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I argued with Garfunkel on lag. People who can’t notice it, also don’t notice many other things about driving a performance car. Traction, steering feel, brake feel, etc. They might as well drive a cheaper boosted car.
Porsche 991.2 sold much worse than 991.1, and Still most of those 991.2 sales were in China, And were poseurs buying a car for brand, not for inherent driving qualities.
I belong to this forum as well as the Corvette forum. It’s amazingly similar where the old guard complains about the new generation despite their higher performance, better technology and superior handling characteristics. I personally don’t see a down side when the worst thing most people bitch about is the sound which is simply personal taste and can be altered. I personally always favor the latest improvements. The good news for others is their is always good used cars in the vintage they like best. Either a C8 ME or 992 will be in my garage as they will both represent the best of their respective line.
Porsche is a global company and lag isn't an issue to most - its simple, you just adjust your driving style; that applies when going from turbo to NA as it does from NA to turbo. Also, GT3s don't outsell Carreras on a global basis, its not even close. This may only apply in the US where they are cheap ~160k. Not a lot of point of a 9K redline when the speed limit is 70MPH (and most 991 GT3s don't see much track time).
lag is something people love to talk about but makes zip difference in the real world and in the main isn't even noticeable in a .2. In contrast, the lack of mid-range in NA cars is very noticeable - all the time.
People will buy what they like, if its a real problem they wont buy. Clearly they do.
That's my point: U.S. And most of Porsche's global growth is coming from China who's tastes are famously antithesis to what makes a sports car, a sports car. So I wouldn't really use that as a "bragging" point.
Point is that the 991.2 Carrera's have sold significantly less in our market than previous models. Point furthered by it being outsold by the N/A, far more expensive GT models for over a year now, that's simply never happened before during a calendar year.
To me, the lag is noticeable even more than the .1's mid range in normal driving as you're not calling upon torque when putting around town anyway, but the distinct turbo-pedal feel is always there. And remember, when you're off boost, i.e in traffic, you're getting less HP/TQ than what an N/A car kicks out (hence why there is an inherent "lag" issue to begin with). My driving style is currently adjusted to the N/A powerband so I don't really feel any "lack of torque." Either I'm cruising around town and not needing any more torque than what I'm getting, or when driving aggressively, I'm in the proper powerband where generous enough torque is achieved. I'd say that if you find the .1 to have "too little" torque, you should adjust your driving style.
The .2 GTS felt IMMENSELY powerful and very fun to me, but the FIRST thing I noticed when driving it, after getting out of my .1, was the lag. It was also much more apparent than the slighter lag in the .2 base cars. We can say "adjust your driving style" to any type of car. Such as me adjusting mine to get torque I consider plentiful out of a base .1. However, some things simply aren't to our tastes, and for me, turbo lag is one of those. Was in my N55 BMW, Macan S, etc. It's just something I'm sensitive to as it takes me away from connecting with the car, like a disconnection filter of sorts that affects overall engagement.
The 991.1 isn't missing midrange if you have it in the right gear and don't granny shift. Neither is better or worse - just very different.
Exactly. Interesting to me that those who would say "adjust your driving style" to "get over" the lag, also don't understand how to adapt ones driving to squeeze torque out of an N/A motor with not drastically less absolute power.
Originally Posted by Drifting
I argued with Garfunkel on lag. People who can’t notice it, also don’t notice many other things about driving a performance car. Traction, steering feel, brake feel, etc. They might as well drive a cheaper boosted car.
Porsche 991.2 sold much worse than 991.1, and Still most of those 991.2 sales were in China, And were poseurs buying a car for brand, not for inherent driving qualities.
I belong to this forum as well as the Corvette forum. It’s amazingly similar where the old guard complains about the new generation despite their higher performance, better technology and superior handling characteristics. I personally don’t see a down side when the worst thing most people bitch about is the sound which is simply personal taste and can be altered. I personally always favor the latest improvements. The good news for others is their is always good used cars in the vintage they like best. Either a C8 ME or 992 will be in my garage as they will both represent the best of their respective line.
what do the corvette guys complain about? Corvette still has NA engine, less of a growth in size of the car compared to 911s over time.
what do the corvette guys complain about? Corvette still has NA engine, less of a growth in size of the car compared to 911s over time.
On the C7 it was more the visual cues. One big hate was going from round to “Camaro” shaped tail lights. From their it ranged from the looks of the rear end in general to a host of other things. Of course the big anticipation now is the ME. Many of the old guard thinks the Corvette should remain FE despite the inherent performance gains of a ME design. Coming from a C7 that was traction challenged I think the ME is the right direction for an improved product. I currently own a 2017 C2S and love it. The ME Corvette is the only other car I would shop due to my price point. But it will need to be very good to keep me from buying a new 992 C2S. I never liked Corvettes before the C7 and I didn’t like 911’s before the 991.1. When I purchased my car, I drove a 991.1 C2S and a 991.2 C2S back to back at the same dealership and I strongly preferred the 991.2. Most likely due to better low/mid range torque coming from a C7. I also felt the 991.2 was better in several other important areas.
Vette guys only complain about the C7 looks which is a huge departure from other Vettes. They're fortunate in that GM didn't break the cycle that made them desire the car so heavily otherwise. I.e it's still a pushrod V8, still N/A, still a long hood front engine, and even though I am not a Vette fan at all, I give GM props for perfecting the Corvette formula to its peak potential, much like Porsche has the 911. Except even with the 911, they lost a segment of us with the downsized turbo cars, and now with the 992 the interior formula completely changes as well.
HOWEVER, Vette guys will be kicking and screaming into a hurricane once the mid engine Vette comes out. It will be an entirely new car then. That model will certainly largely shift the Vette buyer demographic, far more so than even the C7. Will it sell as well as previous Vettes? Remains to be seen, but it's a risky move messing with the longstanding formula. You know who is probably MOST upset with said ME Vette? Porsche and other sports car manufacturers, because no doubt it will be a miraculous performer, I resent having to say.
HOWEVER, Vette guys will be kicking and screaming into a hurricane once the mid engine Vette comes out. It will be an entirely new car then. That model will certainly largely shift the Vette buyer demographic, far more so than even the C7. Will it sell as well as previous Vettes? Remains to be seen, but it's a risky move messing with the longstanding formula. You know who is probably MOST upset with said ME Vette? Porsche and other sports car manufacturers, because no doubt it will be a miraculous performer, I resent having to say.
Well, to stay competitive in racing, GM basically had to go mid-engine in the Vette to stay with the Ford GT, 911 RSR, and 488 all being mid-engine. It's been a while since a Covette won Le Mans.
Well, to stay competitive in racing, GM basically had to go mid-engine in the Vette to stay with the Ford GT, 911 RSR, and 488 all being mid-engine. It's been a while since a Covette won Le Mans.
Oh right, I didn't think about the racing aspect. A mid engined Vette is gonna be a freaking beast and can be a huge thorn in the 911's side. Corvette already defied odds with a package that looks sloppy on paper (Pushrods? T Tops? Long hood front engine?), so I can imagine what it'll do on a true sports car platform.
They have not had T-tops in years, and while you can get a Targa top you can also get a hard top (I had a couple C4, which had T-tops and a couple C7s with Targas). Lot of car for not a lot of money but in a different league as compared to a P-car.
I argued with Garfunkel on lag. People who can’t notice it, also don’t notice many other things about driving a performance car. Traction, steering feel, brake feel, etc. They might as well drive a cheaper boosted car.
Porsche 991.2 sold much worse than 991.1, and Still most of those 991.2 sales were in China, And were poseurs buying a car for brand, not for inherent driving qualities.
Its funny, those that compete in their cars accept them for their strengths and their weaknesses and adapt. Your second sentence doesn't bear scruitny
"The 911 also saw double-digit growth with an increase of 28 per cent" Source Porsche News Room August 2018.
I note that sales fell in the PRC
Good drivers adapt, modify and frankly move on. Its simply a question of gear selection relative to RPM. This applies to both NA and turbo engines. Porsche have moved on, so has the market
Moderately modified 991.2 GTS vs. 991.1 GT3 (Cobb stage 1 tune, catless exhaust, AMS intercoolers, BMC air filter, IPD plenum). I'll take a couple tenths of a second lag for over 200 lb-ft of torque at 4k rpm anyday. At 3k rpms, it's more like 230-240 lb-ft difference. If you look at the top 2k rpms of each powerband which is what you'd use on track, the 991.2 still has more power/area under the curve.
If we're just comparing based on Dyno graphs then I'll take a 2018 Mustang GT over either or a ZL1.... Drops mic.
Also - comparing modified cars is ridiculous. Picks up mic from floor. Drops mic again..
I argued with Garfunkel on lag. People who can’t notice it, also don’t notice many other things about driving a performance car. Traction, steering feel, brake feel, etc. They might as well drive a cheaper boosted car.
Porsche 991.2 sold much worse than 991.1, and Still most of those 991.2 sales were in China, And were poseurs buying a car for brand, not for inherent driving qualities.
You have a funny way of arguing I believe you are spot on with this post.
I belong to this forum as well as the Corvette forum. It’s amazingly similar where the old guard complains about the new generation despite their higher performance, better technology and superior handling characteristics. I personally don’t see a down side when the worst thing most people bitch about is the sound which is simply personal taste and can be altered. I personally always favor the latest improvements. The good news for others is their is always good used cars in the vintage they like best. Either a C8 ME or 992 will be in my garage as they will both represent the best of their respective line.
The new cars aren't that much improved in terms of performance or handling.
~3 seconds around the entire ring from 991.1 to 991.2. Also - the 991.1S MURDERS the 991.2; very contrary to the propaganda typed here. BTW, the S times had RWS on the 991.2 for the ring....
12-26-2018, 10:06 PM
