2020 NEXT GENERATION 992 SPY PICS & RELEASE
01-30-2018, 02:27 AM
#946
Instructor
NEW INFO ON ENGINES.
The upgraded engines are named EA9A2 and feature improved combustion and a 48V mild hybrid system.
Base Carrera 400hp, Carrera S 450hp, GT3 (sadly, now also a turbo) 550hp.
More details here: https://www.carscoops.com/2018/01/20...engine-lineup/
The upgraded engines are named EA9A2 and feature improved combustion and a 48V mild hybrid system.
Base Carrera 400hp, Carrera S 450hp, GT3 (sadly, now also a turbo) 550hp.
More details here: https://www.carscoops.com/2018/01/20...engine-lineup/
01-30-2018, 02:33 AM
#947
Porsche set a record for deliveries in 2017 ~ 246,000 vehicles mostly SUVs, the 911 is becoming a niche car and the NA 911s (GT3) are a niche within a niche (FI:NA 10:1).
Whether the regulator forces the issue or not is moot. Porsche has become a manufacturer of SUVs/luxo sedans - globally the ratio of sales between this group and the 911 is something like 5:1.
The simple truth, and one which Porsche fully understands is the market for high performance NA cars is small and this is within a declining market for sports cars.
They will make business decisions within the framework of the law and in the best interests of their shareholders.
Whether the regulator forces the issue or not is moot. Porsche has become a manufacturer of SUVs/luxo sedans - globally the ratio of sales between this group and the 911 is something like 5:1.
The simple truth, and one which Porsche fully understands is the market for high performance NA cars is small and this is within a declining market for sports cars.
They will make business decisions within the framework of the law and in the best interests of their shareholders.
Last edited by RRDnA; 01-30-2018 at 03:30 AM.
01-30-2018, 02:48 AM
#948
Porsche set a record for deliveries in 2017 ~ 246,000 vehicles mostly SUVs, the 911 is becoming a niche car and the NA 911s (GT3) are a niche within a niche (FI:NA 10:1).
Whether the regulator forces the issue or not is moot. Porsche has become a manufacturer of SUVs/luxo sedans - globally the ratio of sales between this group and the 911 is something like 5:1.
The simple truth, and one which Porsche fully understands is the market for high performance NA cars is small and this is within a declining market for sports cars.
Whether the regulator forces the issue or not is moot. Porsche has become a manufacturer of SUVs/luxo sedans - globally the ratio of sales between this group and the 911 is something like 5:1.
The simple truth, and one which Porsche fully understands is the market for high performance NA cars is small and this is within a declining market for sports cars.
How would an N/A Carrera fare if it was selling head to head with a turbo Carrera for the same price? Impossible to know. But sales in the U.S dropped immediately (shrinking market demand) the second they switched to turbo Carreras.
I’m focusing on U.S specifically, as it’s my only
market (so all that matters to me), but worldwide sales don’t really have much semblance to worldwide sales of yore. Being that China is carrying the weight, and China’s desires are significantly different than the U.S markets desires (they have no heritage to care about, know about, compare against the new offerings, etc.).
The reality is that car companies aren’t responding to market demand as much as market mandates. Namely with sports cars. And many these mandates have to do predominantly with China, and EU.
01-30-2018, 04:18 AM
#949
A car company has to produce vehicles that sell in sufficient commercial quantities in order to deliver acceptable returns to shareholders, they'll take growth where they find it and governments set the regulatory framework at the behest of various electorates. Thats just how it is and Porsche don't seem to be having a problem selling cars.
In fact if you look at the history of the company, they have had to flex to survive, thats what they are doing now.
About 20 years ago Porsche nearly went out of business trying to sell air cooled cars - the market didn't want them in sufficient commercial quantities. To survive Porsche developed the Boxster, Cayenne and more powerful water cooled NA DFI sports cars. Today, they are largely, a manufacturer of SUVs.
Regulations called for better safety measures, cars became heavier and ultimately with smallish capacity engines it became necessary to produce turbocharged engines to square all circles e.g. deliver performance, power/torque and reduced emissions. Of course, Porsche could have developed very high compression 2L NA engines, that meet emissions targets but they didn't. Why?.........anyhow, it is what it is.
I doubt Porsche will have any difficulty selling turbocharged GT3s and at the end of the day those that don't like the products will move on. It is worth noting there are plenty of people, even on Rennlist, that like a range of different driving experiences and may own several vehicles to get the range of experiences they desire.
In fact if you look at the history of the company, they have had to flex to survive, thats what they are doing now.
About 20 years ago Porsche nearly went out of business trying to sell air cooled cars - the market didn't want them in sufficient commercial quantities. To survive Porsche developed the Boxster, Cayenne and more powerful water cooled NA DFI sports cars. Today, they are largely, a manufacturer of SUVs.
Regulations called for better safety measures, cars became heavier and ultimately with smallish capacity engines it became necessary to produce turbocharged engines to square all circles e.g. deliver performance, power/torque and reduced emissions. Of course, Porsche could have developed very high compression 2L NA engines, that meet emissions targets but they didn't. Why?.........anyhow, it is what it is.
I doubt Porsche will have any difficulty selling turbocharged GT3s and at the end of the day those that don't like the products will move on. It is worth noting there are plenty of people, even on Rennlist, that like a range of different driving experiences and may own several vehicles to get the range of experiences they desire.
01-30-2018, 06:42 AM
#950
A car company has to produce vehicles that sell in sufficient commercial quantities in order to deliver acceptable returns to shareholders, they'll take growth where they find it and governments set the regulatory framework at the behest of various electorates. Thats just how it is and Porsche don't seem to be having a problem selling cars.
In fact if you look at the history of the company, they have had to flex to survive, thats what they are doing now.
About 20 years ago Porsche nearly went out of business trying to sell air cooled cars - the market didn't want them in sufficient commercial quantities. To survive Porsche developed the Boxster, Cayenne and more powerful water cooled NA DFI sports cars. Today, they are largely, a manufacturer of SUVs.
Regulations called for better safety measures, cars became heavier and ultimately with smallish capacity engines it became necessary to produce turbocharged engines to square all circles e.g. deliver performance, power/torque and reduced emissions. Of course, Porsche could have developed very high compression 2L NA engines, that meet emissions targets but they didn't. Why?.........anyhow, it is what it is.
I doubt Porsche will have any difficulty selling turbocharged GT3s and at the end of the day those that don't like the products will move on. It is worth noting there are plenty of people, even on Rennlist, that like a range of different driving experiences and may own several vehicles to get the range of experiences they desire.
In fact if you look at the history of the company, they have had to flex to survive, thats what they are doing now.
About 20 years ago Porsche nearly went out of business trying to sell air cooled cars - the market didn't want them in sufficient commercial quantities. To survive Porsche developed the Boxster, Cayenne and more powerful water cooled NA DFI sports cars. Today, they are largely, a manufacturer of SUVs.
Regulations called for better safety measures, cars became heavier and ultimately with smallish capacity engines it became necessary to produce turbocharged engines to square all circles e.g. deliver performance, power/torque and reduced emissions. Of course, Porsche could have developed very high compression 2L NA engines, that meet emissions targets but they didn't. Why?.........anyhow, it is what it is.
I doubt Porsche will have any difficulty selling turbocharged GT3s and at the end of the day those that don't like the products will move on. It is worth noting there are plenty of people, even on Rennlist, that like a range of different driving experiences and may own several vehicles to get the range of experiences they desire.
No data whatsoever supports or signifies the market demanded turbos (N/A cars rising in value immediately after .2’s launched is yet another factor completely opposite to that notion), nor supports Porsche going turbo because of market demand. In fact, a Porsche exec specifically said that it was done solely due to regulations. Also, again, data (sales) supports the market has been more receptive to N/A cars, outside of China, and most specifically in N/A. So if they had made the shift due to demand, they got it wrong, but we know that’s not why they did it.
You stated yourself that Porsche had to do what they had to do, and did the best with what they had to do, using the 2.0 N/A example. That’s what we’re saying as well. Market demand isn’t what’s shifting the 911 at all, market regulations are. Are there benefits to turbos? Of course! That’s why they *had* to do it. But the result in our market worked against market demand.
That’s what’s the frustration is about. The 911 will always get faster, more refined and more efficient. But it’s clearly destined to step slowly more and more away from the elements that have made it such a success. Porsche has no choice. If they did, best believe they wouldn’t lop another 3.8 turbo out back, next gen.
Does ANYONE here predict the 992 will outsell the 991.1 in the U.S market? Very possible, but it’ll be a stretch.
01-30-2018, 08:52 AM
#951
Myself and many other 991.1 owners skipped the 991.2. While others obviously don’t agree, many of us saw the 991.2 as Porsche’s way to test the Carrera market earlier than necessary with the FI platform in order to gain valuable feedback and also get the whole FI vs NA debate out of the way.
I’m looking forward to the 992 and so are many other 991.1 owners. Our cars are getting older and by the time the 992 roles out, it will be time for an upgrade. I predict the 992 will sell just fine.
As for the FI GT3, after seeing what the GT2 is capable of, I’m not overly concerned.
01-30-2018, 09:13 AM
#952
I believe it will. I can already hear the car reviewers commending Porsche on nearly eliminating all signs of turbo lag and improving the exhaust note over the 991.2.
Myself and many other 991.1 owners skipped the 991.2. While others obviously don’t agree, many of us saw the 991.2 as Porsche’s way to test the Carrera market earlier than necessary with the FI platform in order to gain valuable feedback and also get the whole FI vs NA debate out of the way.
I’m looking forward to the 992 and so are many other 991.1 owners. Our cars are getting older and by the time the 992 roles out, it will be time for an upgrade. I predict the 992 will sell just fine.
As for the FI GT3, after seeing what the GT2 is capable of, I’m not overly concerned.
(reviewer voice):
”Wow! Porsche managed to defy all odds and make this turbo feel at once more raw and engaging than the car it replaces, while more comfortable. Porsche went through a lot of effort making sure the exhaust note satisfies those enthusiasts still clinging onto their atmospheric engines while skipping the first 3.0 turbo iteration. We predict they won’t be holding out anymore, after driving a 992.”
Or....
”While this car continues and improves upon Porsche’s otherworldly balance of blistering performance, comfort and quality, we feel that Porsche made this thing SO good, it’s more akin to a perfect robot recreation of a 911, than an actual 911.”
As for the GT3, there I have to disagree, personally. A 3.8 turbo will be a monster, absolutely (yawn). The TS already does 0-60 in 2.4, the GT2 breaks records, blah blah. But the GT3 was supposed to be the ONE car for the “us’s,” and by that I mean “me’s.” The one where 0-60 and all that is the last of its hallmarks. Where pure soulful, raucous emotivity reign supreme. A true engineering art piece where they let the team design a 4.0 that revs to 9K and sounds like a mechanical opera.... because they’re Porsche and that’s what they do: Have fun, and go against the grain (for them, a big part of going against the grain is stubbornly perfecting a heritage many others gave up on long ago). The 911 Turbo/Turbo S with the 3.8 turbo feels about as soulful as a Cayenne, if you ask me (or Motor Trend, etc. etc.). The GT2 I’m sure is a riot, but it sounds like a slightly louder version of the extremely mundane Turbo/Turbo S engine/exhaust. Increasing redundancy, as well.
They’re not gonna change anything on account of complaints, it’s obviously a “have to” move on several levels, but I’ve accepted Carreras are FI, eventually electric, whatever. Taking the GT3? Argh.
01-30-2018, 09:44 AM
#953
Rennlist Member
I believe it will. I can already hear the car reviewers commending Porsche on nearly eliminating all signs of turbo lag and improving the exhaust note over the 991.2.
Myself and many other 991.1 owners skipped the 991.2. While others obviously don’t agree, many of us saw the 991.2 as Porsche’s way to test the Carrera market earlier than necessary with the FI platform in order to gain valuable feedback and also get the whole FI vs NA debate out of the way.
I’m looking forward to the 992 and so are many other 991.1 owners. Our cars are getting older and by the time the 992 roles out, it will be time for an upgrade. I predict the 992 will sell just fine.
As for the FI GT3, after seeing what the GT2 is capable of, I’m not overly concerned.
01-30-2018, 11:09 AM
#954
I believe it will. I can already hear the car reviewers commending Porsche on nearly eliminating all signs of turbo lag and improving the exhaust note over the 991.2.
Myself and many other 991.1 owners skipped the 991.2. While others obviously don’t agree, many of us saw the 991.2 as Porsche’s way to test the Carrera market earlier than necessary with the FI platform in order to gain valuable feedback and also get the whole FI vs NA debate out of the way.
I’m looking forward to the 992 and so are many other 991.1 owners. Our cars are getting older and by the time the 992 roles out, it will be time for an upgrade. I predict the 992 will sell just fine.
As for the FI GT3, after seeing what the GT2 is capable of, I’m not overly concerned.
01-30-2018, 11:20 AM
#955
As for the GT3, there I have to disagree, personally. A 3.8 turbo will be a monster, absolutely (yawn). The TS already does 0-60 in 2.4, the GT2 breaks records, blah blah. But the GT3 was supposed to be the ONE car for the “us’s,” and by that I mean “me’s.” The one where 0-60 and all that is the last of its hallmarks. Where pure soulful, raucous emotivity reign supreme. A true engineering art piece where they let the team design a 4.0 that revs to 9K and sounds like a mechanical opera.... because they’re Porsche and that’s what they do: Have fun, and go against the grain (for them, a big part of going against the grain is stubbornly perfecting a heritage many others gave up on long ago). The 911 Turbo/Turbo S with the 3.8 turbo feels about as soulful as a Cayenne, if you ask me (or Motor Trend, etc. etc.). The GT2 I’m sure is a riot, but it sounds like a slightly louder version of the extremely mundane Turbo/Turbo S engine/exhaust. Increasing redundancy, as well.
They’re not gonna change anything on account of complaints, it’s obviously a “have to” move on several levels, but I’ve accepted Carreras are FI, eventually electric, whatever. Taking the GT3? Argh.
), this is not the primary market Porsche is providing this model to. They have stiff competition that is getting faster and there is only so much you can squeeze out of a NA flat 6 reliably. There is no doubt that the 991 NA GT3's will become future classics, but Porsche has no choice but to move to FI if they want to keep the GT3 competitive and reliable. Not to mention, it will help their Carrera line. Guys that don't buy Carrera's because they want to hold out for a used GT3 may just say "screw it" and go with a Carrera GTS or similar since they are "all FI now"... IMO the Carrera GTS is the sweet spot 911 now and if the 992 can improve sound and turbo lag just a bit, I'll be a buyer for sure.My hope is that Porsche will still cater to this small segment of the market with speciality models like the 911R (hopefully without the insane allocation issues and dealer markup) but FI is hear to stay and I don't think we will be seeing much in terms of NA models moving forward. Which is sad but it is what it is.
01-30-2018, 11:25 AM
#956
Agree also. Keeping my 991.1 GTS as the .2 did not really interest me much. I do think Porsche will make inroads in respect to the sound and the lag of the .2. Not that it is "bad", but it could be improved upon for sure. Looking forward to the 992 to see what Porsche has up its sleeve. If not much, then who knows,....always said my .1 could be my last Porsche, I hope not....
I agree the 991.2 is not bad at all. I have driven a few and like them quite a bit. There just weren't enough checks in the Pro's list to justify me making the switch this late in the life cycle of the 991 generation. If you don't have a 911 or are looking to upgrade from an older generation, I would say get a 991.2 all day. But if you are a 991.1 owner, there is really no reason to make the switch with the 992 right around the corner.
01-30-2018, 11:43 AM
#957
These are all great arguments but one thing that may hurt 992 sales especially among current 991 owners including myself will be the interior. The Panameraization of the 991 interior was a radical change but ultimately proved to work out due to it being so functional.
This next iteration I fear might be one step too far. The haptic center console , those horrible center vents, glass cockpit and a cup holder that screams Ford Mustang I fear is pushing the car too far from it's usual tastefully advanced yet restrained philosophy.
As many are life long lovers / owners of many generations of 911 the fact that we are pessimistic towards each new model is a correct and natural behavior. Usually our fears are put to rest at the realization that Porsche in all their prowess pulled it off yet again and managed to keep us happy. Unfortunately though ... Lately it seems we have seen them along with many other enthusiasts brands falter at the hands of poor decision making and ever stringent regulations.
This next iteration I fear might be one step too far. The haptic center console , those horrible center vents, glass cockpit and a cup holder that screams Ford Mustang I fear is pushing the car too far from it's usual tastefully advanced yet restrained philosophy.
As many are life long lovers / owners of many generations of 911 the fact that we are pessimistic towards each new model is a correct and natural behavior. Usually our fears are put to rest at the realization that Porsche in all their prowess pulled it off yet again and managed to keep us happy. Unfortunately though ... Lately it seems we have seen them along with many other enthusiasts brands falter at the hands of poor decision making and ever stringent regulations.
01-30-2018, 11:47 AM
#958
Race Director
Thread Starter
This thread is about the 992. For better or worse, there are a lot of people that have interest in what is coming out.
We know it's not going to be naturally aspirated. It is what it is. Better to just focus on the subject at hand.
Would be nice to not see this thread go down the drain over the same old NA vs Turbo debates. There is a thread in the GT3 forum debating the future model going turbo.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...rbo-410kw.html
We know it's not going to be naturally aspirated. It is what it is. Better to just focus on the subject at hand.
Would be nice to not see this thread go down the drain over the same old NA vs Turbo debates. There is a thread in the GT3 forum debating the future model going turbo.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...rbo-410kw.html
01-30-2018, 12:26 PM
#959
Instructor
This thread is about the 992. For better or worse, there are a lot of people that have interest in what is coming out.
We know it's not going to be naturally aspirated. It is what it is. Better to just focus on the subject at hand.
Would be nice to not see this thread go down the drain over the same old NA vs Turbo debates. There is a thread in the GT3 forum debating the future model going turbo.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...rbo-410kw.html
We know it's not going to be naturally aspirated. It is what it is. Better to just focus on the subject at hand.
Would be nice to not see this thread go down the drain over the same old NA vs Turbo debates. There is a thread in the GT3 forum debating the future model going turbo.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...rbo-410kw.html
Here's the latest info on the engines. I posted that earlier, but it got buried under the "turbo vs NA" discourse.
NEW INFO ON ENGINES.
The upgraded engines are named EA9A2 and feature improved combustion and a 48V mild hybrid system.
Base Carrera 400hp, Carrera S 450hp, GT3 (now also a turbo) 550hp.
More details here: https://www.carscoops.com/2018/01/20...engine-lineup/
01-30-2018, 12:40 PM
#960
Agreed.
Here's the latest info on the engines. I posted that earlier, but it got buried under the "turbo vs NA" discourse.
NEW INFO ON ENGINES.
The upgraded engines are named EA9A2 and feature improved combustion and a 48V mild hybrid system.
Base Carrera 400hp, Carrera S 450hp, GT3 (now also a turbo) 550hp.
More details here: https://www.carscoops.com/2018/01/20...engine-lineup/
Here's the latest info on the engines. I posted that earlier, but it got buried under the "turbo vs NA" discourse.
NEW INFO ON ENGINES.
The upgraded engines are named EA9A2 and feature improved combustion and a 48V mild hybrid system.
Base Carrera 400hp, Carrera S 450hp, GT3 (now also a turbo) 550hp.
More details here: https://www.carscoops.com/2018/01/20...engine-lineup/
" Automobile reports the car will use an upgraded six-cylinder engine which is codenamed the EA9A2. The engine family will reportedly benefit from improved combustion techniques as well as new technologies. The model is also expected to adopt a 48V mild hybrid system which increases the output by 20 hp (14 kW) and 52 lb-ft (70 Nm) of torque. "
This bit is confusing.... Does this mean all the 911's including the base Carrera engine will end up with this mild hybrid nonsense?