All season tires
09-25-2024, 03:39 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
What you say above may have been true 5 or so years ago, but both Michelin and Continental have developed significant rubber compound improvements to their ultra-high-performance (UHP) all season tires to the point that their performance nearly matches summer max performance tires for even summer street driving. You can't heat tires up on the street anywhere close to the temps seen in extended track sessions because you can only do short bursts if you want to retain your license to drive. You need a lot of max braking and high-G cornering to get to track-level tire temps.
The pro race drivers at the Corvette and Cadillac high performance driving schools at Spring Mt. have tested the OEM Michelin PS4S max performance tires vs. the AS4 and found the lap times to be nearly identical for the first 3-5 laps. After that, heat-build up produces a significant advantage for the summer tire. However, you can't do that in street use and stay out of jail.
The Continental DWS 06+ performs nearly as well as the AS4, the difference is round-off error, and that's the tire I use year-round because AS4s are not currently available in both OEM front and rear sizes for the Turbo S.
There are different classes of all season tires, just as there are for summer tires, and the UHP all season category has significantly closed the grip gap with street summer performance tires like the OEM P-Zero and PS4S. Then there is the massive added benefit of UHP all season being significantly better than the PS4S at temps below 60ºF down to sub-zero temps.
Tire technology is progressing faster than the user knowledge base. If you're tracking, then absolutely yes you'll benefit from a good max performance summer tire. If you're street-only, you won't.
The pro race drivers at the Corvette and Cadillac high performance driving schools at Spring Mt. have tested the OEM Michelin PS4S max performance tires vs. the AS4 and found the lap times to be nearly identical for the first 3-5 laps. After that, heat-build up produces a significant advantage for the summer tire. However, you can't do that in street use and stay out of jail.
The Continental DWS 06+ performs nearly as well as the AS4, the difference is round-off error, and that's the tire I use year-round because AS4s are not currently available in both OEM front and rear sizes for the Turbo S.
There are different classes of all season tires, just as there are for summer tires, and the UHP all season category has significantly closed the grip gap with street summer performance tires like the OEM P-Zero and PS4S. Then there is the massive added benefit of UHP all season being significantly better than the PS4S at temps below 60ºF down to sub-zero temps.
Tire technology is progressing faster than the user knowledge base. If you're tracking, then absolutely yes you'll benefit from a good max performance summer tire. If you're street-only, you won't.
For example, the best max perf summer tires from 5 years ago versus today yields faster lap times on the same car.
09-25-2024, 05:54 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
One of the reasons for that test is that GM now uses as the AS4 UHP all season as an OEM tire on C8 Stingrays and E-Rays.
What I said was that the belief, often articulated here, that today's max performance summer tires are vastly superior to today's Michelin and Conti UHP all season in street use is at least 5 years out of date.
Track use is a different story, but clearly a bunch of folks are convinced they just have to have track-worthy tires for street use even though they're not using 7/10ths of what a tire like the AS4 is capable of.
Last edited by Foosh; Yesterday at 10:18 AM. Reason: typo
Yesterday, 12:10 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
I think you missed something. The testing I cited was today's Michelin UHP all season (AS4) vs. today's Michelin max performance summer street tires (PS4S), which are OEM to Porsche now.
One of the reasons for that test is that GM now uses as the AS4 UHP all season as an OEM tire on C8 Stingrays and E-Rays.
What I said was that the belief, often articulated here, that today's max performance summer tires are vastly superior to today's Michelin and Conti UHP all season in street use is at least 5 years out of date.
Track use is a different story, but clearly a bunch of folks are convinced they just have to have track-worthy tires for street use even though they're not using 7/10ths of what a tire like the AS4 is capable of.
One of the reasons for that test is that GM now uses as the AS4 UHP all season as an OEM tire on C8 Stingrays and E-Rays.
What I said was that the belief, often articulated here, that today's max performance summer tires are vastly superior to today's Michelin and Conti UHP all season in street use is at least 5 years out of date.
Track use is a different story, but clearly a bunch of folks are convinced they just have to have track-worthy tires for street use even though they're not using 7/10ths of what a tire like the AS4 is capable of.
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Foosh (Yesterday)
Yesterday, 02:18 PM
#19
Burning Brakes
In one of my Spring Mt. visits, the Chief Instructor told me they were quite surprised that the AS4 hung with the PS4S for 3-5 10/10ths laps. They now recommend to students that they stay on the AS4 if they are not going to track the car, because it is a much better tire when cool and cold, but still as good in hot temps because all you can sanely do on the street is to get into the temperature region produced by the first few track laps. That's the region where it performs essentially as well as the PS4S.
Summer max performance tires only achieve max grip at the high temps achieved with hard use in extended track sessions. That's the region where the PS4S is clearly better because the AS4s will begin to fade after few very hard laps. On the street, when you are engaged in spirited driving like corner-carving you may run hard for short periods, but you also do a lot of slowing down for traffic, and in order to retain your driver's license, which allows the tires to cool down again.
The big breakthrough was Corvette's decision to use a UHP all season tire as OEM on a high performance car like the C8 because they are that good. Of course, if you order the "track package" on the Stingray or the Z06, you'll still get the PS4S. However, a lot of C8 owners with track package cars are switching to the AS4 because of their year-round benefits.
It puzzles me to no end that Porsche has not yet worked with a tire manufacturer to endorse an N-spec UHP all season, which would benefit a large segment of their 911 and 718 customers, who will never put their cars on a track. It's silly for Porsche to only recommend max performance summers or snow tires only, when there are much better alternatives for a large slice of the US, and where there is no need for snow tires, but it does get cold enough to benefit from UHP all seasons.
Maybe Corvette's move will motivate Porsche to rethink this issue, but I doubt it. I've always driven all my sports cars year-round, and after years of tire swaps every summer and winter, as well as having two dedicated sets for one car, I'm ecstatic to have left that ritual behind. Dedicated winter tires are nowhere near good as UHP all seasons on dry cold pavement.
Summer max performance tires only achieve max grip at the high temps achieved with hard use in extended track sessions. That's the region where the PS4S is clearly better because the AS4s will begin to fade after few very hard laps. On the street, when you are engaged in spirited driving like corner-carving you may run hard for short periods, but you also do a lot of slowing down for traffic, and in order to retain your driver's license, which allows the tires to cool down again.
The big breakthrough was Corvette's decision to use a UHP all season tire as OEM on a high performance car like the C8 because they are that good. Of course, if you order the "track package" on the Stingray or the Z06, you'll still get the PS4S. However, a lot of C8 owners with track package cars are switching to the AS4 because of their year-round benefits.
It puzzles me to no end that Porsche has not yet worked with a tire manufacturer to endorse an N-spec UHP all season, which would benefit a large segment of their 911 and 718 customers, who will never put their cars on a track. It's silly for Porsche to only recommend max performance summers or snow tires only, when there are much better alternatives for a large slice of the US, and where there is no need for snow tires, but it does get cold enough to benefit from UHP all seasons.
Maybe Corvette's move will motivate Porsche to rethink this issue, but I doubt it. I've always driven all my sports cars year-round, and after years of tire swaps every summer and winter, as well as having two dedicated sets for one car, I'm ecstatic to have left that ritual behind. Dedicated winter tires are nowhere near good as UHP all seasons on dry cold pavement.
Last edited by Foosh; Yesterday at 02:50 PM.
Today, 12:03 AM
#20
Drifting
With the Perelli tires that I purchased, the rears are N rated, but the fronts are not. The exact same tire, but the fronts are not N rated. Exact tire. They’re on there anyway and they’re fine
Today, 11:08 AM
#21
Three Wheelin'
In one of my Spring Mt. visits, the Chief Instructor told me they were quite surprised that the AS4 hung with the PS4S for 3-5 10/10ths laps. They now recommend to students that they stay on the AS4 if they are not going to track the car, because it is a much better tire when cool and cold, but still as good in hot temps because all you can sanely do on the street is to get into the temperature region produced by the first few track laps. That's the region where it performs essentially as well as the PS4S.
Summer max performance tires only achieve max grip at the high temps achieved with hard use in extended track sessions. That's the region where the PS4S is clearly better because the AS4s will begin to fade after few very hard laps. On the street, when you are engaged in spirited driving like corner-carving you may run hard for short periods, but you also do a lot of slowing down for traffic, and in order to retain your driver's license, which allows the tires to cool down again.
The big breakthrough was Corvette's decision to use a UHP all season tire as OEM on a high performance car like the C8 because they are that good. Of course, if you order the "track package" on the Stingray or the Z06, you'll still get the PS4S. However, a lot of C8 owners with track package cars are switching to the AS4 because of their year-round benefits.
It puzzles me to no end that Porsche has not yet worked with a tire manufacturer to endorse an N-spec UHP all season, which would benefit a large segment of their 911 and 718 customers, who will never put their cars on a track. It's silly for Porsche to only recommend max performance summers or snow tires only, when there are much better alternatives for a large slice of the US, and where there is no need for snow tires, but it does get cold enough to benefit from UHP all seasons.
Maybe Corvette's move will motivate Porsche to rethink this issue, but I doubt it. I've always driven all my sports cars year-round, and after years of tire swaps every summer and winter, as well as having two dedicated sets for one car, I'm ecstatic to have left that ritual behind. Dedicated winter tires are nowhere near good as UHP all seasons on dry cold pavement.
Summer max performance tires only achieve max grip at the high temps achieved with hard use in extended track sessions. That's the region where the PS4S is clearly better because the AS4s will begin to fade after few very hard laps. On the street, when you are engaged in spirited driving like corner-carving you may run hard for short periods, but you also do a lot of slowing down for traffic, and in order to retain your driver's license, which allows the tires to cool down again.
The big breakthrough was Corvette's decision to use a UHP all season tire as OEM on a high performance car like the C8 because they are that good. Of course, if you order the "track package" on the Stingray or the Z06, you'll still get the PS4S. However, a lot of C8 owners with track package cars are switching to the AS4 because of their year-round benefits.
It puzzles me to no end that Porsche has not yet worked with a tire manufacturer to endorse an N-spec UHP all season, which would benefit a large segment of their 911 and 718 customers, who will never put their cars on a track. It's silly for Porsche to only recommend max performance summers or snow tires only, when there are much better alternatives for a large slice of the US, and where there is no need for snow tires, but it does get cold enough to benefit from UHP all seasons.
Maybe Corvette's move will motivate Porsche to rethink this issue, but I doubt it. I've always driven all my sports cars year-round, and after years of tire swaps every summer and winter, as well as having two dedicated sets for one car, I'm ecstatic to have left that ritual behind. Dedicated winter tires are nowhere near good as UHP all seasons on dry cold pavement.
Last edited by CanAutM3; Today at 12:18 PM.
Today, 12:31 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
When I first posted here, I had forgotten that the 992 Turbos had moved to 20" front and 21" rears. My Turbo S is a 991, which is 20" front and rear, and the DWS06+ is available in OEM sizes for those cars. I purchased them from Tire Rack, and they are a recommended tire for my make and model.
Today, 03:53 PM
#24
Three Wheelin'
They are not the “exact same” tire. Each OE spec tires have their own specifics built into their design, varying from tread pattern, tread compound, contact patch shape, carcass construction/rigidity, etc. Don’t be fooled by the fact that they have the same name and same dimension nomenclature.
Today, 04:27 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'