At what point does the trade off of more power/speed become inferior to added weight?
02-27-2019, 11:01 PM
#31
RL Community Team
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It's not just weight in the absolute sense. It's more about power to weight ratio.
A 2500 lb car is nice in theory, but that theory goes to bunk if that car has only 25 hp.
A 2500 lb car is nice in theory, but that theory goes to bunk if that car has only 25 hp.
02-28-2019, 01:35 PM
#32
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by ipse dixit
It's not just weight in the absolute sense. It's more about power to weight ratio.
A 2500 lb car is nice in theory, but that theory goes to bunk if that car has only 25 hp.
A 2500 lb car is nice in theory, but that theory goes to bunk if that car has only 25 hp.
It's funny but when I upgraded my wife from a C300 to an E63S she thought the bigger car felt lighter. From the mouths of the innocent from whom you get the truth! Car guys convince themselves of one dimensional pseudo facts that don't square with reality.
Also someone mentioned racing cars. F1 cars have interestingly been getting heavier. Recently they have been building to the maximum weight limit rather than the minimum
02-28-2019, 02:35 PM
#33
Administrator - "Tyson"
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It's the reason I've never been able to sell our Scirocco. A UPS truck will beat it in a drag race, but some days it's just the perfect car to go terrorizing around in.
Clarkson summed it up best with the BRZ:
https://www.topgear.com/videos/jerem...s-19-episode-3
There's just something different about driving a sports car that weights about 2,500lbs or less.
02-28-2019, 08:37 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
Really, I just checked the 2019 FIA rule book and Section 4, covering weights, makes no mention of a maximum weight.
02-28-2019, 09:31 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
It’s not an issue until it’s an issue. What if the added weight is lower in the chassis and weight is reduced from the body/roof, and helps to lower center of gravity? What if the added weight improves front/rear weight distribution? From my understanding, a lot of that weight is in the transmission, which sits very low in the chassis, about same height as the center of the drive wheels. Maybe the weight also comes from reinforced drive gear in the transmission and the tranny is more robust? What if the manual is substantially lighter than the PDK? As others have stated, I’ll reserve judgement until I have driven a manual 992 for myself. Full disclosure, I have no idea what I’m talking about BTW.
02-28-2019, 11:39 PM
#36
RL Community Team
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Yes and no, all the power in the world cannot match the feeling of a well built and setup lightweight car. That's why cars like the BRZ and Miata exist. They are not really all that fast, but they are a blast to drive. Pretty much the same for every vintage British sports car.
It's the reason I've never been able to sell our Scirocco. A UPS truck will beat it in a drag race, but some days it's just the perfect car to go terrorizing around in.
Clarkson summed it up best with the BRZ:
https://www.topgear.com/videos/jerem...s-19-episode-3
There's just something different about driving a sports car that weights about 2,500lbs or less.
It's the reason I've never been able to sell our Scirocco. A UPS truck will beat it in a drag race, but some days it's just the perfect car to go terrorizing around in.
Clarkson summed it up best with the BRZ:
https://www.topgear.com/videos/jerem...s-19-episode-3
There's just something different about driving a sports car that weights about 2,500lbs or less.
03-01-2019, 01:24 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by FactoryMatt
it enhances the UX though, ceteris paribus. can't find a single engineer lobbying for weight ballast anywhere. let me know if you come across one.
When you drive a 991.1 and a 991.2 on a race track the latter is the more fun car on track. Yes it is heavier but the weight is from performance enhancing equipment.
03-01-2019, 01:49 PM
#39
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
Rennlist Member
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2000lbs is ideal car weight.
Caterham was amazing fun, but not even a real vehicle in any practical sense of the word car. Four wheel motorcycle is the best way to describe it. Lightest car I ever drove. 1250lbs maybe?
Elise great fun, not enough power below the second cam so you were always doing redline shifts to keep it on the second cam (this was challenging and good fun). 2000lbs. I did not even need to look at the fuel gauge to tell how much gas was in it. You could tell by how it handled how much was left. It also tried to kill me.
Exige S is automotive perfection. It’s not perfect (mainly because there is no rear window and did not have electronic stability control), but at 220-260hp at 2000lbs is spacious enough to daily and use for grocery runs and reliable as a Toyota but with real world, real drivers street performance that will keep up with anything in the turns. 2000-2100lbs. I have never driven a V6 Exige S, but if lotus imported the cup 430 to the US I would buy one immediately.
Hotrod aircooled great fun, but the pre-964 and really 993 chassis (which are pretty heavy cars stock) are not that stable/forgiving. A stock motor, until you get to a 2.4 E or S is not much to write home about. 2200-2300lbs for a hotrowd, more like 2500-2800lbs stock.
4C feels heavy compared to lotus and transmission is not to my liking. Same with the engine. CF chassis is cool, but it is a handgun of lbs more than bonded aluminium (lotus/Morgan) so it seems pointless to me.
Morgan aero: great fun to drive. Makes any modern 911 feel heavy. Want one and will buy one if I can find a series 2 6MT. None for sale in US and I have been looking forever. Not sure what they weigh, 2800lbs?
964/993 great fun and feel reasonably light, but not enough power. Never driven a turbo. Can’t afford a 964 3.6. I like open tops so no 993 turbo for me. I do love my 993 cab, but a light sports car it is not.
996/997 still great fun, but feel heavier than the 964/993.
991 i bought what I figured was best of breed (GT3 Touring, did not want to spend on a 911R) and while it is an amazing car, it feels big and heavy to me. I also feel like it is optimized for speeds which I will never travel. If I gutted the thing maybe it gets light enough where the heaviness goes away, but I figure it needs to lose 250lbs which would compromise usability. (Straight pipe, AC delete, interior delete etc.).
Other good cars I felt were to heavy: 997.1 turbo, 360, 430, 550.
Caveat I have not driven a stripped out 964/993/996/997/991
I don’t think the 992 will feel much different than the 991.2, at least not manual to manual, a little faster, a little heavier sort of like 996 compared to 997. But the opimal power to weight has already long surpassed the ideal weight for a sports car.
Caterham was amazing fun, but not even a real vehicle in any practical sense of the word car. Four wheel motorcycle is the best way to describe it. Lightest car I ever drove. 1250lbs maybe?
Elise great fun, not enough power below the second cam so you were always doing redline shifts to keep it on the second cam (this was challenging and good fun). 2000lbs. I did not even need to look at the fuel gauge to tell how much gas was in it. You could tell by how it handled how much was left. It also tried to kill me.
Exige S is automotive perfection. It’s not perfect (mainly because there is no rear window and did not have electronic stability control), but at 220-260hp at 2000lbs is spacious enough to daily and use for grocery runs and reliable as a Toyota but with real world, real drivers street performance that will keep up with anything in the turns. 2000-2100lbs. I have never driven a V6 Exige S, but if lotus imported the cup 430 to the US I would buy one immediately.
Hotrod aircooled great fun, but the pre-964 and really 993 chassis (which are pretty heavy cars stock) are not that stable/forgiving. A stock motor, until you get to a 2.4 E or S is not much to write home about. 2200-2300lbs for a hotrowd, more like 2500-2800lbs stock.
4C feels heavy compared to lotus and transmission is not to my liking. Same with the engine. CF chassis is cool, but it is a handgun of lbs more than bonded aluminium (lotus/Morgan) so it seems pointless to me.
Morgan aero: great fun to drive. Makes any modern 911 feel heavy. Want one and will buy one if I can find a series 2 6MT. None for sale in US and I have been looking forever. Not sure what they weigh, 2800lbs?
964/993 great fun and feel reasonably light, but not enough power. Never driven a turbo. Can’t afford a 964 3.6. I like open tops so no 993 turbo for me. I do love my 993 cab, but a light sports car it is not.
996/997 still great fun, but feel heavier than the 964/993.
991 i bought what I figured was best of breed (GT3 Touring, did not want to spend on a 911R) and while it is an amazing car, it feels big and heavy to me. I also feel like it is optimized for speeds which I will never travel. If I gutted the thing maybe it gets light enough where the heaviness goes away, but I figure it needs to lose 250lbs which would compromise usability. (Straight pipe, AC delete, interior delete etc.).
Other good cars I felt were to heavy: 997.1 turbo, 360, 430, 550.
Caveat I have not driven a stripped out 964/993/996/997/991
I don’t think the 992 will feel much different than the 991.2, at least not manual to manual, a little faster, a little heavier sort of like 996 compared to 997. But the opimal power to weight has already long surpassed the ideal weight for a sports car.
03-01-2019, 01:58 PM
#40
Burning Brakes
The Carrera has about 210 hp and weighs about 2400 lbs, for a weight ot power ratio (with a driver) of 12.4
The 991.2 has 370 hp and weighs about 3150 lbs, for a weight to power ratio (with a driver) of 9.1.
The 991.2 with its vastly superior power/weight and much larger and stickier tires would undoubtedly be quicker on the track.
But do you really think it would be more fun?
03-01-2019, 02:19 PM
#41
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
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I would pose a different question. Compare a '73 911 Carrera with a current base 991.2.
The Carrera has about 210 hp and weighs about 2400 lbs, for a weight ot power ratio (with a driver) of 12.4
The 991.2 has 370 hp and weighs about 3150 lbs, for a weight to power ratio (with a driver) of 9.1.
The 991.2 with its vastly superior power/weight and much larger and stickier tires would undoubtedly be quicker on the track.
But do you really think it would be more fun ?
The Carrera has about 210 hp and weighs about 2400 lbs, for a weight ot power ratio (with a driver) of 12.4
The 991.2 has 370 hp and weighs about 3150 lbs, for a weight to power ratio (with a driver) of 9.1.
The 991.2 with its vastly superior power/weight and much larger and stickier tires would undoubtedly be quicker on the track.
But do you really think it would be more fun ?
03-01-2019, 05:23 PM
#42
Race Car
I would pose a different question. Compare a '73 911 Carrera with a current base 991.2.
The Carrera has about 210 hp and weighs about 2400 lbs, for a weight ot power ratio (with a driver) of 12.4
The 991.2 has 370 hp and weighs about 3150 lbs, for a weight to power ratio (with a driver) of 9.1.
The 991.2 with its vastly superior power/weight and much larger and stickier tires would undoubtedly be quicker on the track.
But do you really think it would be more fun?
The Carrera has about 210 hp and weighs about 2400 lbs, for a weight ot power ratio (with a driver) of 12.4
The 991.2 has 370 hp and weighs about 3150 lbs, for a weight to power ratio (with a driver) of 9.1.
The 991.2 with its vastly superior power/weight and much larger and stickier tires would undoubtedly be quicker on the track.
But do you really think it would be more fun?
PS I campaigned my '78 SC for more than 30 years. I took my 991 out once when I got it and would not go back without a roll cage. It is vastly superior in every dimension, except pure fun.
03-02-2019, 03:27 AM
#43
Sorry, but lap times and performance numbers is always the cop out answer in this discussion. Frankly such things are irrelevant and only for bragging rights around the water cooler.
To answer the OP's question, the answer is: "Not until you drive something lighter". It's all a matter of perception and the vast majority of 992 test drivers will never find themselves behind the wheel of a pure, lightweight sports car to fully appreciate what makes that driving experience so special.
Which started over two decades ago turning the 911 into a "Grand Turismo" GT and moving away from it being a pure sports car.
This isn't a bad thing, I have a garage full of 928's which is the original Porsche GT. But at the same time it's a bit sad to see what once was a pure sports morphed into the slot the 928 was originally designed for. If hindsight could be 20/20 the 928 would have stayed in production to fill that market segment and the 911 could have remained pure to it's soul.
Anytime I climb into something that weights close to 2,000lbs I remember what that rawness feels like. No amount of technology or horsepower can replace it.
To answer the OP's question, the answer is: "Not until you drive something lighter". It's all a matter of perception and the vast majority of 992 test drivers will never find themselves behind the wheel of a pure, lightweight sports car to fully appreciate what makes that driving experience so special.
Which started over two decades ago turning the 911 into a "Grand Turismo" GT and moving away from it being a pure sports car.
This isn't a bad thing, I have a garage full of 928's which is the original Porsche GT. But at the same time it's a bit sad to see what once was a pure sports morphed into the slot the 928 was originally designed for. If hindsight could be 20/20 the 928 would have stayed in production to fill that market segment and the 911 could have remained pure to it's soul.
Anytime I climb into something that weights close to 2,000lbs I remember what that rawness feels like. No amount of technology or horsepower can replace it.
Yes and no, all the power in the world cannot match the feeling of a well built and setup lightweight car. That's why cars like the BRZ and Miata exist. They are not really all that fast, but they are a blast to drive. Pretty much the same for every vintage British sports car.
It's the reason I've never been able to sell our Scirocco. A UPS truck will beat it in a drag race, but some days it's just the perfect car to go terrorizing around in.
Clarkson summed it up best with the BRZ:
https://www.topgear.com/videos/jerem...s-19-episode-3
There's just something different about driving a sports car that weights about 2,500lbs or less.
It's the reason I've never been able to sell our Scirocco. A UPS truck will beat it in a drag race, but some days it's just the perfect car to go terrorizing around in.
Clarkson summed it up best with the BRZ:
https://www.topgear.com/videos/jerem...s-19-episode-3
There's just something different about driving a sports car that weights about 2,500lbs or less.
I would pose a different question. Compare a '73 911 Carrera with a current base 991.2.
The Carrera has about 210 hp and weighs about 2400 lbs, for a weight ot power ratio (with a driver) of 12.4
The 991.2 has 370 hp and weighs about 3150 lbs, for a weight to power ratio (with a driver) of 9.1.
The 991.2 with its vastly superior power/weight and much larger and stickier tires would undoubtedly be quicker on the track.
But do you really think it would be more fun?
The Carrera has about 210 hp and weighs about 2400 lbs, for a weight ot power ratio (with a driver) of 12.4
The 991.2 has 370 hp and weighs about 3150 lbs, for a weight to power ratio (with a driver) of 9.1.
The 991.2 with its vastly superior power/weight and much larger and stickier tires would undoubtedly be quicker on the track.
But do you really think it would be more fun?
03-05-2019, 03:29 PM
#44
AutoX
I agree with other members that ultra-light cars are good for a short blast, but are not fun to live with day-in day-out.
The 911 is the perfect all-rounder.
Heck if you want the raw lightweight experience, just get a sport / naked bike. ~450lbs and 200hp. As visceral as it gets.
The 911 is the perfect all-rounder.
Heck if you want the raw lightweight experience, just get a sport / naked bike. ~450lbs and 200hp. As visceral as it gets.
03-05-2019, 04:17 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
2000lbs is ideal car weight.
Caterham was amazing fun, but not even a real vehicle in any practical sense of the word car. Four wheel motorcycle is the best way to describe it. Lightest car I ever drove. 1250lbs maybe?
Elise great fun, not enough power below the second cam so you were always doing redline shifts to keep it on the second cam (this was challenging and good fun). 2000lbs. I did not even need to look at the fuel gauge to tell how much gas was in it. You could tell by how it handled how much was left. It also tried to kill me.
Exige S is automotive perfection. It’s not perfect (mainly because there is no rear window and did not have electronic stability control), but at 220-260hp at 2000lbs is spacious enough to daily and use for grocery runs and reliable as a Toyota but with real world, real drivers street performance that will keep up with anything in the turns. 2000-2100lbs. I have never driven a V6 Exige S, but if lotus imported the cup 430 to the US I would buy one immediately.
Hotrod aircooled great fun, but the pre-964 and really 993 chassis (which are pretty heavy cars stock) are not that stable/forgiving. A stock motor, until you get to a 2.4 E or S is not much to write home about. 2200-2300lbs for a hotrowd, more like 2500-2800lbs stock.
4C feels heavy compared to lotus and transmission is not to my liking. Same with the engine. CF chassis is cool, but it is a handgun of lbs more than bonded aluminium (lotus/Morgan) so it seems pointless to me.
Morgan aero: great fun to drive. Makes any modern 911 feel heavy. Want one and will buy one if I can find a series 2 6MT. None for sale in US and I have been looking forever. Not sure what they weigh, 2800lbs?
964/993 great fun and feel reasonably light, but not enough power. Never driven a turbo. Can’t afford a 964 3.6. I like open tops so no 993 turbo for me. I do love my 993 cab, but a light sports car it is not.
996/997 still great fun, but feel heavier than the 964/993.
991 i bought what I figured was best of breed (GT3 Touring, did not want to spend on a 911R) and while it is an amazing car, it feels big and heavy to me. I also feel like it is optimized for speeds which I will never travel. If I gutted the thing maybe it gets light enough where the heaviness goes away, but I figure it needs to lose 250lbs which would compromise usability. (Straight pipe, AC delete, interior delete etc.).
Other good cars I felt were to heavy: 997.1 turbo, 360, 430, 550.
Caveat I have not driven a stripped out 964/993/996/997/991
I don’t think the 992 will feel much different than the 991.2, at least not manual to manual, a little faster, a little heavier sort of like 996 compared to 997. But the opimal power to weight has already long surpassed the ideal weight for a sports car.
Caterham was amazing fun, but not even a real vehicle in any practical sense of the word car. Four wheel motorcycle is the best way to describe it. Lightest car I ever drove. 1250lbs maybe?
Elise great fun, not enough power below the second cam so you were always doing redline shifts to keep it on the second cam (this was challenging and good fun). 2000lbs. I did not even need to look at the fuel gauge to tell how much gas was in it. You could tell by how it handled how much was left. It also tried to kill me.
Exige S is automotive perfection. It’s not perfect (mainly because there is no rear window and did not have electronic stability control), but at 220-260hp at 2000lbs is spacious enough to daily and use for grocery runs and reliable as a Toyota but with real world, real drivers street performance that will keep up with anything in the turns. 2000-2100lbs. I have never driven a V6 Exige S, but if lotus imported the cup 430 to the US I would buy one immediately.
Hotrod aircooled great fun, but the pre-964 and really 993 chassis (which are pretty heavy cars stock) are not that stable/forgiving. A stock motor, until you get to a 2.4 E or S is not much to write home about. 2200-2300lbs for a hotrowd, more like 2500-2800lbs stock.
4C feels heavy compared to lotus and transmission is not to my liking. Same with the engine. CF chassis is cool, but it is a handgun of lbs more than bonded aluminium (lotus/Morgan) so it seems pointless to me.
Morgan aero: great fun to drive. Makes any modern 911 feel heavy. Want one and will buy one if I can find a series 2 6MT. None for sale in US and I have been looking forever. Not sure what they weigh, 2800lbs?
964/993 great fun and feel reasonably light, but not enough power. Never driven a turbo. Can’t afford a 964 3.6. I like open tops so no 993 turbo for me. I do love my 993 cab, but a light sports car it is not.
996/997 still great fun, but feel heavier than the 964/993.
991 i bought what I figured was best of breed (GT3 Touring, did not want to spend on a 911R) and while it is an amazing car, it feels big and heavy to me. I also feel like it is optimized for speeds which I will never travel. If I gutted the thing maybe it gets light enough where the heaviness goes away, but I figure it needs to lose 250lbs which would compromise usability. (Straight pipe, AC delete, interior delete etc.).
Other good cars I felt were to heavy: 997.1 turbo, 360, 430, 550.
Caveat I have not driven a stripped out 964/993/996/997/991
I don’t think the 992 will feel much different than the 991.2, at least not manual to manual, a little faster, a little heavier sort of like 996 compared to 997. But the opimal power to weight has already long surpassed the ideal weight for a sports car.
^ How are you not a 914 driver?
Agree with much of what you write above, and having driven the 992, what I bolded above.
Also agree with Hacker...there is no substitute for a light car. It's why I still miss our Abarth three years after selling it to move to a GT4 and then a 991.2. Flawed as the 2500-lb Abarth was, it scratched my itch for an A1 GTI, with a healthy dose of Carrera Abarth and a better engine than either. The 992—or any 911 from the 964 on—is very far from what the light cars we mention here intend to be. It's a grand-touring car that can move with the speed of a sports car or even an exotic car. And that's a pretty nice blend. As for me, I wouldn't want to run an Elise or Exige as a daily, even if I really like them. A 986 or 987 seemed a better compromise to me, but they aren't all that light if the Elise or 4C are the markers.
