991.1 Base vs Cayman GTS - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums



991
Sponsored by: Sonnen Porsche

991.1 Base vs Cayman GTS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-05-2017, 07:54 AM   #1
K-A
User
Thread Starter
 
K-A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 355
Default 991.1 Base vs Cayman GTS

I see a lot of discussions re: 991.1 S vs Cayman S/GTS, but looking at all these cars, the current 991.1 Base prices and Cayman GTS prices are nearly identical, which puts them directly in competition.

Unfortunately for me, my headroom limitations have just about made my decision (991 with no sunroof as the extra inch or so it provides namely at the sides and rear go a decent way into making it feel more comfortable and fit for me), and also unfortunately, it's made my search an absolute PITA (try looking for a low mileage, right color, pristine 991 with no sunroof and at least SOME options you hope to get). Getting a Cayman GTS seems like such a great "out of the box" option as it comes with all the exterior/interior/performance goodies basically standard.

Aside from that, I'm still toying with the Cayman GTS because it's fun on wheels, and I truly feel it will be a future classic, not as much as, but sort of on the heels of the GT4 (last of the N/A Flat 6, in its most special incarnations, imo a recipe for success, even considering the performance is lacking from the auditory lacking 718).

So I'm curious as to what Rennlisters think in regards to a BASE 991.1 with let's say NO performance options (standard suspension, no PASM), VS a standard Cayman GTS.

Looks are subjective, and to me the 991 is pure sporty iconic class, maybe the most timeless design out there period. But the CGTS is also an absolute masterpiece, imo it can look good next to literally any car out there, Supercar, Hypercar, you name it. As a shopper of both cars, I REALLY like how the CGTS gives you all the aggressive "racy" goodies as standard; black wheels, bespoke bumpers, PSE, alcantara inside, etc. I'll be lucky to find a Base 991.1 with no sunroof and any exterior options.

Performance is trickier. I know the 911 is meant to outperform its equal generation Cayman, but an all base 991 vs a Cayman GTS? Seems like a tough one. No doubt the Cayman will be more fun, of course at the expense of some 991 comfort. I also would imagine straight line speed should be a wash? I like the fact that with the C GTS you know you'll get at least PASM, and PSE (that SOUND alone, in its amplified form is perhaps the most enticing aspect).

Another one I'm pondering: Future resale. Like I said, I do think the 981 Cayman GTS will always hold its value well as the peak of the "normal" (i.e non GT4) Cayman Flat 6's (though the fact that there are probably as many, if not more GT4's, and the fact that they're the revered GT4's might keep GTS's from ever truly excelling). And I think regardless of how exceptionally the 718's DO drive, in 10+ years, the 981 F6 Cayman's will be selling for considerably more than this generation of 718's. I also think the 991 N/A cars will hold values well in the future. But we're talking a base 991 vs a "special" Cayman. We're also talking the last of the N/A version of the iconic 911. Yet again, the N/A vs F/I aspect (991) isn't as staunch as the N/A Flat 6 vs F/I Flat 4 comparison (981).

Another big factor is that to get a 991.1 Base at a similar price to a 981 GTS, you have to get a '13-'14, which means the Cayman will have guaranteed warranty, and longer warranty.

Anyway, as I'm going through the typical confusions and frustrations of trying to find the right used Porsche, I was wondering your takes. Thanks.
K-A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 08:29 AM   #2
NoGaBiker
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
NoGaBiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Midtown Atlanta
Posts: 2,359
Default

As to value...

"Past performance is no gaurantee of future results" and all that, but one set of historical metrics is "Base 911 vs. Top-O-The-Line Any Other Porsche." 72 911T vs '72 914-6. 89 Carrera 3.2 vs. 89 944 Turbo S. 95 993 C2 vs 95 928 GTS. 2004 996C2 vs 2004 986 SE550.

In every case I can think of (possible exception of 65 911 vs 63 356 2000GS/GT), the 911 eviscerates the other Porsche in value.

And I say that as a man who just traded a 136k MSRP 911 for a 103k MSRP GT4 + $7000. (Caveat: my 911 was a year older and had 12000 miles vs 4500 on the GT4. But still...)

Whether in the long run the GT4 will wear the Motorsports Dept.'s special Magic Pixie Dust and hold its value better than contemporary 911s is a crap shoot. History has only the example of the 924 Carrera GTS and GTR, and they bring a healthy dollar, even compared to '70s 911s. But they were made in quantities of, iirc, 17 GTRs and such. GT4 was 1200 in North America, iirc.

Okay, you say, the GT4 is already a better short-term investment, and has a shot at being a better mid- and long-term play than a base 991, or any other Carrera for that matter. But what about a regular assembly line 981, even a GTS? How will it do over time?

I think it will do worse than a 991 C2 if you start off with the same price paid. But I think the delta will be small enough that you should get whichever car you prefer.

Closest example I can think of: When the 2004 986 SE550 came out I was in love. Hadn't had a Boxster yet, but I was an old-school roadster kinda guy and the concept of the Box S was alluring to me. When they tarted it up with all the options you could reasonably want, including a slightly more powerful motor, exclusive wheels, an exclusive color at the time (GT Silver) and an exclusive interior (Cocoa), I was sold. In concept it was very similar to today's GTS line.

So a comparison of "like priced models" would be unfair to our situation, because mine was a 63k MSRP Boxster; that money in 2004 would have gotten me a nice 96 993 C4S. . But let's keep it more apples to apples and say I had been able to buy a 2004 Boxster 3.2 or a 2000 911 3.4 for equal money. In fact, they weren't far off. I enjoyed my Boxster enough to keep it for 8 years, 45,000 miles, even while adding other Porsches. When I sold it in 2012 it had no stories and was in very good driver condition. I got 21,000 for it with no difficulty. At that point, a 2000 911 was also out of favor (and may always be, for that matter) and it would have brought 25-26,000 in similar condition.

So I would say: 981GTS value is going to go down on a similar ramp as 981 S, maybe slightly less steep. 991.1 C2 will continue down on the ramp all late-model waterpumpers have been subject to. GTS will wind up between 981S and 991.1, closer to 981S.

So buy what you like to drive!
NoGaBiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 08:41 AM   #3
tstafford
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
tstafford's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Nashville
Posts: 1,403
Default

I wouldn't be overly concerned about trying to predict the depreciation. They'll all depreciate. The only way to combat that is to enjoy the car while you own it.

Unless you're tracking the car the performance difference seems negligible to me. Neither car is a rocket off the line and both are some of the best handling cars in the world. Super enjoyable in the twisties. At reasonable street speeds I can't really tell all the much difference b/w rear and mid-engine. On the track - different story.

It's a trade off b/w all the goodies and the 911-ness. I'm 46 and ten years ago I would have said get the 911 every day. Now I'm a little thicker, a little less patient, etc. and the comfort stuff has increased in value to me.

My advice - if you've never owned a 911 I'd buy that. It's a bucket list item for most anyone who is writing that long a post on RL! If you've already had the 911 experience I'd lean toward the Cayman because it will be a very enjoyable DD with all the fun stuff it comes with.
tstafford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 09:08 AM   #4
K-A
User
Thread Starter
 
K-A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 355
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoGaBiker View Post
As to value...

"Past performance is no gaurantee of future results" and all that, but one set of historical metrics is "Base 911 vs. Top-O-The-Line Any Other Porsche." 72 911T vs '72 914-6. 89 Carrera 3.2 vs. 89 944 Turbo S. 95 993 C2 vs 95 928 GTS. 2004 996C2 vs 2004 986 SE550.

In every case I can think of (possible exception of 65 911 vs 63 356 2000GS/GT), the 911 eviscerates the other Porsche in value.

And I say that as a man who just traded a 136k MSRP 911 for a 103k MSRP GT4 + $7000. (Caveat: my 911 was a year older and had 12000 miles vs 4500 on the GT4. But still...)

Whether in the long run the GT4 will wear the Motorsports Dept.'s special Magic Pixie Dust and hold its value better than contemporary 911s is a crap shoot. History has only the example of the 924 Carrera GTS and GTR, and they bring a healthy dollar, even compared to '70s 911s. But they were made in quantities of, iirc, 17 GTRs and such. GT4 was 1200 in North America, iirc.

Okay, you say, the GT4 is already a better short-term investment, and has a shot at being a better mid- and long-term play than a base 991, or any other Carrera for that matter. But what about a regular assembly line 981, even a GTS? How will it do over time?

I think it will do worse than a 991 C2 if you start off with the same price paid. But I think the delta will be small enough that you should get whichever car you prefer.

Closest example I can think of: When the 2004 986 SE550 came out I was in love. Hadn't had a Boxster yet, but I was an old-school roadster kinda guy and the concept of the Box S was alluring to me. When they tarted it up with all the options you could reasonably want, including a slightly more powerful motor, exclusive wheels, an exclusive color at the time (GT Silver) and an exclusive interior (Cocoa), I was sold. In concept it was very similar to today's GTS line.

So a comparison of "like priced models" would be unfair to our situation, because mine was a 63k MSRP Boxster; that money in 2004 would have gotten me a nice 96 993 C4S. . But let's keep it more apples to apples and say I had been able to buy a 2004 Boxster 3.2 or a 2000 911 3.4 for equal money. In fact, they weren't far off. I enjoyed my Boxster enough to keep it for 8 years, 45,000 miles, even while adding other Porsches. When I sold it in 2012 it had no stories and was in very good driver condition. I got 21,000 for it with no difficulty. At that point, a 2000 911 was also out of favor (and may always be, for that matter) and it would have brought 25-26,000 in similar condition.

So I would say: 981GTS value is going to go down on a similar ramp as 981 S, maybe slightly less steep. 991.1 C2 will continue down on the ramp all late-model waterpumpers have been subject to. GTS will wind up between 981S and 991.1, closer to 981S.

So buy what you like to drive!
Great stuff, thanks! Maybe it's just me being nuts, but I feel like the 981 generation really brought the Cayman/Boxster "up" a notch in terms of proving their worth. Maybe, just maybe it will allow them to be the first icons within a line of future iteration icons. But who knows. The swap to 4 cylinders and the inevitable swap into an EV world can make previous rules inapplicable. I still do think the "last of the N/A" cars will have some sort of "floor" to them, but perhaps the Cayman's will see more tangible benefits of being the "last of the flat 6."

But as you say, the difference will likely be negligible enough to not be a factor in my decision. I want the 911. In fact, I need the 911 (literally as the headroom aspect is nearly a must). The Cayman GTS is just exactly how I want it, out of the box. So it's a bit frustrating. I'm patiently awaiting the "just right" 991.1 to pop up, but I guess the biggest bummer is learning that the 992 will be dropping in about a year. I hate getting a car just before a new body. But on the other hand, this is a 911, which is always a 911, and plays by its own rules when it comes to the aging process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstafford View Post
I wouldn't be overly concerned about trying to predict the depreciation. They'll all depreciate. The only way to combat that is to enjoy the car while you own it.

Unless you're tracking the car the performance difference seems negligible to me. Neither car is a rocket off the line and both are some of the best handling cars in the world. Super enjoyable in the twisties. At reasonable street speeds I can't really tell all the much difference b/w rear and mid-engine. On the track - different story.

It's a trade off b/w all the goodies and the 911-ness. I'm 46 and ten years ago I would have said get the 911 every day. Now I'm a little thicker, a little less patient, etc. and the comfort stuff has increased in value to me.

My advice - if you've never owned a 911 I'd buy that. It's a bucket list item for most anyone who is writing that long a post on RL! If you've already had the 911 experience I'd lean toward the Cayman because it will be a very enjoyable DD with all the fun stuff it comes with.
Haha, you're spot on. A 911 is my dream car for sure, since childhood. The Cayman would be the more convenient option (out of the box, ready to go, fit to my tastes) yet the 991 is the more literally "fit" option to my build and my tastes. I'm just gonna have to work, and maybe wait harder for the right one.

I will say, what the Cayman GTS lacks in historic "dream car" panache compared to the 911, it makes up in how absolutely stunning and fun it is. I would take either of these cars more than happily. But the 911 is definitely what I'm truly looking for.

As for the depreciation factor. You're absolutely right as well. But, I guess in a perfect world, I'd love to select a car that won't lose as much money when I sell it, considering how close I like both cars.
K-A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 09:33 AM   #5
R_Rated
Super User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,463
Default

You're looking at the wrong cars for investment grade purchasing.

Do you want an Icon or a Gokart? (911 vs 981) This pretty much sums it up.
R_Rated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 11:53 AM   #6
RichAA
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
RichAA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 253
Default

I'm a big fan of the simpler, lighter, less-optioned Carrera. It's a great driver's car.
RichAA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 12:12 PM   #7
K-A
User
Thread Starter
 
K-A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 355
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by R_Rated View Post
You're looking at the wrong cars for investment grade purchasing.

Do you want an Icon or a Gokart? (911 vs 981) This pretty much sums it up.
Definitely not for an investment, especially since I tend to jump around cars. I would ideally like it to lose as little as possible while I drive it (who wouldn't). I do, however wager that a 911 or C GTS should fare better than just about any other newer premium car going for around $70K though. I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but at the very least these cars will find some sort of floor (as opposed to say, 4 doors which are basically in a race to the inevitable $20K region).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichAA View Post
I'm a big fan of the simpler, lighter, less-optioned Carrera. It's a great driver's car.
I agree, I like it light and simple. Someone is selling a '13 manual Carrera with no sunroof, apparently pristine (though he put a front license plate on it, which in my book practically accounts for damage on the front bumper), low mileage, etc. (in the listing it also states that he was a Porsche factory worker). But imo he's asking a ridiculous amount for what the car technically should be priced at, especially out of warranty and all.
K-A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 12:15 PM   #8
R_Rated
Super User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,463
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Definitely not for an investment, especially since I tend to jump around cars. I would ideally like it to lose as little as possible while I drive it (who wouldn't). I do, however wager that a 911 or C GTS should fare better than just about any other modern premium car going for around $70K though. I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but at the very least these cars will find some sort of floor (as opposed to say, 4 doors which are basically in a race to the inevitable $20K region).
I've had my 911 C2S for 17 months now and could easily sell for what I paid for it. The 3.8 engine helps as does the low mileage. Don't think this price momentum will hold but who knows. Cayman's continue to drop.

911/GTS seem to hold very strong but I haven't looked at Cayman GTS for comparisons.
R_Rated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 12:21 PM   #9
K-A
User
Thread Starter
 
K-A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 355
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by R_Rated View Post
I've had my 911 C2S for 17 months now and could easily sell for what I paid for it. The 3.8 engine helps as does the low mileage. Don't think this price momentum will hold but who knows. Cayman's continue to drop.

911/GTS seem to hold very strong but I haven't looked at Cayman GTS for comparisons.
That's a good point. The "S" will probably ride the N/A novelty wave and hold steady in the future. It'll waver once the 992 comes out I'm sure (though if that car is a hybrid, it might not) but imo it'll still hold solid enough, and maybe even bounce back a bit (again, depending on 992 reception amongst other things). The Base I'm less sure of, but who knows. Makes me wonder if the S is worth the extra cost, but it's going for considerably more, and I'm already stretching the budget I'm choosing to keep at.
K-A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 12:27 PM   #10
R_Rated
Super User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,463
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
That's a good point. The "S" will probably ride the N/A novelty wave and hold steady in the future. It'll waver once the 992 comes out I'm sure (though if that car is a hybrid, it might not) but imo it'll still hold solid enough, and maybe even bounce back a bit (again, depending on 992 reception amongst other things). The Base I'm less sure of, but who knows. Makes me wonder if the S is worth the extra cost, but it's going for considerably more, and I'm already stretching the budget I'm choosing to keep at.
Remember that the 991.1 Base has more power and less weight as well as better suspension and chassis than many previous Carrera S's that were hailed as nirvana. A Base 991.1 is not underpowered but you do have to work for it more so than a similar year S or a newer turbo. That having to work for it could subjectively make it a better car for some and the not having to think about it in a 991.2 for example could make the 991.2 a better daily driver.

Opinions are like buttholes. Everyone has one and most stink.

The ONLY way to settle this for yourself is to drive a few considerations back to back and see where you get the strongest emotional connection. Think speed dating.
R_Rated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 12:36 PM   #11
K-A
User
Thread Starter
 
K-A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 355
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by R_Rated View Post
Remember that the 991.1 Base has more power and less weight as well as better suspension and chassis than many previous Carrera S's that were hailed as nirvana. A Base 991.1 is not underpowered but you do have to work for it more so than a similar year S or a newer turbo. That having to work for it could subjectively make it a better car for some and the not having to think about it in a 991.2 for example could make the 991.2 a better daily driver.

Opinions are like buttholes. Everyone has one and most stink.

The ONLY way to settle this for yourself is to drive a few considerations back to back and see where you get the strongest emotional connection. Think speed dating.
True. I need to drive a base car again. And that's a good point also about the 991.1 Base vs previous S's. I was recently thinking that myself. I've heard "reviewers" state that the power difference between the 991.1 Base and S isn't so noticeable around town. Is this true? I do drive my cars somewhat spiritedly in appropriate backroads, so wondering if I'd notice such a significant difference there as well.

I might be crazy or need to take a good listen again, but I feel like whenever I hear the 3.4L with PSE (namely on the Cayman GTS as there are many videos showcasing just that), it screams nicer than the 3.8L with PSE. Curious if that's ever been a consensus.
K-A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 12:41 PM   #12
R_Rated
Super User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,463
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-A View Post
True. I need to drive a base car again. And that's a good point also about the 991.1 Base vs previous S's. I was recently thinking that myself. I've heard "reviewers" state that the power difference between the 991.1 Base and S isn't so noticeable around town. Is this true? I do drive my cars somewhat spiritedly in appropriate backroads, so wondering if I'd notice such a significant difference there as well.

I might be crazy or need to take a good listen again, but I feel like whenever I hear the 3.4L with PSE (namely on the Cayman GTS as there are many videos showcasing just that), it screams nicer than the 3.8L with PSE. Curious if that's ever been a consensus.
Many swear by the 3.4's - In this new age of base tt's, this 3.4 loving crown has become quiet but there is something to be said by them. Also - lay people don't know the difference between any 911... across generations so nobody will know if it's an ego thing.

One of the longest standing PCA members in my region (is also a DE instructor) always testifies that the base/manual/no option 911 is the one to get. Me - I like my medium optioned S perfectly enough that I didn't trade for a 991.2 if that says anything.
R_Rated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 12:49 PM   #13
saeyedoc
User
 
saeyedoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 283
Default

Personally I think buying a CPO or other used 991.1, you can get great deals on highly optioned cars because the options don't bring much value in the used car market. My '13 C2S was 40% off MSRP when I bought it in October. I don't think the two tone leather adds much weight, but it sure looks good.
saeyedoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 01:26 PM   #14
Archimedes
Super User
 
Archimedes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 5,349
Default

None of the Caymans built to date will ever be 'classics' in the Porsche world over the long term, especially the non-GT4/Spyders, so I would exclude that from your thought process. Other than that, buy what you want to drive. They're both likely to depreciate like a falling rock.
Archimedes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 01:33 PM   #15
rai
User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 97
Default

Regarding headroom that is something to consider. Perhaps you could swap to an aftermarket seat to get better headroom.

I owned a S2000 didn't want to sell but the room (leg room) for me made me sell it my leg was developing a numb spot because of the way the center tunnel pressed into my leg. Had I know or thought of it, I could have got an aftermarket seat to fix the problem.

I'm just saying don't buy a car you don't fit in well or you may not like it after time, but also if you could fix the room with a seat swap that is also something to consider.
rai is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
991.1C2 vs Boxster GTS. Pro's/cons? K-A 987 - 981 718 Forum 11 06-25-2017 09:05 PM
I'm Here To End The .1 vs. .2 Arguments Once And For All... NoGaBiker 991 132 03-11-2017 06:40 PM
981 Cayman S to 991.2 Base? rx7owner 991 10 10-27-2016 09:11 PM
981 GTS and 991.2 S randr 991 23 08-21-2016 10:45 AM
Buying decision help .1 or .2 (or GT3 - hehe)? Dalema 991 6 09-08-2015 12:51 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -3. The time now is 03:48 PM.


Copyright ę 1998 - 2017 Rennlist.com
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: