Argon_

Pete, you need a gutted E30.

They can still be found in good condition for $5-8k if you poke around.

limegreen

Pete you bring up a great point. I nearly bought a 4C while I was shopping for a 718 or 991. I arranged road tests back to back on the same day between the 718 and the 4C and it was mind blowing how heavy and lethargic the 4C made the 718 feel in that direct comparo. The same thing happened to me years ago when I drove my daily 996 to test drive an Elise. Sadly, in both cases the complete lack of practicality mixed with some irritating quirks (and lack of manual trans in the 4C) and fear of poor reliability prevented me in both cases from buying one. Though I have never forgotten those driving experiences and at times I feel willing to trade all those drawbacks just for that incredible driving experience.

I'd recommend anyone who believes weight is not an issue in these modern Porsche's go take a drive in either a 4C or an Elise, Exige, Evora and report back.....

stout

Genau. Love E30s...on my "someday" short list, alongside a Stepnose.

Hard part would be figuring out which version, and how I would mod it. Probably 1989-1991 325is w/E36 M3 power. But 318is with 2.5-liter E30 M3 engine isn't far behind. Would be very curious to try a gutted E30. Hadn't thought about that.

For me, the revelation was the 500 Abarth after a Mk5 GTI & Mk6 GTI in succession. The Fiat required number of compromises, but less than I would have expected and I no longer had ANY interest in the GTI when I saw one go by. The GTI was a superior car, yet not as desirable to me. The Abarth also proved far more reliable than either of the GTIs. Effectively bulletproof (minor door rattle and a minor shifter issue over two years/18,000 miles, and trouble free the last three years since we sold it to a friend), where cylinder head had to come off the Mk6 at 12,000 miles due to oil leaks and the Mk5 had $4k+ of parts replacement under warranty until they discovered a main harness shorting against the chassis.

I drove a 4C on track back to back with a 981 2.7 and had the same reaction you did: The superb 981 felt quite big suddenly, and a bit lethargic. Also LOVED the size of the 4C out in the world/on the street as well as its immediately special looks and sound, but I am with you: The transmission is a deal-killer. First thing I think of whenever I see one now. Sigh...

haen

The impact of weight depends on your use case. It's easy to mask weight in normal driving conditions. Harder to do so on the track or windy backroads. Be realistic with how you intend to use your car and that will define your priorities.

catdog2

The steering in 4C keeps you busy enough, not sure a manual would be better. Also the transmission in 4C is very good and responsive to throttle input during shifts to modulate type of up- and down-shift. It's perfect as is, manual would make it worse not better....

limegreen

There are many of us who disagree and the disappointing sales along with the recent cancellation of the car might suggest the same. If that car came with a sublime gated 6 speed manual I think the take rate would have been significantly higher. I also think if that car was given a practical trunk / storage area with enough room for two small suitcases (for a weekend getaway) it would have also helped to increase sales even further.

Alfa in my opinion, misread the market by assuming that buyers would want an affordable mini exotic Ferrari wannabe with ultimate performance when in reality what we were drawn to most was the simplicity of the package along with the promise of a pure driving experience over outright performance. The paddle shift gearbox ruined that experience for many of us and thus we moved on to purchase something else.




The good news is that there may be some glimmer of hope on the horizon:

Gordon Murray, the father of arguably the greatest sports car ever built clearly has his head on straight when it comes to understanding exactly what enthusiasts want.

" A car of moderate power has been a bit of an obsession with Murray for some years. Last year he told us of the frustration at trying to drive today’s supercars at full pelt.

“I just want to get back to real driving. Today’s cars are losing the plot on involvement.” He wants fewer driver aids. “The driver will be in the feedback loop.” The manual gearbox is another side of that same story, and it’s something that Alpine doesn’t offer."


There has been a lot of buzz about him recently and though I've been hearing these rumors on and off for 2 decades now it seems this might become a possibility for the US market.

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/bri...ll-have-220bhp

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/a26698796/gordon-murray-design-t43-geneva-interview/?src=socialflowFBRAT&fbclid=IwAR1GBqU11MypnNmKBUVLFe2ct3yJsbqAAZ-1vf4zoNJkz_We_5a0gOdTpNM


" The headline figures: weight under 1873 pounds (950 kgs), 215 hp from a Ford-sourced turbocharged three-cylinder, a manual gearbox, and a base price of under £40,000. Sounds pretty mouthwatering, huh?

"I'll tell you what it is. It's a Lotus Elise, but usable every day," Murray said. "You can get in and out. It's got a roof. It's got air-conditioning that works, sound system, sat nav, airbags...

"It's a market segment that's not just underpopulated, it's virtually empty at the moment."

Really, the only other thing sort of like the T.43 is the new Alpine A110, but that starts at around £47,0o0 in the UK and weighs in at 2314 pounds, according to Murray. He's actually using one as his daily driver right now. "If it was 100 mm narrower, it would be the perfect car," he said.

So how does Murray plan on making his car so light? It's all down to his iStream design technology. For the T.43, Murray will employ iStream Superlight, a construction method that combines an aluminum tube frame with recycled carbon honeycomb chassis panels.

[img]https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/gordon-murray-iframe-product-advantages-1551867925.jpg?crop=1xw:1xh;center,top&resize=480:*
GORDON MURRAY DESIGNMurray developed iStream as a low-cost lightweight chassis design concept, first for a city car, and later for sports cars. Yamaha licensed it for its Sports Ride concept of 2015, and TVR is licensing a version of it for its new Griffith. Murray set up IGM to build the T.43 mainly as a way to highlight iStream technology, and he's hoping the car will help attract more licensees.

Murray's T.43 will be quite small. It'll be around 13 feet long and about 5.5 feet wide. And though it only has 215 hp, Murray points out that it's so light, it has the same power-to-weight ratio of an outgoing 911 Carrera S. "A 2.0-liter motor on that would make it a super car, you know, at that weight," Murray said.

And because it's so light, the T.43 won't need big tires. Murray's actually disappointed because he wants a 175-width tire with an 18-inch wheel for the front, but no one makes that yet.

Murray's obsessed with light-weight cars. He estimates he owns 35 cars that weigh in under 1763 lbs (800 kg), including an Austin-Healey Sprite, two Lotus Elans and Elites, a De Tomaso Vallelunga, and a Fiat-Abarth 750 Zagato among many others. He recently picked up a Lotus Europa and he's quickly become a fan, and he commutes to work in an open-piped Lotus Eleven. As you do.

While his successor to the F1 will only come to the US on a Show & Display exemption, Murray wants the T.43 to be sold everywhere. It also won't be a three-seater like the F1, and the new supercar he's working on. He's confident it'll have no problem meeting US Federal safety and emissions "

Thinc2

I recently sold my Fiat 124 Abarth after I got the 911. I was sorely tempted to keep it, but garage space etc... I also realized that with the 911 as a DD, the 124 really wasn't going to get a lot of use.

BUT, they are not cars trying to fill the same niche. The 911 is not trying be a Miata or a Abarth. MIata/Abarth is light weight (2400 lbs max), low power (200 HP tuned), go kart like fun. The (non GT) 911 feels (to me) like a car right on the luxury sports car/GT car fence. Both make really nice daily drivers, but with a very different approach.

My point is - if you want low weight - I don't think that's what the 911 is after anymore (moderate weight yes, but not low weight). If you want the "slow cars are more fun to drive fast" experience - I suggest a Miata or Abarth as an addition to anyone's garage. And they really are fun!

Argon_

The 325is has become collectible recently. They'll either be expensive or shot to ****. I'd go for a 325i, gut the thing completely and go thrash.

Engine mods can come later, in the meantime there are 185 width all season tires to roast.

Noah Fect

People in that market aren't looking for "perfect," they're looking for "interesting." An automatic in a car like that isn't very interesting.

Sometimes worse is better.

K-A

I agree, the 911 is the perfect sports car all arounder. Luxurious enough to feel like a luxury car when you want it to be, sporty and visceral enough to feel like a track intended car when you want it to be. I would like more focus on the latter, but that's mostly because my 911 isn't my DD. Still, I always appreciate how well it walks lines. I mean we can call it a "GT car," but I don't think that's accurate either. It's FAR sportier and more capable than any other GT car, and its inherent makeup is more exotic and quirky as well (rear engine). It's also smaller and has sportier proportions than your average long-hood front engine GT car. I guess "sports car in semi GT car guise" is more appropriate.

DAMN! Insane to hear that the 4C makes the usually go-karty 718 feel "lethargic." Mind blowing that anything can do that. Now I really gotta try it out.

Murray is a genius and spot on.

jimmuller

I considered a 4C when I was thinking about the purchase which ended up being the 718C. Light weight, nearly identical acceleration, noisier, more flamboyant. Several things argued against it. No storage to speak of, no dealer or service near enough to me, more noise. Did I mention more noise? I read a review where the guy described driving out for a weekend somewhere and at a stop halfway there his wife said she was getting out and taking the bus the rest of the way. End of consideration. The "fun factor" of light weight goes only so far before reality hits.

evilfij

evilfij

minthral

There are two types of owners:

1) Its a car
2) Its a toy

Seems like a reality disconnect between the two. Question is what do you REALLY want. Some people will day dream about cars like the 4C, but after actually sitting inside and driving it for any significant duration, reality sets in.

Getting in is a chore, mainly because you're afraid of scratching the huge threshold. Once you get going, lots of unpleasant road noise and a migraine inducing exhaust drone fills the cabin. The seats are uncomfortable, unsupportive, and have almost no adjustment, so you can't see the speedometer because the top of the steering wheel is in the way. When you adjust your head and eyes on the instrument cluster, its confusing. You hit a pothole and the the suspension crashes, jolting your back and the steering wheel tries to rip your hand off as you make mental note to keep a grip with both (not checking cellphone). As you try pass traffic, turbo lag is noticeable and power delivery is crude/boosty. The dry dual clutch transmission jerks around as if its going to fall out in at the stoplight and makes you wonder about overheating reports on forums. After you get the road to yourself, boredom sets in and you turn on the single din aftermarket unit which sounds like crap. As you speed through a curve, the car feels all over the place and going 100 MPH, but looking down its only 65. Not impressed and make a mental note that the miata has more body roll, but its actually lighter than a 4C...and that you remember taking a camry through the turn faster and easier. A stop at a store has creepy people eyeing you as you have a second go to get into the truck using the manual release (darn lever doesn't always work)..the extra groceries that don't fit go in passenger's seat. There's a sudden rainstorm on the way home and the car is skidding all over the road... slow white knuckle drive home - wouldn't want to damage the un-repairable carbon tub, assuming the lack of safety tech wont kill you so it matter.

Its not a car... its a toy. As much as people claim they want cars like 4C, no one buys them for good reason. People who buy a car like this treat it as 'an experience' and many will trade it in after 1-2 years when they get bored and want a 'new experience.'

For me, the 4C is just plain bad. It doesn't handle well despite the low weight and manual steering. Its not comfortable. It doesn't sound good or even all that fun. Questionable build quality, materials, and reliability. Sure is pretty and a nice design piece that many might lust over...too bad reality exists.

Of course people have different preferences... I'm in the 'its a car' group. For me its the whole experience and not just 'let me go have a fun drive.' I went through that phase and its out of my system...I'd get a cheap disposable track only car if I wanted that (rip interior out, install cage etc etc). Street cars are street cars and excessive scarifies for lower weight is stupid...best to add more power than throw the radio out.

The 991.2 (and 992) is heavier, but I'm confident they feel lighter than 991.1 or any previous gen due to so much more power and things like AWD, rear steering, dynamic chassis components. They're just better cars, but maybe what people really want is a slow sloppier raw toy with character...not me.

Thinc2

You make a strong case for a Miata/Fiat 124 Abarth