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I really do think some of it has to do with how the throttle mapping is between a M3 and 992. BMW M car mapping, especially in any kind of sport mode, is super twitchy. A 10% push of the gas gets you to what feels like 50% of the max throttle. This makes for a car that feels very fast and aggressive. But I found somewhat difficult to drive smoothly. When I drove the 992, the mapping was much more linear. 10% push gets you 10% throttle. This is desirable as it allows better and more finely tuned control of the car. But for somebody who is used to a BMW, the immediate impression is that a 992 feels slow. The same amount of pedal movement makes a M car jump ahead, and is still in the lazy zone for a 992.
Just a first impression difference. Clearly as you spend more time with either car, you’d adapt.
Originally Posted by Big Swole
Folks... Folks...
I personally think the OP was "Simply" gauging the straight line acceleration of them...Nothing more in my opinion. I think the most accurate excuse someone gave was probably throttle mapping.
But for someone like me (maybe him as well), it can take quite a bit to impress for Straight line speed.
Like my vid above..I had a diesel truck that made 1050 WHP / 1700 WTQ and ran a 10.70 @ 130, which is slightly quicker than my tuned Turbo S!!! I'm now used to the power in my TTS and it feels slower to me (as they all do after getting used to it).
So once you're used to a certain amount of power, it takes a good bit extra to feel "impressed". That's All I think he meant. I didn't hear him compare ALL the other stuff everyone keeps defending the 992 for. I'm SURE it's all of those things..It's a Porsche!! Of course it is... He just wasn't comparing that part yet.
Just my .02
So, OP....Give it another shot and if it still isn't what you want "power wise" and that's what makes your boat float, the GO DRIVE A TURBO S or something even quicker (not too many out there).
Both of you guys are spot on. I think the throttle response mapping is exactly what I am referring too. And yes, I was judging by solely straight line speed, I love everything else about the 992.
I'l go drive a Turbo as suggested and see if that does it for me. Maybe an ECU tune would get me where I wanted to be on the 992...?
Oh don't get me wrong..I LOVE road course racing / driving... I just don't have the coin to do it often like some do. That would be my preferred past time, but drag racing is something I've done since my teenage years and it's fairly cheap by comparison. BTW, I did lots of track days on Two Wheels for a lot of my life. Road Atlanta, Barber, Jennings GP, & Little Tally GP. So I'm no stranger to that rush it gives you...Just WAY More dangerous on Two Wheels.
I love the feel of a hard pull in a straight line. It never gets old to me.
Yes, the 992 with a tune would be simply awesome and right there with my TTS, but I'd rather have a tuned / modded 991 Turbo S though. 700-800 WHP would be about perfect for my taste (until I got used to it..lol )
Two wheels ain't for me. Parents would never let me ride a motorcycle because they thought they were dangerous, but had me racing karts at 12 and 911s at 16 . . . Go figure. I did buy myself a Ninja 600R when I was 20. I jumped on and rode it home having never been on a motorcycle in my life. I quickly decided it was best for me to stick to 4 wheels and my need for speed didn't match my riding skills on two wheels.
Originally Posted by pitt911
wow tough crowd beating on the guy
Let me clear up some issues as I love both brands and own/owned a bunch of them
1. I owned 2015 M3 non comp, 2018 M3 Comp , and currently own 2018 M3CS... The car has evolved over the years and the CS is a great car ... Actually I agree with OP that M3CS feels faster than 992 S.. I don't own the 992 , but on two test drives that is the feeling I got. The M3CS has different mapping than regular M3 and is lighter as it has CF hood, roof, and trunk as compared to regular M3 which has only CF roof and trunk.. and the handling is better in CS as it has staggered wheels
2. F90 Comp is in a different league as far as speed so lets leave it alone
3. as far as depreciation, all brands depreciate , but some models worse than others ... so IMO depreciation has no bearing on evaluating car performance .. have you seen the depreciation on Panamera turbo S
but overall 911 including 992 is a completely different car than M3 , but it does not make m3 trash
Op , if you need any advice on GT cars , you can pm questions, but in one word : Awesome
Lol, 20 pound weight loss, little more torque, same suspension as FCP with a little remapping on adaptive dampers . . . maybe a little better than the REALLY bad F80 Competition Package, but really just same with same chassis that is hectic/squirrelly and a bit frantic even before limits are reached. The horrible chassis was kind of fun at first on the track and kept for busy hands, but grew old fast.
RE: Test Drives
Are you guy test driving with sales man along for the ride? Added weight and are you really flogging the in the upper revs on a test drive which is where the fun really is with a 911.
I Went from a F80 M3 (and an E46 M3 before that), to a 992 C2S. I drove the M2, M3, and M4 at the track as well as the 991.2 GTS and 992 C2S, and I can tell you the Porsche is in a completely different league to the BMW’s. The 911 is just hands down a much faster car, and exceeds the M cars in every metric, be it steering feel, traction, lateral stability, handling, acceleration, etc.
I owned the F80 M3 for 4 years, and while it is a fun, exhilarating car to drive, it could never compare to the near telepathic connection I have with my 992 C2S. The level of confidence that you get from pushing this car is simply incomparable to anything else, but you really have to try one out on a track to uncover what the car, and yourself are truly capable of.
If you judge a car’s ability purely from its straight line acceleration, then a 992 may disappoint, but not because it’s not fast, rather simply because it’s acceleration is so smooth, effortless, and relatively quiet, it doesn’t FEEL like it’s fast. Punching the throttle on an M3 in sport plus mode with DSC turned off results in a raucous bark with every gear shift punching you in the kidneys, while simultaneously chirping the tires and twitching the hips. The 992 will give you a pleasant growl and a smooth, rapidly increasing push in the back that’s more akin to a lightly loaded jet taking off. There’s no squealing of tires, or twitching of the chassis simply because a 911 just locks down on the rear tires and gets the job done without any drama.
If you want to LOOK like your driving fast, buy a BMW. If you want to actually GO fast, buy a Porsche.
Car and Driver says the M3CS is the best M3 of the F8x range. It feels fast and here are CandD’s test results:
Car and Driver recently posted test results of the 992 C2S in their comparison against the AMG GT.
The 992 C2S IS fast although it’s composure defies the numbers:
0-60: C2S @ 2.9 is faster than the 3.7 achieved by the M3CS
0-100: C2S @ 7.2 is faster than the 8.4 posted by the M3CS
1/4 Mile: C2S @ 11.2@125 is faster than M3CS @ 11.9.
Feel is subjective yet the spikey nature and noise of the M3CS create a certain drama that contribute to fast feel.
C2S test results below in right column:
Top speed is also faster with the C2S.
The M3CS might have faster depreciation from MSRP/sticker as significant discounts were common at purchase almost from the start.
The M3CS isn’t an acceptable benchmark for anything. AMG has taken over the segment from BMW rental M cars.
Everyone that was talented at BMW’s M Division now works at Hyundai’s N division. Where did you think that N came from?
No joke. Look it up.
If it seems like I am hard on BMW, I would like to note that I am a former Bimmer owner, enthusiast and BMW car club member. I used to love the company, but they have totally lost their way. It’s not just me. Look at the executive shake up, total dilution of the M brand, and their ongoing struggles across multiple segments.
Last night, I watched a V10 BMW M5 speeding through San Francisco, at full wail, and waxed nostalgic on what the company used to be.
I don't know. The C2S feels like it's 0-60 2.9s. It doesn't feel much slower than what I recall from my Turbo. Not quite as fast, sure, but I don't care what kind of throttle mapping shenanigans you do: 0-60 in 2.9 seconds is FAST.
Another thing - the Porsche sport modes on PDK feel more sophisticated and telepathic than BMW's solutions. The power is optimized in a useful way without needlessly spiky, crude delivery.
It is what it is. I like the choices Porsche made.
I am not defending BMW blindly as I think as a company they slipped few years ago, but currently are picking up
but to say that M3CS is trash , that what prompted me to write my post
Also the statement that AMG is better than M is debatable. I owned multiple AMG cars and I really liked them , but I will not call them better than M cars … They are different and some might like one more than the other including myself
I had an F10 M5 which I did not like and replaced it with E63 S 212 GEN which I loved
but when I was looking for replacement for E63S , I decided on F90 C which has been fantastic so far
all these car are very good and a lot depends on personal taste so the way I look at it, is we are lucky that we have all these options
I really do think some of it has to do with how the throttle mapping is between a M3 and 992. BMW M car mapping, especially in any kind of sport mode, is super twitchy. A 10% push of the gas gets you to what feels like 50% of the max throttle. This makes for a car that feels very fast and aggressive. But I found somewhat difficult to drive smoothly. When I drove the 992, the mapping was much more linear. 10% push gets you 10% throttle. This is desirable as it allows better and more finely tuned control of the car. But for somebody who is used to a BMW, the immediate impression is that a 992 feels slow. The same amount of pedal movement makes a M car jump ahead, and is still in the lazy zone for a 992.
Just a first impression difference. Clearly as you spend more time with either car, you’d adapt.
I have a 991.2 GTS and a M3 Comp and agree with this 100%. The torque bump/kick when shifting gears in the M3 is exhilarating and with all of the theater and fake sound and traction issues, it challenges the senses and makes you feel like you are going fast but the GTS is so much faster by every objective metric, it’s just so clinical about it, it’s less noticeable.
That’s the thing so many people miss regarding cars like these. Theater and drama and sound and feel are very different qualities than acceleration. They don’t need to go hand and hand. And a car doesn’t have to be the fastest around the ‘ring to be a real joy. It just takes a good mix of all of the above.
I don't know. The C2S feels like it's 0-60 2.9s. It doesn't feel much slower than what I recall from my Turbo. Not quite as fast, sure, but I don't care what kind of throttle mapping shenanigans you do: 0-60 in 2.9 seconds is FAST.
Another thing - the Porsche sport modes on PDK feel more sophisticated and telepathic than BMW's solutions. The power is optimized in a useful way without needlessly spiky, crude delivery.
It is what it is. I like the choices Porsche made.
I thought I saw that the M4CS and/or M3CS tested at 3.9 to 60mph and didn't hit the factory 3.7 which would not surprise me. The Competition Package had a difficult time putting the power down so the slight bump in torque with the CS really is a non issue to 60 mph. Might hit 3.7 with Rs.
I agree with your assessment. I had both a 991.1 Turbo and a 991.2 Turbo. I spent a weekend with a C2S and ran about 10 laps at NCM. C2S felt in 991 Turbo league and the C2S handles and drives at speed amazingly well.
The one thing the pdk and PSM seems to do exceedingly well is perfect traction control on each shift during hard acceleration. Turn nannies off if you need wheel spinning, tailing wagging acceleration to think you are going fast . . ., but actually slower with just more drama about it.
Originally Posted by pitt911
I am not defending BMW blindly as I think as a company they slipped few years ago, but currently are picking up
but to say that M3CS is trash , that what prompted me to write my post
Also the statement that AMG is better than M is debatable. I owned multiple AMG cars and I really liked them , but I will not call them better than M cars … They are different and some might like one more than the other including myself
I had an F10 M5 which I did not like and replaced it with E63 S 212 GEN which I loved
but when I was looking for replacement for E63S , I decided on F90 C which has been fantastic so far
all these car are very good and a lot depends on personal taste so the way I look at it, is we are lucky that we have all these options
Picking up? Where do you see that?
The E92 and M3s prior to that were decent. I have driven dozens on the track from 90s through 2012. The F8X platform was a disaster. Saying the CS is better than the F80 base and FCP is really not saying anything as the bar was so low. Perhaps the CS address damping issues which was a biggie, but that is apparently about all. The F80 is a cheap sedan with entry to mid level interior that is full of squeaks, rattles with bolt on performance parts. Apparently, one man's trash can truly be another man's treasure.
I think BMW designs are tired and dated. The new designs are not good looking at all. In the person, the 8 is awful and some of the spy shots of the new M3 were pretty dang bad, especially the grill design. I saw what I think was a new 3 series just yesterday and it looked really bad.
The Quadrofoglio is a better driver's car than the F80 M3 and has a better engine, better steering and I even like the brake feel better,
I like Mercedes. Mercedes has kept their designs fresh and attractive. The AMG GT 63 is a beast and looks great! Without a doubt, Mercedes are better than BMWs at every level, but you also pay for their quality.
Great feedback. You guys are killing me, just because I wasn't wow'd by the Carrera S you that think I am a "troll", or mistakenly didn't drive a 992, too funny. I am going to take vic55's advice and go for a second test drive, and also drive a 991.2 Turbo and a GT3 (if I can find a dealer with one). Obviously, the M3 CS is not the best car, but it's not trash, it's still a fun car for the price point. Maybe I'll just get a modded diesel like Big Swole suggested LOL.
I haven't driven the CS but I owned a tuned M4. I drove a C2S back to back from my car (was considering a C2S) and while the C2S didn't have as much of the sudden torque as the M4 (which is why the C2S probably didn't give you the feeling you thought it would), it also didn't fall flat on it's face like the M4 did in comparison (at 6k). My $0.02. The Porsche had more usable power in the entire range, the M4 was basically a drift car down low (felt similar to my old Cobra in that respect) -- you had to be very cautious. Just my personal experience. I do like the M4 though. I think I would prefer a CPO Turbo over a new C2S though as a step up from an M4. Then again, I'd also prefer an E92 M3 over a new M4, albeit maybe with a blower.
I still find that 9/10 times I get in my Wrangler over any other vehicle though. Just easier.
I'd actually suggest trying to get a longer test drive on one, assuming they can -- or even a used 991.2 if willing. You probably didn't have enough varied seat time. Or go do the Porsche experience center for a day first.
02-02-2020, 05:52 PM
