What a difference the last 20 years has made on the 911
08-02-2018, 02:09 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by blepski
I certainly appreciate your comments and opinions on this but please understand this is not a trial , it's an enthusiast discussion forum where opinion is the norm. Are there physical documents with supporting facts somewhere about Porsche's financial trouble in the 90's? Sure , but no one from the public will ever see it and the grumblings of their head brass in the early 2000's can be taken with a grain of salt as they had their own agenda just the same. What you can find with research is that it was the Boxster and and 996 that saved Porsche from financial ruin NOT the Cayenne that was produced on the prosperity of the redesigned sports cars that pulled the company back up.
To get your head around where I'm coming from look at other examples of boutique sports car companies that have managed to stay afloat without succumbing to one of the most senseless trends in the automotive industry ( my opinion of course) which is the "sports" SUV. For the time being anyways....
Opening up to the mass market appeal is what , again in my opinion, steered the company into the mainstream with the sports car's unfortunately falling into that same mindset. Not convinced? Ask yourself why the current and future 911 exterior and interior styling now mimics the mass market appealing Panamera , Macan and Cayennes.
What I miss is a time ( the 90's) when Porsche's did not have or really care for mass market appeal and their products reflected that. My 991 is a great car and in an industry now filled with watered down products it still stands above , but it's so far from the 993 and even the 996 that it's hard to draw anything but basic parallels from what they used to be and the 992 will be even further removed. That's what this thread was all about.
I also don't agree with your parallel to Porsche design or tractors, your missing the point as neither of these or any of the other examples cited have anything to do with walking into a Porsche dealer showroom flooded with "sport" SUV's rather than the sports cars they made their name with.
I do agree that so long as Porsche produces good sports cars I will be a buyer of them , however, the mystique is part of the experience and the experience of owning a Porsche for many like myself that have owned them for decades is just as important as the drive.
To get your head around where I'm coming from look at other examples of boutique sports car companies that have managed to stay afloat without succumbing to one of the most senseless trends in the automotive industry ( my opinion of course) which is the "sports" SUV. For the time being anyways....
Opening up to the mass market appeal is what , again in my opinion, steered the company into the mainstream with the sports car's unfortunately falling into that same mindset. Not convinced? Ask yourself why the current and future 911 exterior and interior styling now mimics the mass market appealing Panamera , Macan and Cayennes.
What I miss is a time ( the 90's) when Porsche's did not have or really care for mass market appeal and their products reflected that. My 991 is a great car and in an industry now filled with watered down products it still stands above , but it's so far from the 993 and even the 996 that it's hard to draw anything but basic parallels from what they used to be and the 992 will be even further removed. That's what this thread was all about.
I also don't agree with your parallel to Porsche design or tractors, your missing the point as neither of these or any of the other examples cited have anything to do with walking into a Porsche dealer showroom flooded with "sport" SUV's rather than the sports cars they made their name with.
I do agree that so long as Porsche produces good sports cars I will be a buyer of them , however, the mystique is part of the experience and the experience of owning a Porsche for many like myself that have owned them for decades is just as important as the drive.
In addition, you feel that walking into a Porsche dealership and seeing SUVs makes you feel like Porsche has lost its way, but that Porsche selling items completely unrelated to the 911 experience (sunglasses, bicycles, plastic toy cars) is okay. Does their mission and literature from 20 years ago include Porsche steak knives?
Which is it? Pick a lane.
Personally I've been fortunate to have owned multiple 911's and a Macan also. IMO, it's the best combination of sports car and SUV that fits my needs. I still don't understand how other individuals driving a Porsche SUV impacts your 911 driving experience in any way. I'm pretty secure with my choices and don't really care what others are driving or the badge on their cars.
08-02-2018, 02:26 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
The cars that I've purchased include the Panamera, 991.2 C4S, and Cayenne. I've been very pleased that I can go to one brand and buy a different car depending on my needs:-) Porsche still has exclusivity within their brand (e.g., GT3, 918, etc.). The guys that I know who own GT3 RSs, including 2 guys that own 918s have no concern about dilution of the brand due to Porsche's ventures into the SUV and sedan category. Those individuals I speak of have been loyal to this brand for years and their loyalty will continue. I'd say just enjoy the brand, have fun and buy what you like:-)
08-02-2018, 03:10 PM
#33
This is a great question to ask but also one that is very difficult to answer. The 911 is no different than any other long running highly regarded car so the complaints are all the same. Loss of character , feel , build quality etc. For some reason though because the 911 ( primarily the 993) held onto it's core virtues for so long it just made it that much more difficult to accept the newer modern versions especially the 991 and worse the 991.2 which was obviously is the furthest removed from a core 911.
To answer your question to some degree I would say the ideal way a 991 / 991.2 should have been would be smaller in size and less complex. As you can see from the upcoming 992 this is the exact opposite of where the 911 is headed.
08-02-2018, 06:21 PM
#34
I think some of your argument is hypocritical. You agreed with the poster that stated that the Macan is a "warmed over Q5" , presumably lamenting that buyers only purchase it because of its Porsche name/branding, but later state that a big part of your Porsche experience is the Porsche mystique. In my mind, that's just another way of saying that you've bought into the branding also.
In addition, you feel that walking into a Porsche dealership and seeing SUVs makes you feel like Porsche has lost its way, but that Porsche selling items completely unrelated to the 911 experience (sunglasses, bicycles, plastic toy cars) is okay. Does their mission and literature from 20 years ago include Porsche steak knives?
Which is it? Pick a lane.
Personally I've been fortunate to have owned multiple 911's and a Macan also. IMO, it's the best combination of sports car and SUV that fits my needs. I still don't understand how other individuals driving a Porsche SUV impacts your 911 driving experience in any way. I'm pretty secure with my choices and don't really care what others are driving or the badge on their cars.
In addition, you feel that walking into a Porsche dealership and seeing SUVs makes you feel like Porsche has lost its way, but that Porsche selling items completely unrelated to the 911 experience (sunglasses, bicycles, plastic toy cars) is okay. Does their mission and literature from 20 years ago include Porsche steak knives?
Which is it? Pick a lane.
Personally I've been fortunate to have owned multiple 911's and a Macan also. IMO, it's the best combination of sports car and SUV that fits my needs. I still don't understand how other individuals driving a Porsche SUV impacts your 911 driving experience in any way. I'm pretty secure with my choices and don't really care what others are driving or the badge on their cars.
What your also not understanding is that I believe it's the sales of these Porsche SUV's and now the Panamera that has steered the company into the mainstream which unfortunately has found way into their enthusiast products ( sports cars). As an example the upcoming 992 would never be getting the horrid touch sensitive center console and gimmicky LCD instrument cluster if it weren't for the mainstream acceptability of it in the current Panamera. You follow? So if it's the success and acceptance of these mainstream products that alters the trajectory of the enthusiast products than can you understand how that might effect us?
08-02-2018, 08:02 PM
#36
Race Car
"It's still the only brand you can buy in the showroom and beat mercilessly on the track
If sad to see the 911 get big and heavy, get a cayman"
You make a good point. It is from engineering performance applications that 911s grew in wheelbase and length (several times), rear and front track and width (and flares to cover the wider wheels), larger wheels (to house larger diameter brake disks). The automated shifting dual clutch (PDK) transmission was also an innovation for racing way before it showed up for non racing use. Add in larger displacement engines - and the knock-on effect of heavier duty components, and mandated safety features, and you get a larger, heavier - but vastly safer structure.
To me the new wider front track width and flares (front and back) makes the 992 look less "pure" than the 991, not so much less than the old "turbo-look" G body or 993 was "less pure" than its predecessors-- but just as cool.
If sad to see the 911 get big and heavy, get a cayman"
You make a good point. It is from engineering performance applications that 911s grew in wheelbase and length (several times), rear and front track and width (and flares to cover the wider wheels), larger wheels (to house larger diameter brake disks). The automated shifting dual clutch (PDK) transmission was also an innovation for racing way before it showed up for non racing use. Add in larger displacement engines - and the knock-on effect of heavier duty components, and mandated safety features, and you get a larger, heavier - but vastly safer structure.
To me the new wider front track width and flares (front and back) makes the 992 look less "pure" than the 991, not so much less than the old "turbo-look" G body or 993 was "less pure" than its predecessors-- but just as cool.
08-02-2018, 08:11 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by blepski
What your missing is that the Porsche mystique for me has nothing to do with marketing but rather with the storied history of the brand and being in awe of their design over the years.
What your also not understanding is that I believe it's the sales of these Porsche SUV's and now the Panamera that has steered the company into the mainstream which unfortunately has found way into their enthusiast products ( sports cars). As an example the upcoming 992 would never be getting the horrid touch sensitive center console and gimmicky LCD instrument cluster if it weren't for the mainstream acceptability of it in the current Panamera. You follow? So if it's the success and acceptance of these mainstream products that alters the trajectory of the enthusiast products than can you understand how that might effect us?
What your also not understanding is that I believe it's the sales of these Porsche SUV's and now the Panamera that has steered the company into the mainstream which unfortunately has found way into their enthusiast products ( sports cars). As an example the upcoming 992 would never be getting the horrid touch sensitive center console and gimmicky LCD instrument cluster if it weren't for the mainstream acceptability of it in the current Panamera. You follow? So if it's the success and acceptance of these mainstream products that alters the trajectory of the enthusiast products than can you understand how that might effect us?
08-02-2018, 10:04 PM
#38
I think Porsche has no choice but to be modern and have all the latest gadgets even in their sports cars to remain relevant. I can’t imagine them becoming similar to a Lotus to remain “pure”. And they’ve perfected the balance of tech and feel which in my opinion, even big brands like BMW or MB has not accomplished yet. The residual values show.
While previous gen 911’s still look beautiful for me, I think even a modern Camry has much a better finish vs say not too old 993,996,997. The 991 is such a step above and the 991.2’s steering wheel design alone is so much nicer than the .1. I also thought I’d hate the electric steering feel of 991’s but the 991.2 feel is probably the best among all cars at the moment especially in something like a GT3. So I’m very excited what the 992’s will bring once it’s out as I already think 991.2’s are already top game.
About 911’s getting too big, I once got a 981 Cayman just to see if it feels more nimble than 991’s. But not long after, I sold the Cayman again as the difference was so little and apart from sound, even the latest base 911 was better engineered overall. Nothing wrong with the Cayman because for its asking price, it was hard to beat also.
This made me appreciate Porsche more as they make something for everybody. Pricey but reachable unlike say, Italian exotics.
While previous gen 911’s still look beautiful for me, I think even a modern Camry has much a better finish vs say not too old 993,996,997. The 991 is such a step above and the 991.2’s steering wheel design alone is so much nicer than the .1. I also thought I’d hate the electric steering feel of 991’s but the 991.2 feel is probably the best among all cars at the moment especially in something like a GT3. So I’m very excited what the 992’s will bring once it’s out as I already think 991.2’s are already top game.
About 911’s getting too big, I once got a 981 Cayman just to see if it feels more nimble than 991’s. But not long after, I sold the Cayman again as the difference was so little and apart from sound, even the latest base 911 was better engineered overall. Nothing wrong with the Cayman because for its asking price, it was hard to beat also.
This made me appreciate Porsche more as they make something for everybody. Pricey but reachable unlike say, Italian exotics.
08-03-2018, 02:09 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
The approach to keeping tradition and barely innovate made them almost go bankrupt at times. They've changed pace and are now at the forefront of technological development and more successful than ever. I feel like as engineer Ferdinand Porsche would have been quite happy to see Porsche as they are now.
Porsche has come a long way and done amazing things to ensure its viability into the foreseeable future. For me though the last modern Porsche I owned was the wonderful 997 GT3RS Mk1 which I sold over 5 years ago.
As I get older I get more nostalgic needing less speed and performance, and gravitate towards the 911s I had when I was a little younger. They aren't daily drivers by todays standards but they are almost tolerable compared to the earlier long nose classics but still ooze character.
The new cars are amazing do it all cars. But they are a little too accomplished and good for me now. If I need comfort I jump into my Suv. For everything else I go to the old small air cooleds.
08-03-2018, 03:42 AM
#40
08-03-2018, 11:03 AM
#41
The lower build quality comment isn't an attack on Porsche specifically. These modern Porsche's are no different than any other higher end vehicle these days when compared to the car's built 20 years ago. Really what is happening in the industry now is that the " perceived " quality is very high by concentrating on the interior surfaces and items that the normal consumer interacts with.
It's when you get under the skin or under the car that this lower build quality becomes very noticeable. Cheap plastic everything ( clips, brackets , cheap rubber grommet locking tabs, plastic hoses, even the brake pedal bracket is a molded plastic piece! ) computer modules sitting in a block of Styrofoam, questionable plastic components on the engine itself, expensive non serviceable components ( electric steering rack , PDK transmissions) etc. etc. are all the latest tactics utilized by manufactures of just about everything these days. The quality of a vehicle for me is just as important in these areas as any other.
Take a look inside the engine compartment hatch of the 991 for another example, Porsche has made the servicing of the vehicle impossible without disassembly of the rear of the car yet used the same cheap clips , grommets plug connectors and brackets for holding the cooling fans, taillights, rear spoiler and rear bumper cover in place. Ask yourself how many times can one be expected to remove and reinstall these cheap components before a failure results in unexpected down time or inability to finish a service without replacing a bumper bracket , plug connector etc.
If your looking for easy examples that you can see, look no further than the flimsy door panels that move back and forth while pulling on the handle to close them , the quickly fading windshield cowls, the paintwork and windshields that lack considerable durability. Basically, these modern cars lack the " built to last" feel that the older 911's had. Add in all the frivolous technology ( Nav and cluster screens, electronic modules galore, rear steering , PDK ) and what you have is a car so complicated and difficult to service that I fear owning one well into the future may prove a disappointing endeavor for some , but I realize that most don't care which is exactly why the new cars are built this way in the first place.