William for your availability and your enthusiasm about our lovely and expensive pets. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ddfc8aa098.jpg I am looking forward to the brake calipers rebuild as a very exciting challenge...and then every time I pass in front of the old yellow front bonnet I can't really wait for the moment I'll see the car in perfect shape again. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...93732cb200.jpg |
Cleaning, cleaning, cleaning...I am using WD40 to refresh the contacts and melt away the hard to remove black sticky stuff that was evidently surrounding the small wires to make them stay all together.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e08b040acd.jpg DME 55-pins connector, which should be the same as the one for the Varioram Version, except some wire that is supposed to comand the opening and closing of the solenoids of the varioram. Does anyone knownwhere i can find out how eventually to add what is missing to make the varioram perfectly work? https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...158a1afb71.jpg Engine bay wiring harness, the one leading to the injectors, the ISV, MAF, Air Intake Temperature Sensor, I still have to understand the few black plugs what are suppose to comand. Then I checked all the contacts of the 55 pin dme cable with the multimeter, it was easy also to identify what is what by using the picture with the map showing the pin number and its function. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f6c485d979.jpg All the pins are beeping very happily. Now I am trying to understand if it is possible to find a similar picture for the 3 connectors that are bond together to the DME 55 pins plug and what is the part number of the broken plug pointed in picture https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8e83e07a6d.jpg While removing the roasted and mud parts few months ago, sometimes just a couple of time I went crazy and damaged a couple of connectors making leverage with a screwdriver (I still don't understand where I could find the patience not to cut everything away)...now I must find them to replace the damaged parts. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...07050836ca.jpg I am not going to install the air conditioning, neither the heating system, nor the box between the windshield and the tank, and I am going to install a fixed rear spoiler, but, apart of the things i am going not to install or use (the rear window is going to be lexan, like the others, except the windshield, so no heating even there), no interiors lights, no luggage compartment light or engine bay light, no electrical seats, no radio and speakers, but I would like to verify the wires as I would go for a full restoration of the original vehicle specifications, and maintain all the wiring to all these parts that I already know I am not going to use, so that in case someday I would go for a replacement, I would know the electrical part is ready and working. I am pointing a final empty weight of something between 1000 and 1050 kgs, I am going to track the car, but just for small sessions, so I don't think I would need a bigger brake system (which is at least 10kgs heavier), but I will add the RSR air intake for the front discs, to compensate the lower disc mass with a better cooling system. I am looking around also to remove the steering pump, since Patrik (thank you Patrik for your availability on the telephone, it's always a pleasure to shape our points of view about the best mods to go for) told me it is possible to gain from 5 to 10 hp and sametime move weight from rear to front. Is the steering feeling going somehow to become worse? The engine specifications will remain stock, I only have to choose weather to install the varioram or not. With a 3-1 42mm diameter primaries, x-pipe and cat bypass, it would be also nice to see if it possible to spare some more weight removing the muffler and installing 2 DB killers just after the x-pipe before arriving to the exhaust tips. Did anyone already do it? Just the removal of the muffler would provpbably save other very rear 10 kgs. |
I've finished the first wire cleaning, separated the single cables and reordered, removed the cables that connect the aircon box to the aircon unit in the dashboard, because I will remove both of them.
i know inside the aircon unit there is the control that enables the fun in the engine bay, when the engine temperature is too high. Is there some other function this control unit does? finally I can move the entire electrical system inside onto an higher and very large desk, so that I can carefully inspect, check, clean, eventually change every single wire connector and plug, without breaking my legs and neck working at the ground level. I was making also considerations regarding the empty weight I could figure out eventually to achieve: the 1130kg of the cup car included different - lighter - doors as well? because I found informations regarding the weight of the single parts that just added to a cup car for racing purpose, which were: - 42kg for the matter welded cage - 5kgs for the fire extinguisher - the cup car still had the aircon airbox between the tank and the cockpit, that weights more or less 25kgs - the braking system weight, because of bigger calipers, bigger brake discs, rs pump and RS master cylinder approximately 15kgs more than the standard vacuum boost smaller braking system - plus the cup cars had the lifting system using 3 steel cylinder welded to the chassis, I assume they must weight between 5 and 10 kgs - I also suppose the cup car still had both the muffler (only the RSR had straight pipes without cat and muffler) now, if the 1130 kg empty weight is right, removing all these stuff above from the cup car, in the end the limoncella should weight 1130-100=1030kg there would still be space for a further weight reduction removing the mufflers and installing some kind of db killer just after the x-pipe before going straight out, this would probably save other 10kg. another part that could reduce some more weight, but I dont know if the cup car already used lighter doors, would be to use carbon-kevlar doors with a steel safety bar inside. in the end I should add the 20/25 kg weight of the bolted in "das rollbar" needed to apply the 6 points belt and for safety reasons. Without it, it would be suggestive achieve an empty weight of 1000kg. Probably there would be just 10 kg wieght saving more to achieve tpsuch a very round a low weight. Maybe, it's just an hypothesis, the cup car back Ipin 95 couldn't use a lithium super light battery, whichnsjould remove other 10kg. what I was also considering was that the lighter the car will be, the stiffer also will work the rubber RS alike suspensions arm inserts, for the 3rd dynamic principle, less inertia forces, less reactions, and also less deformations...which means more precision, despite the fact it will still be on rubber, for a longer durability of the connections...so the precision should be also closer to the monoball configuration. In the next week the bodywork should finally start, I am really anxious about it and very much looking forward to see improvements as soon as possible. |
I think there was a lightweight bonnet & no sunroof.. I'm running a Voltphreaks battery, and it weighs 4.4kg. The OEM battery was around 45 pounds.. So I think you may be able to save some more weight there..
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Originally Posted by Coleman
(Post 16592866)
I think there was a lightweight bonnet & no sunroof.. I'm running a Voltphreaks battery, and it weighs 4.4kg. The OEM battery was around 45 pounds.. So I think you may be able to save some more weight there..
I am considering to add the reinforcements on the outer part of the front dome: the car will be reinforced to RS specs, this because without the welded Matter Cage, few friends told me it is not the chase to reinforce the car like the CUP version, because this would produce an imbalance in the stiffness of the frame. I must go for the stiffer version avalilable delivered without welded cage. But the reinforcements in the outher side of the front domes should work locally, providing more rigidity but also more robustness: is this a wrong thought? And Wow Coleman, saving at least 10/15 kg using such a battery, would be the perfect choice to achieve 1000kg. Finally I took the electrical system inside on a higher desk so that I can work on it refining the cleaning https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e8b63ca4ac.jpg |
The brake parts are cleaned enough to go for a full rebuild at a specialist shop.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d2ba42ac43.jpg |
In the next hours I am going to disconnect the connectors from the fuse box, it's going to be the first time someone disconnect those wires from the fuse box after the car has been built back in the beginning of the '95.
I am going to make a mask to replicate each connector position, not to go lost when I'll have to reconnect them. Meanwhile I was checking the wires of to the Niemann connector, and the cables seem to be in perfect shape, because they still have their original colours...in fact where the water arrived consistently, the color of the wire has become very very dark, very dark grey, maintaining some kind of nuance of the original colour it originally was, but one must use also a lot of imagination. So where the wires are coloured red green yellow blue, the water wasn't able to arrive. the single pins of the niemann connector are surfaced with some kind of incrustation that seems almost limestone: could someone advise me which product to immerse the whole plug in order to clean it? Perhaps a descaling product for dishwashers? https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...cd8dbd5841.jpg Taking pictures before removing a cable is pretty much advisable https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4f28509796.jpg Very coloured wires https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8ff52c83d9.jpg Before cleaning https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...49723eb54a.jpg After cleaning https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...95eb30de0c.jpg |
Great thread. Looking forward to continued progress!
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Originally Posted by Coleman
(Post 16539767)
I just did the same thing with my calipers.. Usually if you have the Pistons out you would change the external piston dust seals as well as the internal pressure seal (Piston Wiper) (square O-ring)
Oh man, you broke the bleed nipple off.. Luckily it's already been drilled out for you, so you're gonna need a reverse thread extractor.. I just put these new German Stahlbus speed bleeders on my rebuilt calipers; They are stainless so even if the bleeder bodies fuse in place, you never need to take them out to bleed the system, just loosen the end part. For the seals, you need to confirm the size of your pistons, it will be something like this for a non-turbo C2: 44, 36 Front 34, 30 Rear I ordered some boots / wipers from Ohio Performance , great service and great prices; though they are not OE Brembo seals.. they are StopTech seals. Since you're in Italy, you can probably find a good deal on Brembo parts! Couple of great threads for caliper rebuilds here and here. Important to get the correct assembly grease for the pistons ... And furthermore, is it really no air entering the system as a back-pressure effect? I am now facing the fuse box, a bit more cleaned, soaking it with WD40, and fuse connections are beeping, but a think are the fuse connections to each relais, another thing is the connections on the other side that must grant very effective electrical contact between copper connectors and each plug seat. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0f2de39ce0.jpg I am looking for some product or stuff (someone here in Italy suggested me to use wine vinegar for like 48 hours) so that those black deposits on the individual blades of each connector which I believe are essentially copper oxide, because the inside contact "ways" are still perfectly working and I don't want to find myself having a misfunction problem because of lack of contact on some connector blades. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...baed906e74.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8ddc650d3c.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d0f2f55695.jpg Does anyone here have some experience in removing the copper oxide, without demaging plastic or metal or tin soldering? |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16615302)
Does anyone here have some experience in removing the copper oxide, without demaging plastic or metal or tin soldering?
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Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16615302)
Does anyone here have some experience in removing the copper oxide, without demaging plastic or metal or tin soldering?
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Originally Posted by ToSi
(Post 16616645)
had good success with Deoxit but corrosion was minor compared to what you're dealing with -> https://caig.com/deoxit-d-series/
https://www.cfg.it/disossidante-contatti Literally traslating the product spec: "Acts up to microporosities. Eliminates dust and its ashes, carbonaceous adhesions, oxides. • Reduces twinkle, crater, electrical resistance and voltage drop of the contact. Allows you to keep it in good working order. Retrieves contacts where the resistance has risen up to 2 Mohm. • Specific for use in the electrical, electronic and telephone fields on switches, keyboards, potentiometers, rheostats, selectors, plugs, switches, remote switches. • It does not conduct, it does not abrade, it does not damage metals, graphite and most plastic materials. • Operate on non-live appliances. It also sprays upside down. Leave for a few minutes. Reapply if necessary. If a soapy patina forms, remove it with CRC Electronic Cleaner. Lubricate the moving parts again and protect them from humidity and oxidation with CRC Contact Lubricant." I think I will give this product a try. Meanwhile I am moving on with regards to the engine overhaul and consequent rebuild: the craftsman at the shop where I brought the parts for an estimate told me that visually the parts doesn't look bad at all. He was talking of gentle lapping the crankshaft, camshafts and the cylinder walls: I am not an expert, I don't really know if crankshaft and camshafts could be damaged in such a surface treatment, but for sure I am skeptical about lapping the cylinders, which are used but with just 30k km, the signs with crossed spirals of the original factory manufacturing still very visible. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...cb2059e626.jpg what would be the best way - not abrasive - to clean the carbo deposit on the piston heads? A friend of mine told me a first try could be a octan booster additive. I read some very interesting articles about Nikasil coating last night: what exactly does "honing" a cylinder wall mean in English? Is it a synonym of lapping? Or is it a more (or less) abrasive treatment? I think I understood that if the ovalization of the cylinders is within tolerance, measuring the roughness of the cylinder walls after having carefully cleaned them (in this regard, what could be the best way to clean the walls in depth, because I saw that the dirt would effect the measurement of Ra, leading to a better result) if this is within the range provided by Mahle, i.e. Ra between 0.4 and 0.6 micron, with the height of the crests Rz less than 1.2 micron, I think the best thing would be not to touch the walls of the cylinders, even if the craftsman of the rectification shop seems to be dying to do it. I know this is a very technical subjects, maybe a bit annoying for many of you, but I must say, any advice is very welcome. Another important thing is I am looking for the right part numbers for the parts to be welded to the body in order to use the 6 points harness/belt: are they still available? Does anyone know the part numbers of them? https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3ff4315302.jpg I found the pictures inside a very beautiful thread from a totally car rebuild made by 9meister: are this parts the original plates? https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0c966b3de7.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...521b170d94.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9032153b0c.jpg I am still looking for some very welcome RL member that could give me a detailed and exhaustive scheme on where and how to apply the welds to obtain a result as faithful as possible to the body of a 993 RS I thought of the RS because wanting to use the car even on the street, I can't install the welded matter cage (it's not road legal here) and apply the necessary reinforcements to use the cage, because it would create imbalances in the rigidity of the vehicle, I suppose. Others have told me that I could weld it all like a rally car, but I have no idea what it means: somewhere I read that the Porsche CUPs were welded with piecewise continuous welds, because if they had allowed them to perform real continuous welding, the cars would have been too fast compared to the competitors (much more rigid, much more precise, I imagine). Frankly: I don't know what to do, this is a real crossroads. RS specs (my very first choice) or Rally car specs, which means with really continuous welding (but in any case without rollbar): this second option scares me, because rally cars have a welded cage, mine not. |
Meanwhile these wheels pop-up, it would be really nice to make a sort of Cup Tribute, but an experienced friend of mine is telling me that magnesium is fragile since brand new, even though the x-ray would say they are free from invisible cracks, he wouldn't buy them, because after 25 years they are for sure not become stronger and if they break, they do it all in a sudden
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...65e7551bdf.jpg This is the only pastel yellow RS/CUP/RSR I've been able to find so far, the closest color to mine https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...daf6dc5510.jpg I already took a set of BBS E29 (same shape of magnesium E28, but in aluminum), I think it is more advisable, for safety reasons, to go for them, changing the outer channel. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d0b0b85eb.jpeg Completely overhauled and painted in BBS gold, with stickers, same as this one It is a long long road, basically you are alone, the one entitled to carry on the heaviness of such a challenging project, for someone like me that is totally outside from his environment, it is like a solo navigation. the help of friends and people, porsche enthusiast or not, persons who have already tried the same or similar experience, I must confess are of great help, if not materially, definitely psychologically |
964 / 993 RS body modifications are described in the 964 body manual, here are the relevant pages -> 964 RS BIW modifications
|
Originally Posted by ToSi
(Post 16625775)
964 / 993 RS body modifications are described in the 964 body manual, here are the relevant pages -> 964 RS BIW modifications
I found out that some versions had a genuine porsche reinforcement on the outer side of the body, where the suspension strut mount is connected to the chassis https://www.rosepassion.com/fr/renfort-P47864 Which models had this reinforcement installed? I am asking because I would like to install it as well Then I am searching for the part number of this specific very small piece https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d5d91180a4.jpg I also need the part number, if they exist, of the fixing point to be welded to use the 6 point harness. |
Rennline makes a good replica of the switch mount -> https://www.rennline.com/Cup-and-RS-...ductinfo/EL62/
The strut tower reinforcements were on 993RS & ROW Turbo S, maybe some others. For harness mounting, looks like they welded in a pair of bosses into the tunnel of the blue car. The mounts below the seats should use a backing plate welded to the outside, something like https://www.sparcousa.com/product/eye-bolt-22mm or https://www.schrothracing.com/item/r...are-Harnesses#. I don't recall seeing a factory part # for these. |
I made my own kill switch mount and cable bracket but buying Rennline's kit is definitely the way to go.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e3d7eafd42.jpg https://www.rennline.com/Cup-and-RS-...ductinfo/EL62/ https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ec2fbe9d09.jpg Edit: looks like Tosi and I were writing the same thing at the same time. |
Originally Posted by ToSi
(Post 16628431)
Rennline makes a good replica of the switch mount -> https://www.rennline.com/Cup-and-RS-...ductinfo/EL62/
The strut tower reinforcements were on 993RS & ROW Turbo S, maybe some others. For harness mounting, looks like they welded in a pair of bosses into the tunnel of the blue car. The mounts below the seats should use a backing plate welded to the outside, something like https://www.sparcousa.com/product/eye-bolt-22mm or https://www.schrothracing.com/item/r...are-Harnesses#. I don't recall seeing a factory part # for these. What do you think Tosi, I am reading a lot about 3,8 RS engine and I was asking myself if the differences between the CUP and the RS engine were substantially just the mechanic valve lifters (were they reinforced or just like the 964 ones?) and different camshafts (together with different engine map) or if there are consistent bigger (and very important) difference than just changing the upper part of the RS engine. Here in the forum I read that removing the steering pump saves 5 to 10 Nm along the bandwidth and that a similar effect comes from using mechanical valve lifters. if what the rumors say is true, i.e. the RS engine has more likely 315/320 than the declared 300, the 2 mods above, together with a LWF should bring even more vitality to the package. but maybe this is just a fantasy: usually in physics and engineering one can apply the principle of overlapping (I don't know if this way it is translated well from italian) effects, if this were the case, one could expect something around 330/335 hp with a rev limiter similar to the cup one, close to 7000 rpm. P.S. & Errata Corrige No, I checked and the correct name of that principle is "superposition principle" ( in italian " principio di sovrapposizione degli effetti") |
The 993 rs intake plenum is completely different regarding the cup plenum which is the plastic one 272 hp.....
all the internal engine parts are the same . Mechanical valves lifters were not adjustable as 964 , you need some calibrated parts to adjust the valves clearance. but we use Rsr adjustable parts to replace them . I’m not sure that camshafts are the same .... |
Originally Posted by cup997laurent
(Post 16630838)
The 993 rs intake plenum is completely different regarding the cup plenum which is the plastic one 272 hp.....
all the internal engine parts are the same . Mechanical valves lifters were not adjustable as 964 , you need some calibrated parts to adjust the valves clearance. but we use Rsr adjustable parts to replace them . I’m not sure that camshafts are the same .... Is it worth investing in such a mod on a genuine 3,8 RS engine, performance related? |
Little update and questions, related to full original rebuild or introducing some mods performance oriented
1) In the engine rebuild process, I finally found an experienced shop where to make the cleaning, check, and eventually the overhaul of each component of the engine, together with crankshaft balancing (I don't know if this is the right way to say it). During the last months, searching for other parts, I also found and bought used mechanical rocker arms from the 964 and here comes the question: would you upgrade (or backdate) the hydraulic lifters (I already bought the INA oem replacement) or would you sacrifice a bit of originality to get some more performance? https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5c8155600b.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...853cfec066.jpg 2) the second question is somehow connected to the first one: if I go for ful restoring, this question doesn't make sense. But in case I go for mechanical rocker arms, I think I would also change the camshafts with some more aggressive one, but still compatible to perfectly work with its original 3.6 pistons and cylinders and valves, springs etc. in the heads ----_> Would it make sense the power stearing pump? Somewhere here on RL I saw that such a removal asks for other change, maybe if this envolve the cammes, it could be something to be done. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b43bb0d4af.jpg I also got this, together with 996 GT3 Crankshaft, 996 GT3 Oil Pump, but I would like to use these parts for the build of the Step 2. For what kind of application are indicated the mechanical rocker arms? Until how many rpm? I saw the peuteur rods and rocker, no idea how much they would cost, plus valve springs and valves, no idea, it is strange only prices of used parts and bran new mahle parts are available... I mean, either I go for a full restore, preserving 100% of its originality, or if I change, I would also change the cammes, not just the rocker arms, and would also remove the steering pump: If the 964 rocker arms are good for application up to 7500 rpm, I would take them on the shelf to use them later. Basically for the step 2 I will need to find a good used engine block and the cylinder heads (with all the hardwere), cammes, 3,8 cylinder and pistons. So far I found a 964 92 engine block, plus 964 used heads for a very good price, but I don't know if this parts would mate the mahle 3,8 cylinder and pistons: somewhere I read that one can use the 964 heads with some modification, but I don't know what was the case they where talking about, because in my case block and heads would be from the same engine type, are the cylinder of the 993 different shaped? In regards to piston roundness and piston walls Ra (in micrometer) what are the tolerances and what is the expected result for a very good job? |
Finally in grinding shop they dismantled the heads and the verdict is as follows: perfect valve guides, the seats and the valve edge must be very slightly rectified, to ensure perfect closure between valve and seat.
Can anyone tell me if the valves were originally subjected to some heat treatment? Regarding the crankshaft it will need to be carefully cleaned and polished, the connecting rods disassembled and cleaned as well. About the cylinder, it will be measured the ovalization and the clearance between each piston and its cylinder: after this, the crankshaft will be balanced. What is the best way to do it? Crankshaft by itself or cranckshaft + flywheel ? https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...71d3dee616.jpg I took advantage of the parts that I had to buy to put the coachbuilder in a position to work at his best, for buying the parts necessary to reinforce the body like the RS was. I imagine the front reinforcement is used to add the track towing hook: could someone tell me where I can find the original part/code? The last two are the steering arms which will be installed on the 993 silver at the beginning of June: I can't wait to get the final driving result. |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16624884)
Meanwhile these wheels pop-up, it would be really nice to make a sort of Cup Tribute, but an experienced friend of mine is telling me that magnesium is fragile since brand new, even though the x-ray would say they are free from invisible cracks, he wouldn't buy them, because after 25 years they are for sure not become stronger and if they break, they do it all in a sudden
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...65e7551bdf.jpg This is the only pastel yellow RS/CUP/RSR I've been able to find so far, the closest color to mine https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...daf6dc5510.jpg I already took a set of BBS E29 (same shape of magnesium E28, but in aluminum), I think it is more advisable, for safety reasons, to go for them, changing the outer channel. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d0b0b85eb.jpeg Completely overhauled and painted in BBS gold, with stickers, same as this one It is a long long road, basically you are alone, the one entitled to carry on the heaviness of such a challenging project, for someone like me that is totally outside from his environment, it is like a solo navigation. the help of friends and people, porsche enthusiast or not, persons who have already tried the same or similar experience, I must confess are of great help, if not materially, definitely psychologically '95 993 had mechanical rockers stock but possibly I'm mistaken . my engine is a '95 Cup M64/20 so it has the RS cams , mech rockers and 3.8 P's and C's a very lucky find if I can transfer a few shots from my phone I'll do so , your not alone many are attempting similar endeavors haha ! Bert |
Paolo I have a set of the Centerlock Mag wheels NOS on my '95 Cup tribute and have no doubt they are sound despite age , I think many '95 993 had mechanical rockers stock but possibly I'm mistaken . this because of many reasons, mainly because the principles is base on incompressibility of fluids, but some pressure goes lost because some oil passes between each small cylinder and the walls, in the phase when the arm goes forcing on valve's hat. The viscosity of the oil probably plays a big role when the engine is running at high temperature as well. but mechanical rockers I am quite sure were installed in all the 993 race engines. finally I found the way to go with the original engine rebuild, using its original layout in the lower part, changing the hydraulic with the mechanical rocker arms, and introducing the varioram intake plus varioram dme. These mods, together with crankshaft balancing should give some pepper to the stock layout. I still don't know if it is the case to go for power steering pump removal, together with different camshafts, but pistons and rods are going to remain its stock 3,6, so I don't kmow how much performance there woild be with different shaped camshafts. At first I was considering also the center locks, very exotic and sexy system, I must say, but I must be realistic and consider the budget and the fact that performance related the center locking system doesn't play any role. I must direct my attention more towards the unsprung masses reduction adding floating braking discs of 302 mm front, if they are available, and an efficient cooling system for the front rotors. I must stay focused first of all to get the car on the road, and then maybe start thinking how to build a step 2 engine, after some time. The next step now is building the G50.21 2 or the G50.32 2 gearbox: is the gearbox case of the RS CS version somehow different to the first one, i.e. can I install G50.32 hardware inside a gearbox case that originally was meant to have G50.21 hardware? I am still searching for a supplier for the roller bearings, that I suppose must be available somehow for considerable lower price, especially if I consider the asking price for a gearbox overhaul (which shoule provide new bearings) because I already found a supplier/manufacturer that can replicate the original helical gears for a decent price (and high quality, but ordering at least five gearsets), together with cementing and grinding process, and giving me the gearbox back closed and calibrated, ready to be installed. For a track and very light car I think a longer 1st gear must be very useful: in which parts the G50.32 is different to the G50.21, apart from gear ratios? |
For my 993 track engine I modified the 993 hydraulic lifters to mechanical. It was a bit of work but I am hoping we did our homework and got it right. I also removed the power steering pump and installed a cup style electric pump in the frunk. You will need to cap off the back of the cam where the pump assembly attached. Patrick motorsports sells one for this purpose. IIRC the cams of the 993 don't allow the freeze plugs used on the 964 engine. The 964 engine will be different port sizes and uses 9mm vs 8mm valves and guides. I believe they use a different alloy as well. The cam towers of the 964 are different and they don't have the oiling for the 993 lifters but run tubes for splash oiling for the rockers. Although my rockers are now mechanical I will be using the oil formerly used to feed the lifters to lubricate the rockers but pluged the holes to where the lifters were amongst some other small mods.
These are my modified mechanical 993 forged rockers left vs stock mechanical cast 911 rockers right. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a5f9795b4.jpeg |
Originally Posted by fsa
(Post 15525059)
Paolo,
The next Rennsport Reunion, a world-renowned Porsche event in the U.S., recently held at Mazda Laguna Seca Race Track in California, probably will next occur in September, 2021. Might be your goal to finish? Consider shipping it over, showing the car, telling its story, then doing another drive here. Some of us can help you with logistics. Take lots of pictures as you restore. Have you made contact with the Porsche factory and Porsche Classic in Zuffenhausen? Perhaps they would be of assistance, or offer advice in your amazing project? Fred In the past almost 18 months I contacted Porsche, Porsche Classic, Porsche Museum, but nothing came back, nothing: what I got as source, help, nearness, I got from you guys here on RL and from few close friends Porsche very much enthusiast like many of us here are. I don't do it every time, but I must really thank you. In the past days I created an instagram profile specifically for this project and I must say that while I was talking to the person who advised me to open it, all your comments flowed in front of me, which have kept me company over these long months and still are, and I told him that it is not my intention to appear explicitly as a person on the instagram account. Everything was somehow revealing itself for what I unconsciously from the first moments in which I created this post in my heart I already knew all of this could represent: infact I called it Projekt Limoncella, nothing more, nothing less. It's not about me, I realised I'm just a vehicle, a link, a carrier: this is a project and the protagonist is the car itself together with the processes, suggestions and sharing with the people with whom I've shared doubts so far, indecision on what to do, evaluations, or even simply the madness of even thinking of putting this beautiful 993 back on the road, in shape more than before (and they are all beautiful, but the ones you rebuild, or on which you put your hand, I'm starting to understand it, or to become aware of it , they are even more than the others). Of mine what makes me look forward with confidence and does not make me break down in the face of difficulties in giving continuity and support to this project, which I already understood will leave me much more than saving a beautiful creature, there is an energy that does not end. I recently received this photo from the cleaning shop, I must go there this saturday and ask what type of cleaning system they used onto expendable parts that I gave them for a test, but the result looks amazing, since they were much worse than in bad condition! https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8f12ec1209.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7f64468cb7.jpg In the shop they have the ice dry blasting system, but I am not sure they used that system to clean these parts, that were really in bad bad shape. |
Fascinating project and a compelling read. What a quest! I can’t wait to live vicariously through your first drive on a beautiful winding road, enjoying the result of your dedication and passion.
|
Originally Posted by Tlaloc75
(Post 16661441)
Fascinating project and a compelling read. What a quest! I can’t wait to live vicariously through your first drive on a beautiful winding road, enjoying the result of your dedication and passion.
I was looking for parts to buy for the engine heads overhaul, valve guides are perfects, as valve seats and valve themselves. the inly thing the grinder shop asked me to buy are the sealings for the valve stem, so i was considering to buy also the piston rings. I sked rosepassion, as I usually do to every shop other than Porsche local dealer, if the parts enclosed in the basket are all genuine porsche parts, just to be aware what I am buying and they answered that they are, except for piston rings that are from Goetze. Now I am asking myself what to do, what is best for the engine rebuild, Goetze or Genuine Porsche rings? https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...fe8111b795.jpg |
Yesterday I've been to the rectifying shop, and the result is amazing: the craftsman couldn't believe the car has been submerged for almost five years.
he really still thinks I am kidding. Cylinder heads are now perfectly clean, valve seats have been just mildly rectified, so the valves, the inlet valve guides are perfect, the exhaust guides have a very small play, so they will be all changed with brand new ones. The camshafts after being worked look as brand new, and so will the crankshaft. cylinder heads on the exterior part look great, only two of them have some corrosion on the boarders of cooling fins, that compromise just the esthetics. I like the original engine to maintain sort of a scar on its skin, it tells the story of the car, of course this only because it doesn't compromise in anyway its efficiency. Pistons now look as brand new after a microwave bath. This week the shop will measure the cylinders ovalization, the geometry of the crankshaft, together with the rest of what is necessary. I really hope the result will be positive. body work is going to start really soon. |
Happy :burnout:
The cylinders have no ovalization, crankshaft geometry is perfect, as much as surfaces: the man who is taking care of engine parts doesn't have any doubt, the mechanical lifters are way better than the hydraulics. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7cc9d0a9c0.jpg What a nice view! https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0bbea0d88e.jpg amazing 1 https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...66c79a979b.jpg amazing 2 https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f958878156.jpg amazing 6 https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8a6ece0864.jpg Shiny heads https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1bd9ec5fe9.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...65d7b135f3.jpg The man from the shop is saying the connecting rod bearings and connecting rod bushes are in "as brand new shape and size", the engine, he told me, must have had a very tranquil life and regular service intervals during its life before becoming a submarine. I don't know what to do, if change them anyway, or not. |
The engine parts are in amazing condition!
I am curious as to why the mechanic says the mechanical lifters are much better than hydraulic? |
Originally Posted by SpeedyC2
(Post 16687598)
The engine parts are in amazing condition!
I am curious as to why the mechanic says the mechanical lifters are much better than hydraulic? |
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...71d3dee616.jpg
Hello, I am following your thread since the begining , I have both reinforcements 96550173900grv and 96550174000grv new. I have bought them @ €150 both. I see today they are @ €143 each + shipping If you have paid todays price, and can return them against other parts you need, I will send you mine from Paris for the same price I got them 150 shipped. Sincerely, I am not trying to hack your thread, But I would be honored to 'in a form' offer a small gesture to your limoncella I do not sell parts , I am in finance :) If not, no problem, I'll find something to send you to be part of your project, for free courage the exact picture of the ones I have are in this thread https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...ith-turbo.html |
Originally Posted by Tlaloc75
(Post 16687630)
Because they have to be adjusted. Recurring revenue!
But he is not the mechanic, he owns the rectifying shop. He was telling me that it isnt so uncommon that some dirt goes into the hydraulic lifter, while mechanic system is more reliable. |
Originally Posted by geolab
(Post 16687734)
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...71d3dee616.jpg
Hello, I am following your thread since the begining , I have both reinforcements 96550173900grv and 96550174000grv new. I have bought them @ €150 both. I see today they are @ €143 each + shipping If you have paid todays price, and can return them against other parts you need, I will send you mine from Paris for the same price I got them 150 shipped. Sincerely, I am not trying to hack your thread, But I would be honored to 'in a form' offer a small gesture to your limoncella I do not sell parts , I am in finance :) If not, no problem, I'll find something to send you to be part of your project, for free courage Thank you very much geolab, it would be great sharing something coming with such a positive spirit/intention! Maybe you have the LSD for the cup cars ? :rockon: (Just kidding) I paid 200 euro for both, but I will also need the RS upprights (BBI?) and then another pair of cup tie rods, plus many many other things, like for example the RECARO SPG seats, even though I really don't know if my bottom fits the standard version, while the XL seems to be so big. I fit perfectly in the pole position ABE/TÜV, but they arent made in fireproof material and they don't have same grey finish on the shoulders. |
The engine parts are in amazing condition! |
Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16658453)
For my 993 track engine I modified the 993 hydraulic lifters to mechanical. It was a bit of work but I am hoping we did our homework and got it right. I also removed the power steering pump and installed a cup style electric pump in the frunk. You will need to cap off the back of the cam where the pump assembly attached. Patrick motorsports sells one for this purpose. IIRC the cams of the 993 don't allow the freeze plugs used on the 964 engine. The 964 engine will be different port sizes and uses 9mm vs 8mm valves and guides. I believe they use a different alloy as well. The cam towers of the 964 are different and they don't have the oiling for the 993 lifters but run tubes for splash oiling for the rockers. Although my rockers are now mechanical I will be using the oil formerly used to feed the lifters to lubricate the rockers but pluged the holes to where the lifters were amongst some other small mods.
These are my modified mechanical 993 forged rockers left vs stock mechanical cast 911 rockers right. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a5f9795b4.jpeg |
This just keeps getting better and better. Why isn't anyone sponsoring his build yet? This is so cool. truly a car that's back from the dead.
|
Originally Posted by PRSWILL
(Post 16688219)
This just keeps getting better and better. Why isn't anyone sponsoring his build yet? This is so cool. truly a car that's back from the dead.
For example sooner or later I'll be facing the gearbox rebuild: I found the company that could provide me the reproduction of the G50.32 gears, it is a company very well known here in Italy, providing gears for porsche historical Les Mans cars, with helyx teeth, cementation and rectification process, but they do it only if I order at least 5 gearsets, this is what is truly expensive. I am leaving this as last thing to be done, maybe in the meanwhile it would jump out another way to go. Someone tells me it is not a bad solution having 5 sets, because I can take 2 and sell the other 3, he thinks this would be a way to sponsor the project by myself, but it is not my field, I have no idea if someone would be interested. Sometime I tell myself, with prices of Porsche spare parts always increasing and the fact that gears aren't like "prosciutto di parma" than once is sliced must be eaten shortly, otherwise after some time must be thrown in the litter bin, it is only a matter of time before someone calls me for buying a set. Someone told me not to be nervous about that, but that I have to consider it as a sort of investment, which is not what I am doing with this car...or maybe yes, but not in a material way, in a knowledge related way is definitely an investment. I am a beginner, but just 2 years ago I couldnt enter a rectification shop knowing precisely what to say and being able to have a conversation with the responsible craftsman, understanding perfectly what he is telling and making livetime considerations. Of course having a professional to deal with is very important, but I also noticed it is very important knowing what is crucial to be done and what not. It helps a lot. Meanwhile 99% I found the supplier for the suspension package, something really top end in my opinion, which speaks by itself about the comrpomiseless approach guiding me in this rebuild. More expense, more time to finish line, let's see. |
I particularly am not a fan of the hydraulic lifters. They eliminate the mechanical sound the engine makes. If you are lazy about changing your oil it will cause issues and require a second filter to prevent issues. I have seen them need replacing as early as 60k miles which is about the same expense as having a valve lash done every 15-20k. Although the upper valve cover on the 993 requires the removal of the power steering pump to access the right upper valve cover making valve lash adjustments difficult in the car. The earlier engines only had a 6 nut vs 8 bolt pattern to hold them in place.
I had to have the tops of the rockers machined flat removing the area where the hydraulic lifter hat is. Had custom made sleeves with a flange and step to match the internal contour of the rocker and threads to hold the tappet in place. then the remianing holes where the oil that feed the lifter welded shut to prevent any oil pressure loss. It was a bit of work but a huge savings over the other options. The 993 forged rockes modified to mechanical saves about .8 pounds of weight vs the cast units. |
Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16688933)
I particularly am not a fan of the hydraulic lifters. They eliminate the mechanical sound the engine makes. If you are lazy about changing your oil it will cause issues and require a second filter to prevent issues. I have seen them need replacing as early as 60k miles which is about the same expense as having a valve lash done every 15-20k. Although the upper valve cover on the 993 requires the removal of the power steering pump to access the right upper valve cover making valve lash adjustments difficult in the car. The earlier engines only had a 6 nut vs 8 bolt pattern to hold them in place.
I had to have the tops of the rockers machined flat removing the area where the hydraulic lifter hat is. Had custom made sleeves with a flange and step to match the internal contour of the rocker and threads to hold the tappet in place. then the remianing holes where the oil that feed the lifter welded shut to prevent any oil pressure loss. It was a bit of work but a huge savings over the other options. The 993 forged rockes modified to mechanical saves about .8 pounds of weight vs the cast units. the craftsman from the rectifying shop has seen the gearbox gears and LSD gears and they are not usable anymore, so this, together with bodywork, will be the part more expensive to rebuild. I can reuse the gearbox case, the engagement levers and probably also the synchros together with the LSD case and body. But are the synchros same for G50.32 and G50.21, apart from strength of the material? |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16689009)
Thank you for your answer Cobalt, in my case I am going to use 964 rocker arms, will they need to be reworked as well?
the craftsman from the rectifying shop has seen the gearbox gears and LSD gears and they are not usable anymore, so this, together with bodywork, will be the part more expensive to rebuild. I can reuse the gearbox case, the engagement levers and probably also the synchros together with the LSD case and body. But are the synchros same for G50.32 and G50.21, apart from strength of the material? I would assume unless you buy one of the forged sets designed for these engines the factory ones won't work unless you plug up the oiling holes. The 993 units are force fed oil through the shaft and the earlier version is splash oiled. There are two holes in them designed to oil the rocker and shaft by the oiling rails which shoot oil towards them and whatever else is splashed around. I guess isntead of welding you can replace the brass bushing with a new one that has no holes. It wouldn't cost that much. |
Project Limocella - transmission
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16688799)
thank you Will, it would be very welcome finding some support, because this isn't my field at all, I am learning a lot, and I must confess it is what I wanted from the very beginning to be personally envolved in every part of the process.
For example sooner or later I'll be facing the gearbox rebuild: I found the company that could provide me the reproduction of the G50.32 gears, it is a company very well known here in Italy, providing gears for porsche historical Les Mans cars, with helyx teeth, cementation and rectification process, but they do it only if I order at least 5 gearsets, this is what is truly expensive. I am leaving this as last thing to be done, maybe in the meanwhile it would jump out another way to go. Someone tells me it is not a bad solution having 5 sets, because I can take 2 and sell the other 3, he thinks this would be a way to sponsor the project by myself, but it is not my field, I have no idea if someone would be interested. Sometime I tell myself, with prices of Porsche spare parts always increasing and the fact that gears aren't like "prosciutto di parma" than once is sliced must be eaten shortly, otherwise after some time must be thrown in the litter bin, it is only a matter of time before someone calls me for buying a set. Someone told me not to be nervous about that, but that I have to consider it as a sort of investment, which is not what I am doing with this car...or maybe yes, but not in a material way, in a knowledge related way is definitely an investment. I am a beginner, but just 2 years ago I couldnt enter a rectification shop knowing precisely what to say and being able to have a conversation with the responsible craftsman, understanding perfectly what he is telling and making livetime considerations. Of course having a professional to deal with is very important, but I also noticed it is very important knowing what is crucial to be done and what not. It helps a lot. Meanwhile 99% I found the supplier for the suspension package, something really top end in my opinion, which speaks by itself about the comrpomiseless approach guiding me in this rebuild. More expense, more time to finish line, let's see. https://www.guardtransmissionllc.com |
I am really considering to introduce a downgrade (which in the fact for a sport use is an upgrade) using the mechanical rocker arms, but it seems for some kind of reason the stuff must remain a mistery, if someone have detailed info in regard to "what must be done" to make a good and reliable job, and this must remain secret matter, it would be welcome to recieve the support material/instruction privately.
I think it would be nice to upgrade its original engine going for a crankshaft balance, 964 mechanical lifter, steering pump removal, together with Varioram intake, its DME and 3-1 optimised primaries with x-pipe and mapping. The more obscure part seems to be the necessary reworking process to be done in order to make the 964 mechanical lifters work . So far I found only infos on FVD (and here, thank to Cobalt), where they say one must upgrade also the camshafts to sportier ones, but why, the original 993 camshafts are not going to work fine or for hp gain? From FVD website: Mechanical Rocker Arm Kit 993 / 993 TT / 993 GT2 - With Oil Lubricated Rocker ShaftsSay good bye to that 993 hydraulic lifter flat spot in the higher rpm´s with our Mechanical Rocker Arm Kit. This is a complete retrofit kit ready for installation. This kit includes custom oil lubricated shafts that include oil holes specifically placed on each shaft to ensure constant oil pressure for superior reliability. We also suggest our Sprocket Wheels Kit FVD10550000 , in order to more accurately time the camshafts. This kit must be paired will with Sport camshafts for Mechanical Rocker arms and not with the original 993 camshafts. On this website they are very professional, but not everyone is a mechanic and is able to know so accurately the way engines work: I mean, better you tell the story compleately instead of just half way, they aren't necessarily talking to professionals! https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...41fd3ca168.jpg |
Originally Posted by Texas RS
(Post 16689436)
You may want to contact Matt at Guard Transmission to discuss gear and LSD options. Matt is very knowledgeable and helpful in working through options. I believe he is GT Gears on RL.
https://www.guardtransmissionllc.com But I will follow your advice and contact them, lets stay positive. this gearbox is driving me crazy...together with rocker arms this aspect represents the last remaining hole in the rebuilding process. I finally found a donor car for the entire electrical system, the fuel lines and brake lines running under the car. I found a good shop where to overhaul and check the brake calipers and paint them red. And most important, the next tuesday the coachbuilder isngoing to start the bodywork, I can't really wait for it! |
There are also these rocker arms, http://www.autoatlanta.com/Porsche-9...FVD105399.html
http://c767170.r70.cf2.rackcdn.com/RFVD105399.jpg Perhaps you could contact FVD or Auto Atlanta, find out who the manufacturer is of the two kits and speak to the manufacturer directly. |
^^ Their kit appears to be stock mechanical 964 style rockers used for decades with stock 993 rocker shafts and the rest. Although I can't tell from the pictures but it appears they plugged the splash weep holes in the rockers. If not you will risk loosing oil pressure since oil is fed through the shafts and pressure would be lost by the oil escaping through the holes. It is possible they are supplying a custom shafts with smaller oil feed hole since less oil is necessary and no need to pressurize the hydraulic lifter. I don't know what to say regarding the cams. My understanding is that these will make more noise and is only worthwhile for engines that are run at consistently high RPMS above 6k or 7k rpms. Porsche has used these same rocker arms with a wide variety of cams for decades. I know of countless engines built with mild to wild cams all using the mechanical rockers with no issues.
I suspect due to the cam profile change from the 964 to 993 there will be more noise and I am assuming they don't want people complaining but that is all I can think of. I don't believe the engine will fail by just switching over to mechanical if done properly. For street use I suspect there will be no gain and only added adjustments. My build is a slightly higher revving engine than stock. I also changed out my valve springs to a stronger spring and Ti retainers to match the higher revs. It will be twin turbocharged with no exhaust for track duty. I don't think additional noise will be a concern for me. ;) 9M and Pauter also make kits for solid rocker conversion. Although they are weighing the cast iron rockers vs their forged units. The 993 units are forged and weigh less so I chose to modify them. Not quite as light as the pauter units but close. https://pauter.com/parts/rockers/porsche/ |
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I noticed AutoAtlanta has two different price levels for the kit. I wonder what the difference is between the two?
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What a great thread and discussion!
Maybe you send your heads out to a 911 air-cooled builder who can take on doing a engine head overhaul/machine shop work to upgrade to solid lifters, spring/valve upgrade, and cam upgrade so your mechanic can focus on assembling the motor? |
Originally Posted by samurai_k
(Post 16693334)
What a great thread and discussion!
Maybe you send your heads out to a 911 air-cooled builder who can take on doing a engine head overhaul/machine shop work to upgrade to solid lifters, spring/valve upgrade, and cam upgrade so your mechanic can focus on assembling the motor? - first of all budget: the voices where to "invest" money are many, some for sure are going to be unexpected, especially the gearbox rebuild is truly expensive, if as someone has suggested me trying to do i dont find a sort of sponsor who can help me with the trasmission, maybe I can find one used, but i must be conservative for the worst scenario, i.e. buying 5 sets of G50.32 from the manufacturer I am already in contact with. - secondary, if I have to invest so much money in the gearbox, the option to send all the heads package to 9meister (the first name for such a job my mind recalls) and spend at least 5k (I suppose) would postpone the end of works deadline even further. I know it would be super amazing building a very pepper 3,6 liter version, and in that case I could send 9meister also the varioram intake (I know they rework it inside to optimise the intake flow) but this can happen if I find a way to save somewhere else or if some company might be interested in helping this project, maybe in exchange of visibility. It is all a very work in progress, a very fluid situation, in which I do not exclude "a priori" to do certain mods, but I must also keep my feet on the ground and guarantee myself a way that I can go counting only on my legs to get to my destination. Then if along the way a reality operating in this world of magnificent 911 would want to help me, it would be a fantastic thing! If meanwhile nothing changes, the safest option is to put the new hydraulic tappets that I have already bought (OEM product from INA) and still go for varioram intake and its DME unit. Is it true (or lets say strongly advisable) to change the distribution chain sprockets on intermediate shaft and on both camshaft sides as someone told me while putting on new distribution chains? I mean, if the sprockets are as new as the connecting rod bearings are, is it really mandatory to change them? I know, the engine is open, but if the craftsman in the rectifying shop tells me he wouldn't change them (I am referring to connecting-rod bearings and rod bush), what would you suggest me to tell him to do? Maybe before changing them measure the diameters of each bearing? or is it a no brainer and they must be replaced, no matter what is the clearance and if they look and are perfect? where can I find a reference for tolerances of these parts of the engine? and in regard to chain sprockets, which is the way to go? |
Little picture update/juicy bits for very sick porsche 993 enthusiast
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2294b5e71a.jpg Vesuvius (Stahlgrau & Diamantsilber) wheels: these are the wheels that have remained four and half years sumberged in sweet water together with brand new heating shields https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a2fd23effd.jpg Hunting mechanical rockers squadron https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...16d09e4265.jpg Other angle https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e3cdaafa79.jpg detail 1 https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...d372c0156c.jpg detail 2 Listening to some good friend's advice, for the ones of you who want to follow this project also seeing videos and participating in a more relaxed, eventually closer and less technical way, I've started an instagram page - something that is totally new to me - that you can find here: https://instagram.com/limoncellaproj...d=tq7euaohqn6q Or simply texting "limoncellaprojekt" P.S. every thing I post there is linked with ashtag #rennlist |
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Now it’s going to get good! Can’t wait to see more progress.
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Wow! Can they really straighten that, or do many pieces have to be cut out?
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Wow great progress and I’m very curious about what’s going to happen on the celette
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its not looking that bad !
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Originally Posted by gavonder
(Post 16706987)
Wow! Can they really straighten that, or do many pieces have to be cut out?
After that, they will cut the panels that need to be changed and waterblast the car using the "rotisserie", cleaning also the inner side of the remofed door sills, so that they can work on clean surface and see accurately where rust is. Most of esthetic panels will be cut out/changed: both rear quarters together with door sills, both front fender (they are already removed and new ones need to be carefully screwed and chewed), together with a new roof and its front reinforcement. the only exterior surface that is still perfectly reusable is the rear lid. |
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Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16710490)
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Originally Posted by kingroon
(Post 16710500)
:roflmao:
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Originally Posted by PRSWILL
(Post 16711430)
Now those are rocker panels!
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That water must have been mighty cold. I have seen 993 and 964's that have sat outside unloved for 10 years that have far more rust. Amazing how much has survived. It is also amazing to see what it takes to straighten a tub like this. With a Cellette and the knowhow anything is possible but that is a lot of work.
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Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16712761)
That water must have been mighty cold. I have seen 993 and 964's that have sat outside unloved for 10 years that have far more rust. Amazing how much has survived. It is also amazing to see what it takes to straighten a tub like this. With a Cellette and the knowhow anything is possible but that is a lot of work.
It is a true emotion seeing his ability while working, with such a care but also decise manners, so effective and full of knowledge. He showed me p, while removing panels, the places where welds with brass were used, using the torch to remove them. Later I will post the video, I couldnt imagine such a thing like using brass weldings, very refined old technique, from what I could understand in the words of the tinsmith. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...7e83585ab2.jpg Final end of lid cable duct still very hot. It was welded with brass to the panel. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a1ab734780.jpg Between the cabin and the underline of rear quarter panel there is foam to seal the cockpit from gases or bad stuff or humidity https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c796ec235c.jpg the end part of both side of rear quarter panel before the brass weld to be melt. Thank you very much Cobalt, meanwhile engine heads are at the shop ready to be rebuilt. They also have checked both the camshaft housings, i.e. their condition and reworked the mating surfaces: there is no probelm reusing them. I finally decided to go for the standard hydraulic rocker arms, replacing the hydraulic part (INA). In the end rosepassion sent the Mahle rings instead of Goetze. |
Just wanted to commend your efforts again undertaking this size project deserves constant encouragement :)
Rich a 993 in a Speed Yellow I used to own https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0be7d9413.jpeg |
I am considering the option of installing a sequential gearbox instead of the G50 on my car.
What would be the options? I heard about Holinger and Ricardo as porsche gearbox suppliers for the cup cars. Is there the possibility to adapt it and install in the 993? |
I've not had a 993 in several years, and am an infrequent visitor. But here it is... the craziest thing I'll see all day. Good luck with your project.
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Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16706164)
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Originally Posted by SwayBar
(Post 16719684)
What yellow is that?
Limonengelb = Summer yellow |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16719791)
Paint To Sample
Limonengelb = Summer yellow So thanks to you, I'm pretty sure it's Limonengelb - Summer Yellow. :cheers: https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b1109bb547.jpg |
Originally Posted by SwayBar
(Post 16719872)
The reason I ask is that I've been trying to determine what color my racecar is, I've had it for 15 years now.
So thanks to you, I'm pretty sure it's Limonengelb - Summer Yellow. :cheers: https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...b1109bb547.jpg I saw few 964 in same colour, but I suppose it was PTS also for them. For Porsche 3,2, 944 and 928 I think it was the yellow available as simple option, but I am not 100% sure. It could be possible the car has been painted Pastel Yellow as well, they are only slightly different colors. Nice track tool! |
All is possible but don’t forget that a Good manual gearbox is able to drive you to the moon and return every holiday for many years , a sequential gearbox no :nono:
the costs are much higher than a manual box and I’m not sure the pleasure is higher...... |
Originally Posted by cup997laurent
(Post 16721886)
All is possible but don’t forget that a Good manual gearbox is able to drive you to the moon and return every holiday for many years , a sequential gearbox no :nono:
the costs are much higher than a manual box and I’m not sure the pleasure is higher...... Another important aspect is that an helicoidal gears gearbox with g50.32 gears would be better also in regards to originality, while straight teeth make a lot of noise inside the cockpit. I think at this point there isn't another way to go than rebuilding it brand new. |
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The Cellette is key to straightening these. I am just amazed how long this sat under water and had no rust. The purity of the water, its constant motion and temperature I am sure played a huge role in that. If this were in a stagnant pool it wouldn't be here anymore.
Summer yellow is a unique color. Although it was not offered on the 993. Is it possible it is pastel yellow.https://www.rennbow.org/colorwiki/PastelYellow This is a PTS summer yellow 964 RS. It is possible they are very similar if not identical paint codes. Porsche played names with colors such as Guards or India red which is a different name but same formula. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...bc86fb6fa.jpeg |
Summer yellow is a unique color. Although it was not offered on the 993. Is it possible it is pastel yellow.https://www.rennbow.org/colorwiki/PastelYellow This is a PTS summer yellow 964 RS. It is possible they are very similar if not identical paint codes. Porsche played names with colors such as Guards or India red which is a different name but same formula. So far I've been able to find only another 993 delivered from new in Summer Yellow. Pastel yellow is similar, less brilliant I'd rather say. I am not very much inside corrosion principles, but magnesium stuff was melted away, aluminum gummy isolated parts (like suspension arms) had pitting, so I think it was the magnesium and the mud to save the vehicle |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16724836)
It is a PTS ordered vehicle, I am sure about this, not only because of the VIN, but also because I know what was behind such a choice. The vehicle had a very special story from the very beginning.
So far I've been able to find only another 993 delivered from new in Summer Yellow. Pastel yellow is similar, less brilliant I'd rather say. I am not very much inside corrosion principles, but magnesium stuff was melted away, aluminum gummy isolated parts (like suspension arms) had pitting, so I think it was the magnesium and the mud to save the vehicle mag won't survive in water for any period of time. You are thinking it was acting like an anode? It is possible although I would suspect if the water was stagnant and warmer there would be even less mag left than there was. Cool on the PTS. |
All the weldings will be done with the body placed on the Cellette.
This morning I visit the rectifying shop, new exhaust valve in place, stronger than original ones, intake valve are perfect and will not be changed. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3ac86afcdb.jpg Some more scale must be removed from the spaces between the cooling wings The ultrasonic bath isn't having effect on the engine and gearbox surface, so as second option we'll try the so called ice blasting. We leave as last option glass microspheres blasting, which I don't like to go for because it changes the surface finish. |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16724836)
I am not very much inside corrosion principles, but magnesium stuff was melted away, aluminum gummy isolated parts (like suspension arms) had pitting, so I think it was the magnesium and the mud to save the vehicle
Here is an episode on automobile corrosion This guy is brilliant when it comes to explaining some basics.. The episode on the starter was very enlightening, I thought I knew how a starter worked until I watched this.. |
Originally Posted by Coleman
(Post 16727695)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ra9BMtYLo
Here is an episode on automobile corrosion This guy is brilliant when it comes to explaining some basics.. The episode on the starter was very enlightening, I thought I knew how a starter worked until I watched this.. Probably the barrier has been provided by silt, mud and very lower permeable type of ground like clay is. The mud I personally took out from the car was more than 1500kg, and while sitting on the bottom of the river the car was totally underwater but also half submerged (approximately till the belt line) from mud. it is a huge layer of mud (more than half a meter)to be overcome by oxygen, behaving like solid layer due to consolidation and with very low permehability coefficient. however the magnesium has dissolved heavily and some aluminum parts that were in electrical contact with the magnesium had pitting. The steel parts instead remained perfect, because there was a lot of aluminum almost everywhere to sacrifice itself for them, slowly, of course, but in those conditions for four and a half years. Difference between pastel yellow (upper) and lemon yellow (lower) https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...8723482542.jpg |
Nice picture with the colors, and from them:
Pastel Yellow looks lighter than Summer Yellow, and Lemon Yellow has less red in it versus Speed Yellow. |
Originally Posted by SwayBar
(Post 16730155)
Nice picture with the colors, and from them:
Pastel Yellow looks lighter than Summer Yellow, and Lemon Yellow has less red in it versus Speed Yellow. If someone can help me in a technical issue: the chain sprockets that go onto the intermediate shaft must be just pressed or heated and slightly pressed? https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...35640e1f22.jpg Sprockets are brand new genuine Porsche, same as coupled gears 0-0 (from Sweden, thank you Patrick) and shaft is its original one. |
......metal pornography
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5cfc51bbfd.jpg Modern Art https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2962e1bc39.jpg Love tunnel https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c90b201ec6.jpg |
This story would make for an excellent coffee table book one day.
Andreas |
Originally Posted by AOW162435
(Post 16736507)
This story would make for an excellent coffee table book one day.
Andreas https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3c743c76e.jpeg |
After acid treatment and cleaning, less than 24 hours after the waterblasting the bare metal chassis was painted with a very thin layer of anti-rust, and she is already back on the Cellette to complete the chassis rebuild
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3ae319d688.jpg Now she looks like a biscuit Furthermore, this morning Fed-ex ringed the bell saying hello, is there Paolo at home... Yes, it's me. OK, then this is your parcel... https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5595343497.jpg Now the question is, boot or no boots? https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3456bea755.jpg Very good looking piece of aluminum, thank you Eurowise The rear lower arm (shaped like a triangle) will be on harder rubber, since this is the part that has to face the longitudinal impacts coming from the roughness of the road. Let's see how this mixed set-up will work. |
Amazing progress, you have a huge set of stones taking this on. I can't find the "I bow" emoji but I do.
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Originally Posted by Grapeape
(Post 16741708)
Amazing progress, you have a huge set of stones taking this on. I can't find the "I bow" emoji but I do.
this project is requiring a massive psychological commitment to keep everything together, following many aspects in parallel at the same time, in a sector that, while adoring these cars, is not mine. The most beautiful part of it in fact is: this is not my job and definitely not a job for me. (But it represents a huge amount of work) If it was, I don't think it would have the same taste. I do not think the final result will have anything less than a top end work of a professional shop, having leaned on professionalisms with excellent competence. If anything, I hope the final result will speak clearly about the effort and the passion lavished not only by me, but by the subjects who by accepting the work, have been sucked in by the vortex of the limoncella |
I got a psychological lift from seeing the bare metal all the way here in New York, so thanks.
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Originally Posted by Markmcmlx
(Post 16742197)
I got a psychological lift from seeing the bare metal all the way here in New York, so thanks.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...52318d30ed.jpg |
We want more Bare Metal..!! :D
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Wow, bella, progetto fantastico!
Very impressive taking on a job like that. Great progress and determination 👌🏻👍🏻 I wish you all well and will follow this thread further with hauks eyes. Attached is a non edited picture of a pastel yellow 4s (iphone) for comparison. Keep up the good work 👌🏻 Looking forward to go back to Italian Liguria mountainbiking when everything opens up again. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...11efb9a0d.jpeg Pastel Yellow |
Originally Posted by ClassicAndy
(Post 16746660)
Wow, bella, progetto fantastico!
Very impressive taking on a job like that. Great progress and determination 👌🏻👍🏻 I wish you all well and will follow this thread further with hauks eyes. Attached is a non edited picture of a pastel yellow 4s (iphone) for comparison. Keep up the good work 👌🏻 Looking forward to go back to Italian Liguria mountainbiking when everything opens up again. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...11efb9a0d.jpeg Pastel Yellow https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f7b8e6ce83.jpg So far the only other 993 in this colour I was able to find (it is a turbo) Rennlist is much more for technical subjects/arguments, as soon as I realised the photographic material is too much, I decided to start an instagram page where to share details, some very juicy, coming from such an heavy rebuild, the ashtag #rennlist is always present, if someone would like to go technically deeper https://www.instagram.com/limoncellaprojekt/ Basically I am making a photo book of every process of the rebuild, something most of the times a professional doesn't have time or interest or maybe better if some aspects remain unknown to the mass, while I am going to share as much as possible every single detail that is going to come out. I firmly believe in sharing the information. |
Followed you. Loved this thread since day 1.
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Originally Posted by Churchill
(Post 15520959)
This is an awesome, somewhat hilarious, story. Good luck OP, this is quite a task. I would start by stripping the car completely and putting it on a Celette bench to make sure the unibody is straight. It probably isn't, but doesn't look too bad.
How much you were right Churchill: now, one year and a half later, thanks to the celette bench we can say that the frame in its central and the important parts did not need to be straightened, but only in some slightly worked peripheral parts. Do you have a crystal ball? https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...28a7315a5e.jpg I must say that the car couldn't be in the better hands, the work they are carrying out is impeccable, as well as something moving. I don't know if in the end I will manage not to cry. |
Maybe consider re-enforcing the door jamb metal properly from the inside to prevent the "check strap hinge" repair in the future?
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If COVID 19 ever ends, I am coming to Italy to see this car in person! This is one of the most awesome restorations I have ever seen. truly, back from the dead.... raised! I can't believe that body is straight again! Porsche needs to be PAYING you. You're helping keep their CLAIM of 70%+ of all Porsches are still on the road. THIS IS WHY!
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@nothingbutgt3 Are you going to seam weld the panels together to stiffen the chassis like the RS cars? Might as well with it down to bare metal!
Nice progress on the resto! |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16755094)
How much you were right Churchill: now, one year and a half later, thanks to the celette bench we can say that the frame in its central and the important parts did not need to be straightened, but only in some slightly worked peripheral parts. Do you have a crystal ball?
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Originally Posted by samurai_k
(Post 16756879)
@nothingbutgt3 Are you going to seam weld the panels together to stiffen the chassis like the RS cars? Might as well with it down to bare metal!
Nice progress on the resto! If someone has Infos regarding the full reinforcements, it would be very welcome, because probably the car will sit on the celette other 2 weeks... Then it will be late. And it would be very welcome argumentative contributes about eventual further weldings now that the body is on the celette bench. I saw Porsche wanted the body not continously seam welded, but with 25mm intervals. Front Doms weldings are clear, thank to a 9m post I saw in the RL forum history (a very nice 993 4 riviera blu conversion to RS body), maybe I should contact Colin at 9m if he is available to give me further details. The car will be street legal, so I will not install the full welded matter cage, but only a rear Das rollbar. |
Originally Posted by PRSWILL
(Post 16756807)
If COVID 19 ever ends, I am coming to Italy to see this car in person! This is one of the most awesome restorations I have ever seen. truly, back from the dead.... raised! I can't believe that body is straight again! Porsche needs to be PAYING you. You're helping keep their CLAIM of 70%+ of all Porsches are still on the road. THIS IS WHY!
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I haven't checked the thread out for a couple of months and I come back to find amazing things. Bravo! I'm floored by how much progress has been made :).
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Originally Posted by VadGTI
(Post 16760624)
I haven't checked the thread out for a couple of months and I come back to find amazing things. Bravo! I'm floored by how much progress has been made :).
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c595ea3963.jpg Roof, rear quarter panels, rear lid, in position and welded. Very few things are missing to restore the structure of the body to its origin and then we'll proceed applying the welding reinforcements. Every single measurement Cellette point is perfectly slip fit in its position, not even by 0,1mm out of its position. Tolerance/deviation is 0,0mm. The coach builder told me that till 0,2/0,3 mm deviation for such a car are still considered in tolerance, but here we are at 0,0mm deviation on all the measuring points...ALL of them. I am so thankful and happy about this specific aspect, chances its tolerance was worse (than now) when it glided in the river 6,5 years ago are definitely higher than it wasn't. |
This morning picture
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a9385ed93e.jpg now it has come the time for welding & reinforcements, precision and crucial job in order to create something very special. |
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Now that is a view few have ever seen a real Transformer. I see hands on hips and a comment like, What the hell are you gawking at? Let's get back to work!
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It's beginning to look whole again! Awesome work!
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Best thread in the history of Rennlist.
Andreas |
Originally Posted by uniquenamehere
(Post 16776999)
It's beginning to look whole again! Awesome work!
More than whole, she is stunning this way more than ever... to pass my hand over the surfaces not yet painted is something... |
Originally Posted by AOW162435
(Post 16777145)
Best thread in the history of Rennlist.
Andreas Next steps are going to be like a 30.000 pieces puzzle |
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Engine block almost ready to be reassembled
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6ef7ea0841.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a98196aa87.jpg |
Engine cleaning and check almost done
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ab490c9ded.jpg Engine block is inside without signs of corrosion and outside with very small signs https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...cb65edda20.jpg this is a view on the worst corrosion point on the gearbox case The craftsman at the grinder shop when I asked if the structure of the gearbox case could have been compromised has started smiling...like saying, no way The mating surfaces are simply perfect, as much as the seats for the mechanical parts. |
That is extensive corrosion on the transaxle although I agree being aluminum and not mag you are fine. Will you keep it raw aluminum or are you considering painting it to prevent any further corrosion?
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Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16813121)
That is extensive corrosion on the transaxle although I agree being aluminum and not mag you are fine. Will you keep it raw aluminum or are you considering painting it to prevent any further corrosion?
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Originally Posted by SwayBar
(Post 16813127)
What would be the proper paint or chemical to use?
https://tcpglobal.com/collections/po...ucts/por-44318 I have used it before with good results the color is not perfect but better than some of the other products which seem to be more golddish than aluminum looking. You can see my trans was painted but the engine case was not just vapor degreased. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c386a7ca7.jpeg |
Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16813121)
That is extensive corrosion on the transaxle although I agree being aluminum and not mag you are fine. Will you keep it raw aluminum or are you considering painting it to prevent any further corrosion?
For some reason the engine block has very superficial and very few points of corrosion, the gearbox case a bit more and in some point deeper (the worst part is the one in the posted picture) The inner side of both engine and gearbox cases are corrosion free. Probably the gearbox had more demage because it was not as much as the engine in electric contact with the magnesium of the fan housing, but this is maybe just a phantasy of mine. |
Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16813167)
I have had good luck with a Por 15 product. You can get aluminum color or clear.
https://tcpglobal.com/collections/po...ucts/por-44318 I have used it before with good results the color is not perfect but better than some of the other products which seem to be more golddish than aluminum looking. You can see my trans was painted but the engine case was not just vapor degreased. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c386a7ca7.jpeg I was considering giving some kind of protecting layer to the magnesium chain tensioner boxes and covers (on the outer side), maybe some kind of matt black, and to the fan housing in same color, I know it is not original, do you have some product to suggest, resistant to high temperatures? Also the engine and gearbox case it would be nice to grt them in some kind of gpfinish like the one of your gearbox, but painting it would mean preparing the surface using some kind of metallic proper putty. The fact is I have no idea what product to use, nor the people working at the painting shop, because it isnt something a bodyshop encount so often (to say they probably never had such a request) I am not even sure it would be a good idea, the car has a very clear and well known story, wouldnt it be strange to have a look under the car and see perfect shaped gearbox and engine case?!? Both of them are matching number, so maybe it just be visible it has been in a river, despite the fact it is still in perfectly working conditions. If I'll go for a step 2 engine and maybe also a step 2 gearbox, they will be perfect looking in their natural wapor blasted aluminium finish. Probably this is the way to go. I dont know what to do with the subframes structure...there is corrosion but I dont think it compromises the resistance of components, one day I think to use its original parts, the otherday to put on used ones in perfect conditions. It sounds like a paradox, since the body is going to be shiny as brand new ... maybe leaving just the engine and gearbox with the signs or also other parts? Theoretically the other parts can be changed, just the engine and gearbox must have the same numbers, right? so the answer seems to be easy, furthermore, considering the heavy loads of a track oriented car, mostly in monoball, with suffrage rigid mounts, maybe it is a no brainer and better go for used like new parts. |
Honestly the gearbox and engine are superficial IMO. These are sealed to prevent leakage of oil so they kept the water out otherwise these parts would be toast. The structure is still there but the voids are just another place for moisture to get in and contaminants to reside that might create further damage. I don't see the need for filler although I doubt it will have any impact despite how much these engines grow under hard use. Maybe a clear on that might be best and it preserves the story. You could also change out the tail section of the trans and not impact the serial number making it look better. It is possible that the mag helped the engine case. They do use magnesium as Anodes in boilers and hot water heaters to take the brunt of the corrosion, but then again it could be the flow of the water and if one part was sitting in silt vs another and protected by the lack of oxygen. Think the René Dreyfus Bugatti
I would be more concerned about the suspension. If it has corrosion like the trans this could be a concern as it IMO could be a potential for stress risers that might fail under loads. The last thing you would want is a failed component that puts you back in the drink. |
Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16815506)
Honestly the gearbox and engine are superficial IMO. These are sealed to prevent leakage of oil so they kept the water out otherwise these parts would be toast. The structure is still there but the voids are just another place for moisture to get in and contaminants to reside that might create further damage. I don't see the need for filler although I doubt it will have any impact despite how much these engines grow under hard use. Maybe a clear on that might be best and it preserves the story. You could also change out the tail section of the trans and not impact the serial number making it look better. It is possible that the mag helped the engine case. They do use magnesium as Anodes in boilers and hot water heaters to take the brunt of the corrosion, but then again it could be the flow of the water and if one part was sitting in silt vs another and protected by the lack of oxygen. Think the René Dreyfus Bugatti https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HxfNbkHMmg
I would be more concerned about the suspension. If it has corrosion like the trans this could be a concern as it IMO could be a potential for stress risers that might fail under loads. The last thing you would want is a failed component that puts you back in the drink. Thank you so much Cobalt for your contribution and advice, after having read your words everything is clearer to me and wow... The story of that Bugatti, they point out the exact feeling I was having before starting the rebuilt, somehow a part of me was telling me not to touch it, to leave it the way mother nature finished the original Porsche creation... But now it's too late and probably if I did it, this was the right choice for me. I think I will ask for a transparent layer resistant to high temperature to be applied to the gearbox and engine cases, while the auxiliary subframes front and rear will be changed for used but corrosion free ones. I still have to find the gearbox carrier and the rear subframe cross member, plus the front A-arms left and right side members and front cross member. If someone here could suggest where I can find these parts at a convenient price, it would be very appreciated. |
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FYI I see they were welding the seat frame in place. Although you can see a crack forming to the frame upper left which I would have repaired now and would also have the two on the right tacked in place to the lower frame and additional weld around the two hole seat bolt plate on top right of the frame. The seat frame has a tendency to break apart from these areas after years of hard driving. I am not sure what they did will cure this. I had this happen to one of my cars and seen others with similar issues although all of us who had it happen are shall we say larger than the average individual.
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Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16821455)
FYI I see they were welding the seat frame in place. Although you can see a crack forming to the frame upper left which I would have repaired now and would also have the two on the right tacked in place to the lower frame and additional weld around the two hole seat bolt plate on top right of the frame. The seat frame has a tendency to break apart from these areas after years of hard driving. I am not sure what they did will cure this. I had this happen to one of my cars and seen others with similar issues although all of us who had it happen are shall we say larger than the average individual.
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Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16821460)
It's not a crack, it is a marking pen sign
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Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16821461)
I'll take your word for it. Sure looks like a crack in the picture. I have seen them crack just where the mark is and the entire individual towers on the right break free or the plate that holds the mounting plate come completely off. If you don't plan to heavily track it you will be fine but I figured while you are in there. ;)
Do you mean here? I already sent the picture to the Coachbuilder |
Yes and along the top right mount where the bent plate is welded on three sides These welds do break given time and stress. The front seems to be more of an issue than the back of the seat for some reason.
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Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16821476)
Yes and along the top right mount where the bent plate is welded on three sides These welds do break given time and stress. The front seems to be more of an issue than the back of the seat for some reason.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...23999eee19.jpg |
Finally engine and gearbox housings back home from the grinding shop. :rockon:
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9ff3891735.jpg Engine block - Right side https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f668809ab2.jpg Engine block - Left side |
Nice. Those are new studs?
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Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16840501)
Nice. Those are new studs?
Someone in the Porsche world told me they can be tighten twice... The first time was when Porsche assembled the engine, the second it's gonna be soon |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16840504)
Nope, aged underwater.
Someone in the Porsche world told me they can be tighten twice... The first time was when Porsche assembled the engine, the second it's gonna be soon |
Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16840530)
Not sure if it was an engineer or sales person telling you that but essentially any fastener that is rotated 90 degrees after it is torqued is stretched to yield. Once a fastener has been stretched to yield it is permanently deformed and shouldn't be reused. I have seen people use them over IMO it is a risky move and studs are cheap.
I don't knkw what he was talking about, but he told me later 993 studs need to be changed, earlier can be tighten twice. maybe in the forum there is someone that knows more about this specific thing, but it seems you are the only one reading this post, Cobalt, sometimes I find this very funny, I must say. And I don't think anyone can say this post isn't about technic, but maybe it is just the way rennlist works, but I cannot open a new thread for every single specific thing I am investigating...otherwise now I would have opened more than 100 posts. Cheers! :cheers: |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16840620)
I..it seems you are the only one reading this post, Cobalt..
It is a truly epic Build and Journey you are on, it is a great read, and an inspirational journey..! |
Try and possible error risk for such a little amount of money?
Especially on such crucial point? General rule is new studs when opened ... my (very experienced) mechanic is doing that right now to my '94 engine. |
Originally Posted by kingroon
(Post 16840768)
I'm sure a lot of RLers are reading this post, I am one of them ;) but I would rather Like than give an Opinion or Misinformation..! I simply don't know enough to reply to such technical posts :)
It is a truly epic Build and Journey you are on, it is a great read, and an inspirational journey..! I love following this saga, but don't have the chops to comment on the technical matters. It doesn't mean I'm not reading every post on this thread! |
1 Attachment(s)
voila
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Originally Posted by geolab
(Post 16840829)
voila
does not mention anything about the old ones or general replacement when used ? 'The new cylinder head stud can be used for individual replacement. It is not necessary to replace the cylinder head stud in groups' For me, at least it doesn't says you can reuse them? Any further info available? . |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16840620)
but it seems you are the only one reading this post, Cobalt
posts = 437 views = 107,248 ...so there are quite a few people keeping track of your progress. Keep up the good work! :cheers: |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16840620)
...he tested the studs with a magnet and he said that from the m.y. 96 porsche changed the studs, until then the studs were the same as for the 964 engines. I don't knkw what he was talking about, but he told me later 993 studs need to be changed,
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... never to old to learn new things ...
Yes, the document answers the question about the new studs, so he is right on that. Still the question is if old or new studs have to be replaced or can be reused? As an older guy, i assumed simple that is still the case as it was always on older engines. However ... Just read through the workshop manual, to my surprise, it doesn't mentions anything about replacement of studs for reassembling. And the manual is in general very specific about replacements of parts like nuts and bolts! Still would put new ones ... :thumbup: |
Originally Posted by Holger3.2
(Post 16840959)
...
Still would put new ones ... :thumbup: me too , what else a micro corrosion as tiny as a needle tip will crack the stud in two |
Originally Posted by kingroon
(Post 16840768)
I'm sure a lot of RLers are reading this post, I am one of them ;) but I would rather Like than give an Opinion or Misinformation..! I simply don't know enough to reply to such technical posts :)
It is a truly epic Build and Journey you are on, it is a great read, and an inspirational journey..! I quite understand material properties, but experience most of the times overcomes theory. what here is suggested is to change the studs because at the tightening torque they have been tightened and the stress they have been charged during the working cycles (material expansions and contractions), they would have overcome the elastic phase...but they basically should be torqued to stay in the elastic phase, not the anlestic, because otherwise they would go towards a stress breakdown while engine is running...so there is some space to tighten them again. So, I must assume the prescribed tightening torque when the engine was built by porsche was designed to make the studs work in the elastic part of the material. it is an unpredictable thing: who suggest to change them is for staying on the safe side, avoiding uncertainty. but there are other uncertainity: are you sure the studs produced nowadays are same quality of the ones installed back in 1995? Secondary, but not really, removing the old studs, it is a delicate process, while now the studs are exactly in the same position where Porsche installed them. I think retightening would shear the material closer to the anelastic condition, butnoone can say how much. But these are just my thoughts shared |
Originally Posted by geolab
(Post 16840986)
me too , what else
a micro corrosion as tiny as a needle tip will crack the stud in two |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16841004)
:eek:
don't take my advice! porsche produced Dilavar head studs, and at one point, they issued the technical bulletin and started using steel with the document above but for strong engines RS CUP etc, they produced a new dilavar stud TODAY, porsche germany superceeded the steel head studs for all 993 to dilavar studs if it was me .... your magnetic studs who sat in water are not good anymore , a microscopic grain of rust in the metal, will pop the stud, since your car was in water use the technical bulletin for measuring the studs 993.101.172.02 is magnetic and 993.101.170.51 non magnetic dilivar, only one left now to buy mind you dilavar steel alloy will rust too, and your mechanic has an old experience, and I am sure at least he knows good 993 stuff. But things change |
I've built a couple 993 motors and have seen a bunch more getting built, and have never heard of changing out the head studs. I've never heard of changing out head studs on any air-cooled 911 engine unless they're the old-school dilavar material, and those get changed not because they've been torqued but because they corrode and then break.
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Originally Posted by geolab
(Post 16841096)
your mechanic must have read a few posts here , and I don't assume I am a mechanic to give you advice
don't take my advice! porsche produced Dilavar head studs, and at one point, they issued the technical bulletin and started using steel with the document above but for strong engines RS CUP etc, they produced a new dilavar stud TODAY, porsche germany superceeded the steel head studs for all 993 to dilavar studs if it was me .... your magnetic studs who sat in water are not good anymore , a microscopic grain of rust in the metal, will pop the stud, since your car was in water use the technical bulletin for measuring the studs 993.101.172.02 is magnetic and 993.101.170.51 non magnetic dilivar, only one left now to buy mind you dilavar steel alloy will rust too, and your mechanic has an old experience, and I am sure at least he knows good 993 stuff. But things change I've built a couple 993 motors and have seen a bunch more getting built, and have never heard of changing out the head studs. I've never heard of changing out head studs on any air-cooled 911 engine unless they're the old-school dilavar material, and those get changed not because they've been torqued but because they corrode and then break. So after your very technical and statistical contributes, I knew what to google, and I found a very interesting post on the pelican Forum about HE and Chlorid effect over Dilavar and Austenitic Steel, and the impossibility to check one by one the studs, because basically the defect would be practically invisible. Experience seems to say steel is much better than old dilavar, whike new dilavar probably is as good as steel, so I am asking myself: approaching the change of all the studs, why should one go for dilavar instead of steel? probably the mechanic checked the studs with a magnet because late 993 models had the new version of dilavar studs... Now, the statistic says that no steel studs had broken after reusing them, but mine would be the only one that would have been underwater for more than 4 years, there is no stat available for such a case, it is a single case file. If it were a standad engine rebuild with steel studs, after a careful check of their condition, I probably would choose not to change them without worries. In this case, it is the first time one jumps from an airplane with the first ever prototype of a parachute...the unknown after almost 20 years of perfectly running service is not in the material of the studs, but in the 4 years environmental exposure underwater. I think we could try also to figure it out, back analysing the effect of the water of that precise river over other components of the car, to maybe desume something regarding the studs status, more than a visual or instrumental inspection, an environmental one, from the way other components got damaged. But it would be also important to know what is the price of very good replacement studs set, in both the versions, steel from a very good producer (probably my first choice) and dilavar from Porsche. I am still asking myself what is the point of dilavar: is it lighter, is it more elastic? - Magnesium melted, but all that was in electrolitic contact with it, i.e. the engine block and also the studs, was no less than perfect - The crankshaft has no sign of corrosion, but just something on the coupling flange where it mates the flywheel (the part out of the block, inside the clutch/flywheel housing) - The rods, each one of them, are perfect - So are the camshafts and the shafts, all made of steel. - And the studs, all the studs, are looking like brand new. When I opened and disassembled the engine, the seats of the nuts, where fullfilled of silt almost as hard as stone, and after having carefully removed it from each seat, I could untighten the studs just using the wrench, no heating. The threads of the nuts didnt melt, they showed just a bit of corrosion, I was surprised about this specific aspect, the torx insert was working perfectly. The same ease was while removing the other studs that take the two halves of the engine block together: are they made of steel or dilavar? - The alluminum alloy of the engine block has been very few corroded, I would say something very superficial and in very few points, while the gearbox housing a bit more (more surface interested and in few points a bit deeper). So I made myself the idea that aluminum and steel parts that were in very good electrolitic contact with magnesium parts (engine fan and fan housing) had no corrosion at all (steel) or very superficial corrosion (aluminum), but between engine and gearbox there is a sealing, so the corrosion was a bit more. The other surpising part is that the knock sensor magnesium mounting brackets are perfect: this is very strange, and it could mean only that while engine fan was exposed to water flow, they were not, and they are in the lower part of the engine. so, if the magnesium mounting brackets are perfect and are the closer part to the lower and deep part of the engine, where crankshaft and rods are perfect, camshafts are perfect, why should the studs not be the same? The gears of the gearbox had cementation damaged in multiple points, as much as crown wheel, and the conical part mating it, while the primary and secondary shafts, the forks, shafts, etc. are without corrosion. they started to have some surface rust when and if exposed to the air by the disassembling process. Synchro rings looks perfect, as much as the dog teeth. But I remember that when I removed the studs, almost 2 years ago, they didn't have any sign of surface rust at all. The other question is: if one or more studs fail, what is the consequence? Is there some kind of warning, symptom, noise that is produced when and if this happens? |
Wow
didn't realized that a discussion about studs could get 'which oil is the right one' qualities :corn: I scrolled through other forums (mostly in German) on this topic and was surprised about the discussions there. Its mostly about older engines but often also with remarks to the 'newer' 993 studs from Porsche. What would be the right or wrong thing to do is mostly spread like oil recommendations. Also i was surprised that stud failure isn't that rear as I thought. Quintessence is mostly reached on the source of broken studs, its when the car is not or only seldom used, its simple corrosion; seems this mostly on Dilavar studs(the old ones!)! Another point in regards to steel or Dilavar is also the magnesium case of older SC's ... but for other reasons. Unfortunately, there are no hints what effect such failed stud has to the engine or how you would recognize it. If for renewal, most of the guys go back to steel studs, but a lot also to Porsche's 'new' Dilavar studs. There are even recommendations for steel for the 'low' studs and Dilavar for the 'high' ones. However, I didn't bother to ask what they mean with that... So in my opinion, everybody should do what he thinks he is most comfortable with. For myself, I did new studs on my rebuild (which is hopefully finished soon) Edit: just talked to my mechanic, he recommends Dilavar only, and (that's a new one in the discussion) exchange studs on opened engines if the studs are older than 15 years. |
My intention wasn't to offend or mislead anyone. I was just trying to help. I know there are many following. I started reading this thread in disbelief but have been intrigued and impressed by what you have found and clearly the results speak for themselves. I have seen earlier 964 head studs fail there is a noise associated with it. Sounds like a rattling although it has been a long time since I have seen one so far only on the earlier 964 engines with the early style heads made from a different alloy which might have expanded differently. The last one was on a 90 C4 engine I owned and it had 4 broken studs at 83k miles. When removed there were no signs of corrosion or anything I would consider a visible stress riser. I had a set of 96 993 head studs I pulled from my 96 993 engine and I switched to ARP and had thought long about using the later 996 head studs that are threaded nearly 100%. The picture is from a 996 Cup car engine you can see the studs I was considering. This engine has Ti connecting rods which will be replaced as they age out over time.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...27738b260.jpeg I quite understand material properties, but experience most of the times overcomes theory. what here is suggested is to change the studs because at the tightening torque they have been tightened and the stress they have been charged during the working cycles (material expansions and contractions), they would have overcome the elastic phase...but they basically should be torqued to stay in the elastic phase, not the anlestic, because otherwise they would go towards a stress breakdown while engine is running...so there is some space to tighten them again. I guess let's discuss the concept. Basic definition. Torque-To-Yield Bolts Once they reach this zone, they maintain a more precise and consistent level of clamping force across the entire head-to-block mating surface. The bolts are stretched into their elastic range, and in many cases, the stretching approaches the bolts' elastic limit, permanently stretching it. When you install your connecting rods the bolts are torqued and rotated 90 degrees. These are clearly stretch to yield and are required to be replaced per the engine manual. So why wouldn't that same principle apply here? I use a gage to install the ARP bolts and they have indents on the top and bottom so you can measure the elongation. I agree the manual doesn't say to replace the head studs which I found odd. There are threads on Pelican saying no problem just reuse them although I personally would not and know of rebuilds that a stud broke after a few thousand miles of reusing the original studs. It might have been a fluke but why chance it the cost is so minimal. When I inspected the old studs there was what I saw as a slight deformation of the stud and located differently along the length. Part of my prior life I spent a lot of time pulling tensile test bars to verify the yield, tensile and elongation of a specific material. Unfortunately there is no way to determine if any elongation has occurred unless we measure, install and remove a new stud and measure it again. To me the indent would suggest plastic deformation from how it was manufactured. Weather this was from tightening or hard use being an N/A converted to turbocharged engine I couldn't say. Why Porsche chose to do what they did I couldn't tell you. I understand you want to reuse as much as possible although IMO for the small expense associated I personally wouldn't reuse them and see it as cheap insurance. Clearly some materials were well preserved and others did not survive 4 years of being under water. How this has impacted the studs would be hard to tell. We see how the other materials were affected and I suspect on a microscopic level there will be evidence of some impact. I am sorry to take this off to a tangent, Just a suggestion I thought might be helpful. |
Thank you Cobalt, I don't understand if you are referring to me when you say that your intention wasn't to offend or mislead, I didn't get your words that way at all.
It is possible the way I express myself in English sometimes isn't correct, some other time it is also possible I am sometimes too much direct, but I am here in a very simple and for real way, but not just to accept and that's it, I would like to understand and take a decision conscious of what I am going through. When you say ARP, is it a producer or an achronym? The studs are now steel, if I replace them, as a consequence of what I've read so far, I think I am more for brand new steel one instead of dilavar version, and I have no idea what's the cost of the 2 solutions Maybe there are different types made of steel? What are the other studs you were talking about, upper part, lower part?! |
This might be a useless suggestion, but I wonder if you were to contact Porsche Classic Italy if they would assist with technical advice on this topic (and others)?
Restoring and rebuilding older cars is, after all, their business. |
ARP is a common replacement stud we use here. These are the case through bolts.
Some swear by them others feel they are unnecessary. But they sure are pretty. ;) https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...224cd53c6.jpeg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2a8052fd0.jpeg |
Originally Posted by SpeedyC2
(Post 16842975)
This might be a useless suggestion, but I wonder if you were to contact Porsche Classic Italy if they would assist with technical advice on this topic (and others)?
Restoring and rebuilding older cars is, after all, their business. And I souldn't say anything else. But... there is way of saying "the whole world is country" Then there is another: "country you go, custom you find" I was able to see that German diesel and petrol fuel are much better than those refined and sold in Italy. Yet the specifications are the same identical, the European ones (looong sad smile). At least they should, and the engine, it doesn't mind, when you cross the Italian border and enter Germany, you fill up and the car begins to consume less and go more...wow, maybe she is happy to be back where she was produced (I was there with a BMW and a Mercedes, both were veeery happy, I must assume). Here (in Italy) I think this happens in any sector (corruption at the highest levels, controllers that are curropted, and so on): in every country no sector can avoid to deal with the culture, society, ways of doing, of thinking, of the people who make it live and interact with the public, customers. What can I say: from this point of view I don't feel Italian at all. (and this is another reason why I am here instead of going to the local dealer, I don't want outside and negative interference). Or maybe I am one of the few true italian still surviving...sort of "native italian" :typing: You turn on the gas to make the coffee and the water takes a long time to boil ... why? Could it be that the gas is diluted with air? But the meter turns, it doesn't see if it is air, gas, or a mix of the two ... someone is gaining more money and who is deputed to control it is in the baltic sea on premium vacation... Then, going to the concrete: when you have proof that the local dealer gets the bodywork done outside, the work on the air-cooled engines done outside, when one knows that this is the way the carousel runs (I think about the F1 carousel meanwhile as well), why should you bring the car at the dealership?! I think the commitment of a specialized workshop is worth much, much more, in which the owner of the shop takes responsibility for what he and his co-workers do and whose customers exist not because of a shiny badge on the roof, but because of the quality of the work produced accross years. I hope I was clear: for me Porsche eventually acts as a spare parts supplier, perhaps. I value work over bling bling, well done work, possibly with passion. |
Originally Posted by Churchill
(Post 16841866)
I've built a couple 993 motors and have seen a bunch more getting built, and have never heard of changing out the head studs. I've never heard of changing out head studs on any air-cooled 911 engine unless they're the old-school dilavar material, and those get changed not because they've been torqued but because they corrode and then break.
the problem is later, steel studs on 911 hot or racing engines have to be retorqued every now and then. Dilavar has the same thermal expansion rate as the engine case, a lot less prone to retorque . new dilavar is protected from rust, and threaded the majority of the stud |
Originally Posted by geolab
(Post 16843282)
this is 100% true, but when you are building the engine, your problem is not the steel studs whilst 'building the engine'
the problem is later, steel studs on 911 hot or racing engines have to be retorqued every now and then. Dilavar has the same thermal expansion rate as the engine case, a lot less prone to retorque . new dilavar is protected from rust, and threaded the majority of the stud The more I read, the more I think not to change the studs. But at the same time I am willing to know what would be the price for a global stud steel and also dilavar replacement, it is not clear how much one should invest for it. The car will be tracked, but its not going to be a race car: already with the silver carrera I just make two or three rounds and then cool down engine and brakes one or two laps and then box. I always had an eye on engine oil temperature, and exactly for this reason this rebuild will have a second oil cooler like the cup cars had. this has to be an engine rebuild, not for racing, just something made the right way, with crankshaft balance, change of all internal components, something that an air cooled porsche mechanic should be able to do easily. If later I will be able to go for a second engine, in that case, I think I will need stronger components, but let's see how much these studs cost. Then what about the bolts and nuts for the connecting rods, they must be replaced as well? |
If it were my engine, I'd replace the studs because of being submerged.
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I am willing to know what would be the price for a global stud steel and also dilavar replacement, it is not clear how much one should invest for it. same with Porsche tag - about double ... steel ~ 30% less all +/- xx% |
Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16842980)
ARP is a common replacement stud we use here. These are the case through bolts.
Some swear by them others feel they are unnecessary. But they sure are pretty. ;) https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...224cd53c6.jpeg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2a8052fd0.jpeg |
Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16842980)
ARP is a common replacement stud we use here. These are the case through bolts.
Some swear by them others feel they are unnecessary. But they sure are pretty. ;) https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...224cd53c6.jpeg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...2a8052fd0.jpeg But yeah- i'd replace the bolts after being under water for so long. Shear one and you've got perpetual oil leak/burn issues.... |
Well, I've been following you on IG for some time, now I found this thread! I'll need to take some time to read through it...
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FYI the ARP studs are going in my 993 N/A engine that I have replaced all the internals and will be twin turbo charging. I estimate 500 WHP on a mustang dyno depending on tune and could see much more if I decided to but I think 500 is a bit overkill already. The ARP actually ended up being less expensive than the factory parts.
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ARP Studs small price for great piece of mind. Most builders here in the states would not take the chance for a problem down the road, the cost of a 2nd tear down will far exceed the price of ARP bolts. Not sure how does one know if a 2nd use had been done by a previous owner or not on a 20+ year old engine?
A great thread to follow, best of luck with whatever you decide. Your passion for this project is clear. Thanks for sharing your journey. |
A great thread to follow, best of luck with whatever you decide. Your passion for this project is clear. Thanks for sharing your journey. Not sure how does one know if a 2nd use had been done by a previous owner or not on a 20+ year old engine? ARP Studs small price for great piece of mind. Most builders here in the states would not take the chance for a problem down the road, the cost of a 2nd tear down will far exceed the price of ARP bolts. Is this the right kit? https://www.design911.com/Engine-hea...PR/prod139719/ Is this kit offered for a good price? I was also thinking that there are other studs and bolts that are there to take the 2 engine halves together, pointed by yellow arrows in the picture, and I am also wondering if you think there are other structural studs to be changed together with the one pointed by the blue arrow and eventually with the ones pointed by the yellow arrow. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...e0d9964ec2.jpg I think I need advices what and where to buy what, because on design911 the dilavar head studs set cost 50€ less than the ARP kit, then there are many different choices and there is also the studs kit for the engine case https://www.design911.com/Porsche-96...it/prod129184/ But it isn't from ARP, is it important to change these as well pr not as juch as the head studs? Then I noticed the original ones aren't fully threaded, what's the point of using threaded studs in a part of the engine where the studs are supposed to pass through a hole? |
After a speech with a mechanic, he suggested to change the head studs with the new dilavar, and he told me it is not necessary to change the crank case studs.
Now I am figuring out what would be better for an engine rebuild to original specs, whether the ARP steel studs, or the dilavar that have same thermal expansion coefficient of the aluminum alloy of the engine itself. the man at the grinder shop didnt tell me anything about the rods studs, should I replace them as well? |
I’d stick with steel. Dilavar was a weak point on 3.2 motors. They were the ones that typically failed.
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Originally Posted by Ed Hughes
(Post 16851738)
I’d stick with steel. Dilavar was a weak point on 3.2 motors. They were the ones that typically failed.
- the last dilavar version should be problem free, and should not require to check the tightening, because dilavar studs expand and contract same as aluminum alloy parts. - steel studs are safer in regard of corrosion, but the tightening must be checked. The thing I don't understand is: if my 95 engine was originally assembled using steel studs, who checked the tightening after a certain amount of km? I never heard about this specific aspect, i.e. checking the tightening torque periodically. So this should mean that porsche assembled engine that during the working cicles aren't tightened properly? Uhm...I dont know... Another point is: if the head studs of my engine were originally steel, and if steel is less sensitive to corrosion than old dilavar, the real reason to change them is not corrosion, but the fact it is the second time the studs are tighten, i.e. the material would shift closer to the anelastic behaviour, which isn't something welcome at all. but if one should replace them, they should be replaced with steel ones, the new dilavar studs should be intended like an upgrade/update. but again, many are not convinced it is a good idea... I think that a very important part is the application, how extreme will be the engine: in my case the engine will be simply rebuilt to original specs. Same valves, same springs, same rods, same crankshaft and camshafts, etc. same rev limiter, same injectors, i dont know...this argument about the studs sounds a bit like guessing the sex of angels... The more I understand, the more I find myself stuck Then someone says, go with brand new dilavar ones, but then no, another one says, better ARP steel. It is evidently not a matter of money, there is 300 euro difference between the two choices. and what about the studs for the connecting rods? I've been told that I don't need to change them, same as crank case studs. But then of course there is the uncertainty regarding the 4 years underwater. I must confess I am tempted to leave all the studs and reuse them, maybe I am prone to risks, maybe this engine liked chianti wine, fresh air and not water...a very purist and radical air cooled engine ? ! ? :icon107: |
I don't know of anyone, outside of probably someone with a high-strung race motor, checking torque on head studs/nuts. I also believe most pro builders building stock and non-stock would go with something like an ARP steel stud. Don't know if he's still in business, or does them for 993 motors, but Henry at Supertec had a custom stud he had machined with some optimization on thread pitch for the head nuts. I used them when I built my 3.2 motor into a 3.4. I thought his science was sound. They were also steel. While Porsche's intent on the thermal expansion of Dilavar sounded good on paper, in reality it's another one of those things they probably could have not done and been fine. Magnesium cases, thermal reactors, etc all fall into the same category, IMO.
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16851783)
So, pro & cons typically and also theoretically assumed:
- the last dilavar version should be problem free, and should not require to check the tightening, because dilavar studs expand and contract same as aluminum alloy parts. - steel studs are safer in regard of corrosion, but the tightening must be checked. The thing I don't understand is: if my 95 engine was originally assembled using steel studs, who checked the tightening after a certain amount of km? I never heard about this specific aspect, i.e. checking the tightening torque periodically. So this should mean that porsche assembled engine that during the working cicles aren't tightened properly? Uhm...I dont know... Another point is: if the head studs of my engine were originally steel, and if steel is less sensitive to corrosion than old dilavar, the real reason to change them is not corrosion, but the fact it is the second time the studs are tighten, i.e. the material would shift closer to the anelastic behaviour, which isn't something welcome at all. but if one should replace them, they should be replaced with steel ones, the new dilavar studs should be intended like an upgrade/update. but again, many are not convinced it is a good idea... I think that a very important part is the application, how extreme will be the engine: in my case the engine will be simply rebuilt to original specs. Same valves, same springs, same rods, same crankshaft and camshafts, etc. same rev limiter, same injectors, i dont know...this argument about the studs sounds a bit like guessing the sex of angels... The more I understand, the more I find myself stuck Then someone says, go with brand new dilavar ones, but then no, another one says, better ARP steel. It is evidently not a matter of money, there is 300 euro difference between the two choices. and what about the studs for the connecting rods? I've been told that I don't need to change them, same as crank case studs. But then of course there is the uncertainty regarding the 4 years underwater. I must confess I am tempted to leave all the studs and reuse them, maybe I am prone to risks, maybe this engine liked chianti wine, fresh air and not water...a very purist and radical air cooled engine ? ! ? :icon107: |
Oh, rod bolts are one of those "while you're in there" no-brainers, IMO. ARP bits would help ensure the bottom end to be more bulletproof, and are insurance in case of an over-rev. Case studs are pretty benign, and would lend themselves to visual inspection. But, as the saying goes, "in for a penny, in for a pound".
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Originally Posted by Ed Hughes
(Post 16851897)
Oh, rod bolts are one of those "while you're in there" no-brainers, IMO. ARP bits would help ensure the bottom end to be more bulletproof, and are insurance in case of an over-rev. Case studs are pretty benign, and would lend themselves to visual inspection. But, as the saying goes, "in for a penny, in for a pound".
In that case they would be: - ARP steel studs for engine head - ARP studs for connecting rods Should I change the studs for the crank case halves as well? Is there a kit including all the studs for o total replacement? Removing the old studs and inserting the new ones is maybe a delicate process? |
Yes on the head studs and rod bolts. As I noted, case studs would lend themselves to visual inspection. I'm not sure about a kit for case studs-but there may be. They aren't crazy expensive, last time I bought any-but who knows nowadays? If they aren't expensive, it could be peace of mind. They typically come out with heat, but I'm not sure if there are corrosion issues with yours.
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Originally Posted by Ed Hughes
(Post 16851969)
Yes on the head studs and rod bolts. As I noted, case studs would lend themselves to visual inspection. I'm not sure about a kit for case studs-but there may be. They aren't crazy expensive, last time I bought any-but who knows nowadays? If they aren't expensive, it could be peace of mind. They typically come out with heat, but I'm not sure if there are corrosion issues with yours.
Very probably this car has been driven in a very tranquil way and very well maintained as well, before being submerged. I will checke again all the studs searching for signs of corrosion. The steel engine head studs look like new |
Checking & cleaning & measuring with Vernier Caliber & Considering
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ab1d6c2b59.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0e9ce24945.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...de22b85f9f.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...664c62b038.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...70eb341dcf.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...510bdaa398.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...6c4390e30e.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...83285d64c8.jpg I am wondering if the rockerarms sleigh has some kind of surface treatment or not. Few of them show sort of stains, so I was eventually thinking to make them DLC treat, but if I pass a finger on the surface I don't feel any sort of alteration. Eventually I have available the 964 rocker arms in perfect shape, I stopped thinking of making this very desirable downgrade because I really didn't understand what is needed to make a proper reliable conversion to mechanical lifters. The craftsman at the grinding shop told me the connecting rod bearings on both sides are in perfect shape and size, so much that he wouldn't change them. |
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...84153cd911.jpg
Do these surfaces have some kind of surface treatment or not? one can rework the surface, without reducing the surface strength? would it be adviceable going for a DLC treatment after having reworked/prepared the surface and if yes, how many micron of layer thickness |
Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16688933)
I particularly am not a fan of the hydraulic lifters. They eliminate the mechanical sound the engine makes. If you are lazy about changing your oil it will cause issues and require a second filter to prevent issues. I have seen them need replacing as early as 60k miles which is about the same expense as having a valve lash done every 15-20k. Although the upper valve cover on the 993 requires the removal of the power steering pump to access the right upper valve cover making valve lash adjustments difficult in the car. The earlier engines only had a 6 nut vs 8 bolt pattern to hold them in place.
I had to have the tops of the rockers machined flat removing the area where the hydraulic lifter hat is. Had custom made sleeves with a flange and step to match the internal contour of the rocker and threads to hold the tappet in place. then the remianing holes where the oil that feed the lifter welded shut to prevent any oil pressure loss. It was a bit of work but a huge savings over the other options. The 993 forged rockes modified to mechanical saves about .8 pounds of weight vs the cast units. But what if I use 964 original rockers togheter with 993 rocker shafts? Do I need anything else ? I mean, the 964 rockers don't have the hole inside to feed the hydraulic, because they are mechanic. nothing to drill, nothing to seal or weld. The 993 shafts are designed to go together with oil delivery system of the 993 camshaft housing, right? Do I need to modify anything else? The secondary oil circuit with secondary oil filter can remain? I noticed that the 964 rockers have a bearing inside, while 993 rockers don't have it... |
The best way to do this is to use the older style rockers and have a figure-8 oil groove machined into the bushings. It's what I did, after a lot of research.
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figure-8 oil groove machined into the bushing |
Sorry this pic isn't better, but you can see the modification (and I was wrong, it's not a figure-8, it's just a groove). The big difference between 993 rockers and the earlier type is the 993 rockers bushings are lubricated through the rocker shafts. If you look at a stock 993 rocker arm, it has a groove in the bushing to accept oil flow from the rocker shaft.
So all you're doing here is adding that groove to the bushing of an earlier style rocker arm (John Dougherty did mine, but I'm sure there are shops in Italy that can do it, it's easy). You'll still use the 993 rocker shaft. No other mods necessary, and you'll have perfect oil pressure. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...5d0eda3e69.png |
Thank you Churchill, this is a great help for me.
Monday I am going to put all the parts together to see what is missing and I'll make a comparison following your input. |
If you press in new bushings nothing is needed for the earlier style although if you try to use them in stock form the splash feed holes need to be sealed otherwise you will lose oil pressure. IIRC the bushings are only around $8 each. WHat it costs to have the machining done varies. The 993 rockers didn't use bushings since they were oil fed under pressure. The splash feed need the bushings otherwise cold startup might see steel against steel and no oil. I have seen the early style wear by about .030" when not adjusted at proper intervals and not properly started after long periods of sitting. The only advantage to modifying the 993 parts was the 1 pound or so of weight savings in moving parts. If you plan to up the revs this helps.
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Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16860741)
The only advantage to modifying the 993 parts was the 1 pound or so of weight savings in moving parts. If you plan to up the revs this helps.
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Originally Posted by Churchill
(Post 16861042)
The bigger advantage is that you can use whatever cams you want. Hydraulic lifters, at least in the 993's, don't play well with cams beyond RS spec. I'm using stock induction but the cams required a switch to the old-school mechanical rockers.
there wouldn't be any advantage with stock camshafts? the part of the rocker arms that interacts with the camshaft has a surface treatment or is it just same as metal the rest of the rocker arm? If you press in new bushings nothing is needed for the earlier style although if you try to use them in stock form the splash feed holes need to be sealed otherwise you will lose oil pressure. IIRC the bushings are only around $8 each From what I got from Churchill, if I would like to use them on my 993 engine, I need to rework the inner side of the bearings, replicating same groove that is present on the 993 lifters that are without bearings and use the 993 rocker shafts. is there something more to know? What can I expect from 964 mechanical rocker arms mod but with stock camshafts, stock pre varioram heads and varioram intake? Would it produce some kind of improvement? |
No, no improvement at all. You only backdate the rockers if you need to because of other mods. There is no performance gain on stock or even RS cams. I would love to be able to run hydraulic rockers on my 993, they're better than the old style.
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Sorry the mechanical rockers if you look closely have two holes used to lubricate the bearing and shaft. Splash oil is fed through these holes and in the earlier engines there is a feed tube that sprays oil towards the rockers to feed oil through these holes vs via the shaft. If you use stock rockers with stock holes on 993 shafts you will lose oil pressure through them. Pressing in new bushings will close these holes.
I agree about the cams I thought that was already discussed but could have been a different thread. Otherwise weight was the other upside by modifying the stock 993 rockers. |
Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16863453)
Sorry the mechanical rockers if you look closely have two holes used to lubricate the bearing and shaft. Splash oil is fed through these holes and in the earlier engines there is a feed tube that sprays oil towards the rockers to feed oil through these holes vs via the shaft. If you use stock rockers with stock holes on 993 shafts you will lose oil pressure through them. Pressing in new bushings will close these holes.
I agree about the cams I thought that was already discussed but could have been a different thread. Otherwise weight was the other upside by modifying the stock 993 rockers. Meanwhile I was taking some shots, placing parts, nuts, bolts, on the table to see what is still missing... Mainly small parts to get ready for engine rebuild https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...88a9272188.jpg And then one to the ABS hydraulic unit with ABD next to what looks like its gemini, from 94 BMW Serie 5, which I fact was equipped with ESP as well...the box is totally identical, what I still have to understand is if the electric rotor has exactly the same characteristics, but I bet they are. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...72d52ea12b.jpg Bosch managed the situation not to make two exactly identical units just by giving different Diameter of the screw at the two threaded seats that go on the left and right rear axle, where the two cylinders that seem to have the function of pressure reducers must be inserted. (I will see if I can reuse them). I doesn't make any sense to me that the BMW unit had two different diameters for the rear brakes... While Porsche had same (the smaller one) diameter. The fact is a used Porsche 993 unit costs no less than 900 euro, a BMW unit in perfect conditions costs less than 100 and there are hundreds more available. The only think is to move the cylindrical barrels from a unit to the other, by inserting a reduction of the bigger diameter on the BMW unit. I will try it to see if it works, I bet it'll do. Meanwhile I'll be searching for a used unit as well |
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c243800fac.jpg
Pre-varioram throttle body ugly, but in perfectly working condition https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0e9862ff10.jpg Secondary oil filter housing, ugly as well and totally reusable, but I will change it I am not going to reuse the original pre-varioram throttle body (since I'll use the complete varioram intake), although it is in perfectly working condition, but it looks exactly as bad as the secondary oil filter housing... I am not going to reuse none of such demaged parts, so I am considering to change also the camshaft housings with used but in perfect condition ones. Basically the aluminum engine parts I'll use for the rebuild, apart from the crankcase, which has a very mild pitting (thank you magnesium fan housing!) , are corrosion free, because they will come from donor engines. The steel parts, like crankshaft, camshafts, rods, pins, rocker arms, valves, springs, most of the studs, are all from the original engine and are totally corrosion free: so they have been checked, eventually revised (rocker arms need to) and reinstalled. I am going to replace the head and connecting rods steel studs and bolts with the ones from ARP, while the crankcase studs will be reused. All the contact bearings will be changed (although they look like new), as much as the piston rings, all the rubber seals, roller bearings, sensors, etc. I am also considering to use stainless steel nuts on the engine case and gearbox perimeter. Do they exist? |
Technical question: is it possible to use the standard steering rack, without coupling it with the hydraulic assistance?
I would like to remove the pump from the engine, and maybe later add an electric one. |
Yes it can be done but you would need to fill the unit and plumb it so the oil can move through the unit. Not quite the same as the manual racks. The electric pump is nice I am using one. The motorsports pump can be had cheap if you know what other cars they are used on. :D
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I am considering to enlarge the track width front and rear to make an RSR tribute of it (as I originally started) instead of an RS CS: I don't remember where, but I read that the front axle subframe must be moved outer, is it true? And if yes, how?
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Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16870236)
Technical question: is it possible to use the standard steering rack, without coupling it with the hydraulic assistance?
I would like to remove the pump from the engine, and maybe later add an electric one. |
Originally Posted by nothingbutgt3
(Post 16880218)
I am considering to enlarge the track width front and rear to make an RSR tribute of it (as I originally started) instead of an RS CS: I don't remember where, but I read that the front axle subframe must be moved outer, is it true? And if yes, how?
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...ng-wide-5.html the holes are already in the tub, should be a cork like object plugging the extra hole. the cross member needs to be drilled, but the correct hole placements are 'ghosted' on the exterior and already drilled inside. |
My jaw is on the floor. Amazing. I read every word and cannot wait for the next update.
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If you mover the longitudinals to the outer setting you will need to rotate the top hats 180 degrees as well. If you leave the upper hats in the narrow body setting you will have excessive negative camber. You will also need a front sway for a widebody car or 964 turbo. Other option is making spacers for the drop links.
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Wow. I think I need a drink, as I just perused this entire thread, and I commend you on such a bold decision to save this vehicle. I also appreciate your desire to reuse as much of the car's parts as possible, and I think in areas that are not super visible, it would most likely be fine as long as parts are cleaned/prepped/inspected to be functional.
That said... I think reusing the wiring harness is a really bad idea. I will use the analogy to speaker wires on hifi stereo systems; many speaker wires have 'clear' insulation, and when you buy the wiring it shows bright clean copper underneath the insulation. I've used this style of wire many times both in home and automotive applications. In automotive applications, the wiring is protected from the elements by being inside doors, behind the dash, and running along the rockers. A few years later, this same wiring will look black/green with oxidation of the copper, from moisture seeping into the 'ends' of the insulation. Even in home theater applications, the humidity in the air will turn that bright shiny copper to a dull black in a few short years. I'm guessing that even if this were just a normal 993 that did not decide to take a swim, you may have wiring harness problems at this point purely from age. I understand your intentions to reuse parts, but I would suggest finding a used fusebox and a brand new wiring harness if possible. Good luck, and thank you for your efforts, this is officially the most insane build I've seen so far in 2020. |
I understand your intentions to reuse parts, but I would suggest finding a used fusebox and a brand new wiring harness if possible. Good luck, and thank you for your efforts, this is officially the most insane build I've seen so far in 2020. Maybe the electrical system is still working fine, but my very point is another one: do I really want to find myself with the car finally all assembled and experience an electrical issue? More than this, I am putting all my mental and resource related effort to make a coherent rebuild of it: the engine will be rebuilt to a 0 hours 0 km specs, same as gearbox, wheels carrier, suspensions, chassis, so the same has to be done for the rest as well. Luckily I finally found the entire wiring harness of a 95 carrera 2, from a donor car that never flew in the water or never got submerged. I should have also found a more convenient source for gesrbox bearings, let's see. But again, I am never going to renounce even to a single gram (or ounce, as you like) of the original quality, which in fact, if it is has to move in some direction, it must be to an higher quality level (or same as brand new), never lower. Just unbolt the power steering fluid lines from it, and plug the bolt holes with shallow 10mm bolts (if I recall correctly). Steering will be heavy. Electric pumps are cool (I ran one for a while) but the factory setup is fine. If you have to buy all the parts anyway, I'd go electric. I need to find the right position where to put the electrical pump, i.e. to find the steel support and the exact position where it should be welded, now that the body is still naked and without any primer. post #72 thru #81 have pics and description https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...ng-wide-5.html the holes are already in the tub, should be a cork like object plugging the extra hole. the cross member needs to be drilled, but the correct hole placements are 'ghosted' on the exterior and already drilled inside. this way the A-arms are shifted out and the strut should consequently have a slightly lower angle. My jaw is on the floor. Amazing. I read every word and cannot wait for the next update If you mover the longitudinals to the outer setting you will need to rotate the top hats 180 degrees as well. If you leave the upper hats in the narrow body setting you will have excessive negative camber. You will also need a front sway for a widebody car or 964 turbo. Other option is making spacers for the drop links I am planning to go with the MCS suspension set up, 3 ways adjustable (the ones with the short struts): Wyatt said he will provide them together with their monoball top mounts. I must inform him about this specific aspect. The front swaybar of the RS cannot be used? In germany I already found the BBS E29, which should have same shape as the E28 with magnesium center, but they should have it in aluminum alloy, and from what I could track down so far, they were (the E28) originally installed on the RSR and GT2 EVO versions, but the ones I found are from the 996 cup, maybe I will have to change the outer and inner barrels to adjust the channel and offset. I saw that Juha had 265 front and 305 rear...W O W, impressive! If I will be able to get to the final target of installing a 420+ engine, grip will be really welcome. Now I am literally in overflow, I would like to find sometime for writing about the whole story, in english. Middle September I am going again to drive to Germany and should be back with the 4 bbs wheels to be restored and painted (probably) bbs bronze, get the entire wiring harness, the missing underbody parts, fuel lines and other smaller parts, then the 997 gt3 crankshaft and oil pump, the camshaft housings and the 959 intermediate shaft with its sprockets. Some parts are for the step 2 engine that I don't know if it will ever see the sunlight, but in any case, if things don't change, will be probably created starting from a 964 '92 engine, due to better cost effectiveness. But this only after the car will be already running with its original engine and gearbox. People tell me this project speaks by itself, maybe they see it from a commercial point of view, and maybe they are right: I see it as a way to express myself (I don't know if this is the only way), and also sharing it, it isn't just a unique and beautiful opportunity to learn and get in contact with people sharing the same enthusiasm, it is also a real pleasure. The idea of leaving something behind me that maybe one day will be useful for someone, to me is priceless. That's why the instagram page, where I am trying to document every single step, from body, to wiring harness, to the other systems. (I am a very beginner of such things). I don't understand the hashtags at all, they are a mistery to me: maybe I share a wonderful pic and I think, wow, and then the hashtags don't work and... I tell myself: who cares. But it's a shame, all these boobs, bottoms and hips suggested, but no visibility for limincella hips and bottom?!? :icon501: |
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...734c4c8472.jpg
did I understand it right? Would it be a good idea to add a couple seam welding spots on these threaded profiles? I saw I'll also need 2 spacers in order to mount the steering rack in its original same position. I didn't understand the thing about the struts top mount... |
Originally Posted by cobalt
(Post 16870259)
The motorsports pump can be had cheap if you know what other cars they are used on. :D
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no spacers needed for the steering rack.
juha needed spacers for the brake booster. I use the porsche rs bars with 3 spacers(thick washers) on the wheel carrier to drop link, and 3 spacers on drop link to sway bar. cobalt is saying if you push the wheel carrier out 30mm using the rsr mounting position but leave the strut top mount in the same position you'll have 9 degrees of negative camber. in post #77 of the 'going wide' thread linked above bobt993 explains this. I rotated my camber plates 180 degrees to get the 4 degrees of negative front camber I wanted. |
I rotated my camber plates 180 degrees to get the 4 degrees of negative front camber I wanted. I noticed the top mount has a installing direction, if I recollect correctly with negative caster, but I am not sure. juha needed spacers for the brake booster |
the plates are just flipped to provide less camber, here's a 1000 words in two pictures
pic posted by oysteinw in some random thread about rennline camber plates this is how they are installed normally https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a1cd87d94f.jpg here's a pic of the same camber plates installed in my car with the suspension mounted in the outer position https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...36698284e9.jpg and here's some cats waiting for the fishing boats to come back https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1c6c509868.jpg |
But as Dr. F. Porsche used to say:
"To be truly aesthetic, truly timeless, any design must be functionally justified" Then I look at those beautiful hips and with only 300 hp it is not functionally justified enlarging them like the RSR, but maybe later with 400+ hp it will... Who knows, not for now. let's find out https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...59893ef281.jpg |
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