At what point does the trade off of more power/speed become inferior to added weight?
02-25-2019, 07:16 PM
#16
Lol, someone with a 991 complaining about weight.
Just curious, has any here driven some of these light-weight 911s of the past? I doubt many in here would make it more than a week trying to drive these things on the street before they would hate it and ditch for their modern cars. Uncomfy, you smell like oil after a drive, no AC, heavy clutch that will wear you out n traffic or at stop lights and super heavy steering when trying to navigate low speed parking lots. Add that to the handling characteristic, lack of turn in and the propensity for snap oversteer of the light weight era cars . . . and me thinks some are just looking to belly ache and complain for sake of belly aching and complaining.
The whole issue with weight is handling and my guess is the 991 and the 992 limits far exceed the skill set of most on here. I definitely don't understand complaining about weight before one has even sat behind the wheel and experienced the handling characteristics and feel of the car.
Just curious, has any here driven some of these light-weight 911s of the past? I doubt many in here would make it more than a week trying to drive these things on the street before they would hate it and ditch for their modern cars. Uncomfy, you smell like oil after a drive, no AC, heavy clutch that will wear you out n traffic or at stop lights and super heavy steering when trying to navigate low speed parking lots. Add that to the handling characteristic, lack of turn in and the propensity for snap oversteer of the light weight era cars . . . and me thinks some are just looking to belly ache and complain for sake of belly aching and complaining.
The whole issue with weight is handling and my guess is the 991 and the 992 limits far exceed the skill set of most on here. I definitely don't understand complaining about weight before one has even sat behind the wheel and experienced the handling characteristics and feel of the car.
Food for thought.. An Aventador with a visceral, screaming naturally aspirated 12 cylinder engine runs a sub 7 minute lap at the 'ring..
Curb weight: 4100 pounds.
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carson2 (10-03-2019)
02-25-2019, 07:46 PM
#17
To decrease weight, a car manufacturer has to either eliminate content or increase the use of lighter weight materials. Go too far in the first direction, and you'll end up with something like an Alfa 4C - a car that's fast and nimble, but one that very few people buy because it's a pretty poor daily driver. Head in the other direction, and you'll end up with something like the previously mentioned McLaren, whose cheapest model has a base price that's almost twice that of a 911 and is still a 3200 pound car. I think Porsche has done a great job of adding content to make their cars better performing, safer, more comfortable, and more efficient while using lighter materials to keep weight on the low side.
Both the 1986 and 1987 991s I owned back then meet the criteria mentioned in limegreen's post - lighter, less grip, lower power, etc. However, I contend that the driving experience of my 991.2 is far superior to both. Wanna live in the 80s? Then strap on those parachute pants and buy a vintage 911 for half the cost of a new one.
Both the 1986 and 1987 991s I owned back then meet the criteria mentioned in limegreen's post - lighter, less grip, lower power, etc. However, I contend that the driving experience of my 991.2 is far superior to both. Wanna live in the 80s? Then strap on those parachute pants and buy a vintage 911 for half the cost of a new one.
02-26-2019, 06:19 AM
#18
K-A, you’ve been worrying about too much weight since the delete of the glass roof on your Macan :-)
Cars are getting heavier and more power is coming with that. I hear you and do agree that the older, light weight cars have a charm about them. But weight seems to be the price of progress.
Hey, it’s America. Everything is supersized!
Cars are getting heavier and more power is coming with that. I hear you and do agree that the older, light weight cars have a charm about them. But weight seems to be the price of progress.
Hey, it’s America. Everything is supersized!
The real question is if when the price of progress fiscally cheapens, will automakers be able to reduce weight again, while still churning out the advancements they currently do. Or is it simply impossible to cram so much tech in these cars while keeping weight "low."
The 991.1 lost weight and improved performance. Win, win. Not so the 991.2 and 992. The turbocharging of the Carreras led to improved performance at the cost of increased weight. The weight increased in the 992 for various reasons, including the particulate filter (which is not in the North American cars). I'm a big believer that oftentimes, less is more. AP and the GT department definitely would agree with that, down to putting a sticker on the hood of the GT3-RS for the purpose of weight saving. Not so much in the 911 Carrera department, which seems to be going more and more toward a mass-produced, homogenized luxury sports sedan.
I think this is a really great question. Light weight has always defined the 911 from the early days of racing when it would beat much larger horsepower heavier cars. The other marque that really 'gets it' in the weight savings department is McLaren which seems to be able to keep its cars around 3000 lbs. Their cars manage to have high hp albeit turbocharged.
J
J
To complain about weight and ignore everything else is not logical. That's an emotional statement.
The reason to keep weight down is to improve acceleration, stopping distance, and fuel economy. ENGINEERING AND DESIGN of the whole package determine how a car handles, how fast it goes, how quick it stops etc etc.
If someone thinks that they should go find an older 'lighter weight car' and it will be better just because its weighs less is really missing out. You can't just ignore the whole equation and focus on the weight variable. That's completely illogical. Older cars drove like sheeeeet compared to new cars...they were also less comfortable and would be considered dangerous by today's safety standards.
I guess some people get the warm and fuzzies that they can put their car on a weight scale and see a lower number?
Instead this argument should be 'at what point is attempting to reduce weight a wasted effort when engineering a car?' Otherwise its like saying 'booo hooo this new motor is faster and more efficient, but it weights more per HP produced so its bad.'
The reason to keep weight down is to improve acceleration, stopping distance, and fuel economy. ENGINEERING AND DESIGN of the whole package determine how a car handles, how fast it goes, how quick it stops etc etc.
If someone thinks that they should go find an older 'lighter weight car' and it will be better just because its weighs less is really missing out. You can't just ignore the whole equation and focus on the weight variable. That's completely illogical. Older cars drove like sheeeeet compared to new cars...they were also less comfortable and would be considered dangerous by today's safety standards.
I guess some people get the warm and fuzzies that they can put their car on a weight scale and see a lower number?
Instead this argument should be 'at what point is attempting to reduce weight a wasted effort when engineering a car?' Otherwise its like saying 'booo hooo this new motor is faster and more efficient, but it weights more per HP produced so its bad.'
IMO, you can drive a 550 HP V8 Jag F Type out of a parking lot, and you KNOW it's a heavy car. Yeah, when you nail the gas, it moves like a missile, but nothing can disguise its weight. Little ways you connect with a car: Snapping the wheel around to get a feel of it, how "go kart-y" it feels even in mundane traffic, etc. are all subject to weight. A 200 hp car that weighs very little, can immediately feel fun and emotive.
Another example: When I had my Macan S with all the suspension enhancement options (but no PTV+ like my 911 has), and had a Mazda 3 on the side, the Macan would obliterate it in any performance test. But when driving normally, the Macan felt heavy, almost lethargic (this changed dramatically when you push it). The Mazda felt far lighter, instantly more engaging, to the point where it felt like it should be a better handling car (until, again, you push them both).
Another perspective is that if Porsche wasn't concerned about the weight then they wouldn't be continuously going through the effort and expense to add lightweight materials along with PTV and RAS etc. to each subsequent model to counteract the weight of the additional components. They are likely just as worried about it as many of us are.
A lightweight car is a nimble car that is able to do more with less. Less power , less grip , less fuel consumption and less reliant on trickery to make for a great driving experience. It's ironically the key to all the efficiency Porsche is struggling to find across their lineup but for some reason they trade it off time and time again for what I'd consider gimmicky add ons and luxury components that do little for the driving experience.
Just because a Panamera or Cayenne are able to seemingly repel the laws of physics with huge power numbers and massive steam roller tires doesn't mean that they should. Nor does it make the experience of driving the car feel anything close to what I'd consider nimble.
A lightweight car is a nimble car that is able to do more with less. Less power , less grip , less fuel consumption and less reliant on trickery to make for a great driving experience. It's ironically the key to all the efficiency Porsche is struggling to find across their lineup but for some reason they trade it off time and time again for what I'd consider gimmicky add ons and luxury components that do little for the driving experience.
Just because a Panamera or Cayenne are able to seemingly repel the laws of physics with huge power numbers and massive steam roller tires doesn't mean that they should. Nor does it make the experience of driving the car feel anything close to what I'd consider nimble.
And before someone wants to chime in with "bUt hOw cAn a 911 oWnEr sAy tHaT," this is my entire point. Even the 991 is dubbed as the "luxury 911," but the 991 chassis DECREASED weight from the 997 (even with the 991.2's extra weight and accompanying more power, even it is probably not all that much heavier than the 997 was), therefore IMO the 991 went about it the right, fundamental way. Engineering in more luxury, while decreasing weight for performance (rather than weight being a product of said luxury, then adding more heavy elements to now add performance back). And although a 991.1 feels rawer than the following 911's, no doubt including the 992, even it is too coddling IMO. But I do appreciate the balance, and surely would even more so if it was my DD.
02-26-2019, 06:39 AM
#19
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To decrease weight, a car manufacturer has to either eliminate content or increase the use of lighter weight materials. Go too far in the first direction, and you'll end up with something like an Alfa 4C - a car that's fast and nimble, but one that very few people buy because it's a pretty poor daily driver.
And I say that as a firm PDK adherent. If I were buying a 4C I'd want a stick.
Last edited by Noah Fect; 02-26-2019 at 07:16 PM.
02-26-2019, 07:00 AM
#20
To decrease weight, a car manufacturer has to either eliminate content or increase the use of lighter weight materials. Go too far in the first direction, and you'll end up with something like an Alfa 4C - a car that's fast and nimble, but one that very few people buy because it's a pretty poor daily driver./QUOTE]
IMO what killed the 4C was its transmission. A car like that makes no sense with an automatic, any more than a Miata does.
And I say that as a firm PDK adherent. If I were buying a 4C I'd want a stick.
IMO what killed the 4C was its transmission. A car like that makes no sense with an automatic, any more than a Miata does.
And I say that as a firm PDK adherent. If I were buying a 4C I'd want a stick.
02-26-2019, 08:54 AM
#21
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[QUOTE=Noah Fect;15665125]
Although I have never owned one, I spent a bunch of time driving various 4Cs, both street and track. The transmission has nothing to do with why that car doesn't sale . . . I am also a huge Exige and Elise fan and used to race both. The new Evora 400 does nothing for me and it seems a very large percentage of those are actually sold with the automatic trannie.
To decrease weight, a car manufacturer has to either eliminate content or increase the use of lighter weight materials. Go too far in the first direction, and you'll end up with something like an Alfa 4C - a car that's fast and nimble, but one that very few people buy because it's a pretty poor daily driver./QUOTE]
IMO what killed the 4C was its transmission. A car like that makes no sense with an automatic, any more than a Miata does.
And I say that as a firm PDK adherent. If I were buying a 4C I'd want a stick.
IMO what killed the 4C was its transmission. A car like that makes no sense with an automatic, any more than a Miata does.
And I say that as a firm PDK adherent. If I were buying a 4C I'd want a stick.
02-26-2019, 06:56 PM
#22
Burning Brakes
There's no question that weight is the enemy of performance. That's why every modern racing class has a minimum weight requirement. But the current tradeoff is not weight versus power. In fact, thanks to advances in engine technology, modern engines make enormous power in smaller and lighter packages than they ever did before.
Most of the corpulence of modern cars comes from:
Most of the corpulence of modern cars comes from:
- increased size, to accommodate ever fatter occupants
- greater market demand for comfort and convenience features
- larger wheels and tires along with their attendant stouter suspension bits and stiffer chassis requirements
- and, most of all, much stricter crash test standards that demand stronger structures, greater crush space, and ever-more airbags and other safety devices
02-26-2019, 09:51 PM
#23
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There's no question that weight is the enemy of performance. That's why every modern racing class has a minimum weight requirement. But the current tradeoff is not weight versus power. In fact, thanks to advances in engine technology, modern engines make enormous power in smaller and lighter packages than they ever did before.
Most of the corpulence of modern cars comes from:
Most of the corpulence of modern cars comes from:
- increased size, to accommodate ever fatter occupants
- greater market demand for comfort and convenience features
- larger wheels and tires along with their attendant stouter suspension bits and stiffer chassis requirements
- and, most of all, much stricter crash test standards that demand stronger structures, greater crush space, and ever-more airbags and other safety devices
02-26-2019, 11:17 PM
#24
Sure would be a fun time.
02-26-2019, 11:22 PM
#25
Here's a similar but different question: At what point is more power and speed useless for the vast majority of non-track street driving?
Something tells me I'd be happier driving a Carrera T than a GT3 T.
Something tells me I'd be happier driving a Carrera T than a GT3 T.
02-27-2019, 01:10 AM
#26
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To answer the OP's question, the answer is: "Not until you drive something lighter". It's all a matter of perception and the vast majority of 992 test drivers will never find themselves behind the wheel of a pure, lightweight sports car to fully appreciate what makes that driving experience so special.
Which started over two decades ago turning the 911 into a "Grand Turismo" GT and moving away from it being a pure sports car.
This isn't a bad thing, I have a garage full of 928's which is the original Porsche GT. But at the same time it's a bit sad to see what once was a pure sports morphed into the slot the 928 was originally designed for. If hindsight could be 20/20 the 928 would have stayed in production to fill that market segment and the 911 could have remained pure to it's soul.
Anytime I climb into something that weights close to 2,000lbs I remember what that rawness feels like. No amount of technology or horsepower can replace it.
This isn't a bad thing, I have a garage full of 928's which is the original Porsche GT. But at the same time it's a bit sad to see what once was a pure sports morphed into the slot the 928 was originally designed for. If hindsight could be 20/20 the 928 would have stayed in production to fill that market segment and the 911 could have remained pure to it's soul.
Anytime I climb into something that weights close to 2,000lbs I remember what that rawness feels like. No amount of technology or horsepower can replace it.
02-27-2019, 01:15 AM
#27
Which started over two decades ago turning the 911 into a "Grand Turismo" GT and moving away from it being a pure sports car.
This isn't a bad thing, I have a garage full of 928's which is the original Porsche GT. But at the same time it's a bit sad to see what once was a pure sports morphed into the slot the 928 was originally designed for. If hindsight could be 20/20 the 928 would have stayed in production to fill that market segment and the 911 could have remained pure to it's soul.
Anytime I climb into something that weights close to 2,000lbs I remember what that rawness feels like. No amount of technology or horsepower can replace it.
Anytime I climb into something that weights close to 2,000lbs I remember what that rawness feels like. No amount of technology or horsepower can replace it.
02-27-2019, 01:28 AM
#28
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You wanna get really crazy the 356 cult who see all 911's as luxurious barges
It's really splitting hairs, I love them all and really enjoy these discussions. Such conversations is what this place is really all about.
02-27-2019, 02:45 AM
#29
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991.1is lighter than 997..
02-27-2019, 08:29 AM
#30