008

I'll throw this out there: there are AAA rated companies where the language would certainly be interpreted to include DEs and folks probably don't want to advertise it for personal reasons but a thorough shopper would find them. As above though, many cover the incidents quietly without much fight as it's better for them statistically than to argue it legally.

Holli82

35 year member (6 digits)

fast1

I suppose that my experience with Insurance companies is different than yours, since it seems like the companies I deal with contest everything. I'm not certain what you mean by " language would certainly be interpreted to include DEs." It's either excluded or isn't. I've checked with all the major companies, and they all have the exclusion.

As others have posted either get track Insurance if your risk tolerance is low or self insure and hope for the best. If my risk tolerance were low, I certainly wouldn't just hope that my Insurance company covered DE events.

008

Well frankly, you haven't read all AAA policies then. There are some who still have the "timed" requirement for exclusion.

I've been tracking this for about 15 years and have changed carriers many times because of the revisions. In my daily life I often deal with multi-million dollar claims and spend a huge amount of time reading policy and contract language.

I have no interest in getting into an argument on the subject, I'm simply suggesting, if this is of a concern to you; continue your due diligence.

Further, as stated above, I know of a few, first account issues with positive outcomes, regardless of policy language. I'm not advocating anyone take that risk however, just adding anecdotal evidence I know is accurate.

I also know exactly what my current policy covers, including all supplements that are annually updated; I'm not relying on what my "broker" may, or may not have said, but I I'm comfortable fully insuring my position in any event.

I've been racing or tracking for about 23 years and have closely followed the development of the underwriters during that time, including when I insured race cars for competitive events. YMMV and I have no intention of misguiding folks. Do your own due diligence and proceed with your own level of comfort.

Archimedes

Why not just post a few company names up here instead of suggesting we call every AAA company out there? If it's truly in the letter of the policy, posting it up isn't going to let any big secret out of the bag or cause you any loss. Hard to believe you when you don't disclose the name of the company.

I've called the five largest auto insurers in the U.S. and they all told me it was specifically excluded, timed or not. And others on here have said USAA is the same. So if there are some that cover it, just post their names.

Nin Din Din

Not trying to enter a discordant note into the conversation when I ask to please cite the specific language in your auto policy you feel covers you (during "track" events) for:
-physical damage
-medical payments coverage
-liability coverage
-coverage for any hold harmless or indemnity agreement you are required to sign.

It would be interesting see to just how clearly the policy language is written. I would also appreciate your comments on whether or not you have found an excess policy that insures for the above (in the same "track"context).

Thanks.

008

It's a state by state issue in many cases. What your policy says in CA may very well be different that what mine says in TX. That's how State Farm was when I moved from FL. The new policy had the exclusion. It certainly won't be one of the five largest, you just need a carrier you're comfortable can cover your loss as well as a reasonable amount of their other insureds, hence shopping by the ratings. Doesn't have to be AAA really but it may make you sleep better for your insurance generally. One example in TX that didn't exclude HPDEs when I had them was Liberty Mutual.

008

The language is nearly identical to what was cited above, it just doesn't have the exclusion for "driver training" so the operative language remains the "timed" event. It's the exclusions that are the issue, the rest of the policy lays out what is covered including much of the above.

I have not found a company that offers a rider for hpde or track specific coverage, though I imagine some are starting to look at it. My umbrella policy however has no such exclusion either. There was a time where that policy excluded things like sky diving, scuba diving and specific breeds of dogs but no more.

bpu699

Ok, I must really be asking this question wrong as I am kind of shocked folks aren't commenting on this...

Your biggest financial risk at a HPDE is probably hitting another car/ or potentially hurting someone... right?

That's said, do we as participants, or don't we, have coverage for this via the PCA????

The website clearly mentions a 10 mm$ policy that COVERS DRIVERS AND PARTICIPANTS and is a liability coverage...

So, if I am listed as an insured in the policy language, and I get sued by another driver and they win, wouldn't the policy cover that?

People are on here nit picking which insurer may or may not covers DE... yet PCA and SCCA advertises that there is a 10mm$ policy and we are "covered."

Shouldn't this be the main point of recourse and protection.

Obviously this policy is primarily to cover the PCA. But it clearly states that WE AS DRIVERS are also covered for liability!!!

Any lawyers care to comment on what that means?

jimbo1111

Not a Lawyer but I can tell you for certain that If your killed/injured or injure/kill a person on track. The wavier isn't going to protect you or the other families from a law suit. There are many variables involved. In the case of you getting injured or killed or you injuring or killing someone. Your family/ other families will look for compensation.

There are many questions that need to be answered. Will this affect your life insurance coverage? Probably because of risky behavior. Most LI policies have clauses that limit you to non risky behavior. So your family or other families will sue everybody involved. The waiver doesn't take into account where your family will be left in the incident of your death or incapacity to work and provide. Your family didn't sign a wavier so they can still sue. States have different laws. Since its not judged on a federal level. The laws in your state and others will vary greatly. There is a big gray area that will most likely end up in court to hash out all unforeseen circumstances. Its not so cut and dry as signing a waiver. If that was the case than why would the track and event coordinators need insurance?

bpu699

I get all of that... that's why I asked what the PCA 10mm$ liability coverage "covers."

The organizations have this coverage for a reason. It participants were often sued, and lost, and were bankrupted, then no one in their right mind would accept the risk.

I would think, that based on the policy language in the PCA policy, if another drivers family sued a driver for liability, the PCA policy would/should/ought to cover it and pay for the lawyers. Isnt that the point of a liability policy? And the policy CLEARLY states we are "covered." Thoughts? Wishful thinking?


You bring up an interesting point...

We as drivers sign waivers saying we wont sue, and indemnifying the organization/track/etc.

Are you saying family CAN sue? Would the indemnification apply to them also (ie. If they lose, needs to pay the other sides legal costs)?

bpu699

Here is the description of the policy, from the PCA website:

Description:
This general liability insurance coverage is intended to protect PCA and its chartered regions and their members, event officials/instructors, drivers, crews, and other event participants, as well as event site landowners/managers/lessors and event racing vehicle owners and sponsors, and event sponsors from bodily injury, property damage, personal injury or advertising claims arising out of a covered incident at a PCA moving car or non-moving car (meetings, concours, etc.) event.
Type of Coverage: Limits:
Bodily Injury Liability, Property Damage $10,000,000
Liability, Participant Legal Liability, Per event
Contractual Liability, Products Liability,
Personal Injury and Advertising Liability,
Host Liquor Liability; Mobile Equipment Liability
Medical Professional Liability (Excess) $1,000,000
Per event
Event Officials’ Errors and Omissions
Coverage regarding rules enforcement $ 100,000
Per event
Exclusions:
Exclusions include, but are not limited to the following:
Moving car events where no effective system is in effect to collect Release and Waiver forms or where members of the general public are permitted to enter restricted areas without signing Release and Waiver forms, as well as concerts, amusement rides, thrill shows, etc.


I am not a lawyer. But that CLEARLY SAYS that we have 10mm$ in liability protection in case we, as drivers, get sued...

If I am wrong, please explain it to me....

Archimedes

I don't believe this clause would be a state by state issue at all. If a Company denies coverage for something, they're going to put it in every policy nationwide unless State law precludes it, and there's no way state insurance regs would require them to provide track coverage.

Also, quoting past history about Liberty Mutual is irrelevant, as most companies have made these changes in recent years, likely due to a big increase in claims as the popularity of track days has exploded over the last 15 years. I'd still challenge anyone on here to provide the name of a single reputable insurance company that provides coverage for track days under their standard auto policy. If there is one, I'll be calling them today for a quote.

Archimedes

Those waivers are actually fairly bullet proof. Anyone can sue, but it's extremely difficult to get around those waivers. They have been tested many times and held up over and over. If they didn't, the track day business would have disintegrated long ago. The Courts have repeatedly concluded that participants that willingly accept the risk are responsible for the consequences. The insurance track day providers carry is to cover legal fees and **** you money, and because it's often required by the venue to avoid third party liability.

And life insurance? Have you read your policy? There's no exclusion for personal activities like this.

bpu699

...I have seen life policies that exclude racing/parachuting/EAA flight...

... I have seen health insurance policies that do this too... There was a prior thread where someone posted that obamacare doesn't allow high risk activities to be excluded... true or not, dunno