HOT FOR SALE: Pick of the Week 991
05-05-2017, 04:54 PM
Also, does that make it about the same height as the X73 sport suspension?
Thanks.
05-05-2017, 05:50 PM
Race Director
Thread Starter
Attachment 1162262
Here's my take on the pre-owned 991.1 market and strong values the last 12-16 months.
There is no ONE single explanation for it, but more a combination of a few factors. I'll go order them in no specific order or weight placed on them.
Fact number one: Demand has to be greater than supply for rising prices.
This is probably the first time I can think of that a .1 will go down as more desirable than a .2 generational version.
From my observations there have been few .1 owners trading into a .2. 991.1 owners are staying put. They don't see a reason to move into anything else. There is nothing else at these price points that even come close. Trade into a .2?? Why? No clear benefit and pay more for less? Less as far as the the desirability of the NA experience for many. There clearly is a love for it. No debate here, just a clear preference for many owners.
991.2 sales have been flat and slightly lower coming from the 991.1. Clearly says something. You'd expect a bump with a refresh. A lot of new and "first time" 911 owners fall into this group along with habitual lease buyers. With great economic times and disposable income, you'd expect the 991.2 to be doing better.
Porsche has tightened up sports cars allocations to not flood the market and support higher resale numbers. Higher resale numbers help support new high MSRP sales. Porsche doesn't like discounting either. They learned a lesson with overproducing Turbo S's, Panameras, etc. which we're seeing big discounts new just to move them. Those days are done. This will help 991.1 values as well.
The 718 going 4cy and turbo has been a HUGE sales challenge. Off to a very rough start. I'd say very concerning and a mistake on their part. Way too expensive for a 4 banger and many other options new and pre-owned in that price segment. The 991.1 looks pretty attractive to potential buyers here doesn't it??
Great economic times have also surged many buyers into the $80-$100K market moving up from Audi, BMW, etc. These guys aren't buyers in the $120K-$135K+++ 991.2 range. Getting a 991.1 in great pre-owned shape at a $30K-$50K discount is very attractive isn't it?? These new guys come into Rennlist daily.
So there you have it. Few guys getting out of 991.1's, and a growing group of 991.1 potential buyers and lurkers coming into the market at a higher rate than those getting out causes lower inventory and one that turns over quickly at higher prices.
Then we have a resource like Hot for Sale. As much good as we do, I believe it's brought great attention and a venue for the 991.1's. You can clearly get educated and see the great appeal for what you're getting at these prices. With well over 1,000,000 views in just over 2 years, that's a lot of contributors and lurkers. Like 2K hits a day for a 991.1 S/4S/GTS/Targa market with around 600 cars currently for sale. That's an estimate based on my searches. This is not including base model Carreras. It's a great advertising and promotional tool for the market. More visibility and desirability. Does someone like Porsche North America like attention being made to the "deals" and "deprecation" made here?? Absolutely not. Do they like hearing prices and stable and higher than a year ago? You bet.
Well, that's my take. Not everyone will agree with me of course. All these thoughts have been going through my head. Hopefully I presented them well. Was never a thesis kinda guy. Like I said, more like all the right conditions for a perfect storm.
What happens going forward?? Can't say for sure. My predictions.......
Deprecation will slow down for sure. Have values bottomed out?? No. We're just in a unique time here. The gap between the 15's, 16's, and GTS's will get closer to the 2012.5-2014's. The GTS's will always be above the pack. I think the following for the last naturally aspirated Carrera will always be strong. The 991.2's will be orphans wedged between the 991.1 and 992. Many 991.1 guys will be tempted by the GT cars. I think there will be NA options there well into the next 992 generation.
Enjoy your cars guys, and for those searching don't give up. Your car is out there. Might take a little longer to find than a year ago!
Attachment 1162264Attachment 1162265
Here's my take on the pre-owned 991.1 market and strong values the last 12-16 months.
There is no ONE single explanation for it, but more a combination of a few factors. I'll go order them in no specific order or weight placed on them.
Fact number one: Demand has to be greater than supply for rising prices.
This is probably the first time I can think of that a .1 will go down as more desirable than a .2 generational version.
From my observations there have been few .1 owners trading into a .2. 991.1 owners are staying put. They don't see a reason to move into anything else. There is nothing else at these price points that even come close. Trade into a .2?? Why? No clear benefit and pay more for less? Less as far as the the desirability of the NA experience for many. There clearly is a love for it. No debate here, just a clear preference for many owners.
991.2 sales have been flat and slightly lower coming from the 991.1. Clearly says something. You'd expect a bump with a refresh. A lot of new and "first time" 911 owners fall into this group along with habitual lease buyers. With great economic times and disposable income, you'd expect the 991.2 to be doing better.
Porsche has tightened up sports cars allocations to not flood the market and support higher resale numbers. Higher resale numbers help support new high MSRP sales. Porsche doesn't like discounting either. They learned a lesson with overproducing Turbo S's, Panameras, etc. which we're seeing big discounts new just to move them. Those days are done. This will help 991.1 values as well.
The 718 going 4cy and turbo has been a HUGE sales challenge. Off to a very rough start. I'd say very concerning and a mistake on their part. Way too expensive for a 4 banger and many other options new and pre-owned in that price segment. The 991.1 looks pretty attractive to potential buyers here doesn't it??
Great economic times have also surged many buyers into the $80-$100K market moving up from Audi, BMW, etc. These guys aren't buyers in the $120K-$135K+++ 991.2 range. Getting a 991.1 in great pre-owned shape at a $30K-$50K discount is very attractive isn't it?? These new guys come into Rennlist daily.
So there you have it. Few guys getting out of 991.1's, and a growing group of 991.1 potential buyers and lurkers coming into the market at a higher rate than those getting out causes lower inventory and one that turns over quickly at higher prices.
Then we have a resource like Hot for Sale. As much good as we do, I believe it's brought great attention and a venue for the 991.1's. You can clearly get educated and see the great appeal for what you're getting at these prices. With well over 1,000,000 views in just over 2 years, that's a lot of contributors and lurkers. Like 2K hits a day for a 991.1 S/4S/GTS/Targa market with around 600 cars currently for sale. That's an estimate based on my searches. This is not including base model Carreras. It's a great advertising and promotional tool for the market. More visibility and desirability. Does someone like Porsche North America like attention being made to the "deals" and "deprecation" made here?? Absolutely not. Do they like hearing prices and stable and higher than a year ago? You bet.
Well, that's my take. Not everyone will agree with me of course. All these thoughts have been going through my head. Hopefully I presented them well. Was never a thesis kinda guy. Like I said, more like all the right conditions for a perfect storm.
What happens going forward?? Can't say for sure. My predictions.......
Deprecation will slow down for sure. Have values bottomed out?? No. We're just in a unique time here. The gap between the 15's, 16's, and GTS's will get closer to the 2012.5-2014's. The GTS's will always be above the pack. I think the following for the last naturally aspirated Carrera will always be strong. The 991.2's will be orphans wedged between the 991.1 and 992. Many 991.1 guys will be tempted by the GT cars. I think there will be NA options there well into the next 992 generation.
Enjoy your cars guys, and for those searching don't give up. Your car is out there. Might take a little longer to find than a year ago!
Attachment 1162264Attachment 1162265
Last edited by STG; 05-05-2017 at 06:09 PM.
05-05-2017, 06:24 PM
Rennlist Member
^^^ nice analysis, specially the 718 argument. I wasn't even thinking of 718 cars. If I went the Cayman way, I would have been looking at pre-owned 981. Four cylinders for a $70k plus car? May as well go Jaguar F type.
05-05-2017, 06:29 PM
Race Director
Thread Starter
05-05-2017, 06:32 PM
Instructor
^^^ I agree with the analysis as well. Also, If you're looking at a 991.2, why not wait a bit as there will be some smoking deals on the lots if they don't move them this summer. I did this with the Macan Turbo. I know it's not the same as a 911 but I picked mine up in late December 2015 as a leftover model for a huge discount off list. We may see the same with .2s in the September/October timeframe. I won't be tempted though. If I pick up anything else, it will be a 987 Spyder or Cayman R. Of course I have to convince the wife that I need the 991 as well. 
05-05-2017, 06:32 PM
Race Car
How difficult is it to navigate with SPASM in the city - driveways, dips, etc? Is it something you constantly have to be cautious about - or wish you had an axle lift - or it is pretty manageable? I've not driven a 991 with SPASM.
Also, does that make it about the same height as the X73 sport suspension?
Thanks.
Also, does that make it about the same height as the X73 sport suspension?
Thanks.
With my SPASM car, I have to leave my driveway at a 45 degree angle and pull out very slowly not to scrape. In nine months of ownership (yikes - have I had it that long already!) and 4,500 miles of driving, I have scraped it exactly one other time than my driveway. I was in a very small town going down a steep hill to a stop sign and it the road did a terrible job of leveling off to the intersection.
So I have thought about the need for a front axle lift (not available on the 991.1 base, S, or GTS BTW) if I ever bought a 991.2 some day. But if it is only my driveway (which I can mitigate by taking at an angle), then it really isn't worth the expense. Plus I can always replace the lip some day (it actually looks fine on my car).
SPASM is a stiffer ride than the PASM, no doubt, but I still find it very comfortable on long trips. I don't even notice the stiffness over PASM anymore but then again I have been driving it for a long time. The lowered ride height is nice and I use the sport chassis settings for autocross (otherwise it is always in normal). I should also state that I had PDCC on both of my cars, too, which may have increased ride comfort over non-PDCC equipped cars.
05-05-2017, 06:45 PM
Race Car
Very good read, STG. The 991.2 is nice and I have no problem with the turbocharged engine or more power (yay, more power! And torque!) but it just isn't that great of an upgrade over the 991.1 to make someone like me suddenly desire it over what I already have.
The telematics and ergonomics aren't that great of a change (except for Apple CarPlay and maybe better maps, a nicer steering wheel and a very slightly larger center console storage area, the interior is identical. No 2017 Panamera interior that the upcoming 992 will probably have. The changes to the front and rear exterior - they are okay but in many ways I prefer the simpler, clean look of the 991.1 over the changes. The HP bump is minimal. The torque increase is nice (and the acceleration gains) but at the sacrifice of the great sound of the NA engine. RWS is a nice option but also not essential for many buyers.
The other thing is that a new 991.2 competes against CPO 991.1 Turbos and Turbo S's, price wise, more than 991.1's. I think I would rather have a CPO Turbo or Turbo S with low miles and far more power than a new 991.2S or GTS...
Plus, the 991.1 engines have been really reliable (the COV issues were present but fixable). With the 997.1 to 997.2, if I am not mistaken, you moved up to a much more reliable engine and the PDK from the Tiptronic? That alone would make the 997.2's a LOT more desirable over a 997.1.
The telematics and ergonomics aren't that great of a change (except for Apple CarPlay and maybe better maps, a nicer steering wheel and a very slightly larger center console storage area, the interior is identical. No 2017 Panamera interior that the upcoming 992 will probably have. The changes to the front and rear exterior - they are okay but in many ways I prefer the simpler, clean look of the 991.1 over the changes. The HP bump is minimal. The torque increase is nice (and the acceleration gains) but at the sacrifice of the great sound of the NA engine. RWS is a nice option but also not essential for many buyers.
The other thing is that a new 991.2 competes against CPO 991.1 Turbos and Turbo S's, price wise, more than 991.1's. I think I would rather have a CPO Turbo or Turbo S with low miles and far more power than a new 991.2S or GTS...
Plus, the 991.1 engines have been really reliable (the COV issues were present but fixable). With the 997.1 to 997.2, if I am not mistaken, you moved up to a much more reliable engine and the PDK from the Tiptronic? That alone would make the 997.2's a LOT more desirable over a 997.1.
05-05-2017, 06:46 PM
Race Car
05-05-2017, 06:52 PM
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Hurricane
Very good read, STG.
Plus, the 991.1 engines have been really reliable (the COV issues were present but fixable). With the 997.1 to 997.2, if I am not mistaken, you moved up to a much more reliable engine and the PDK from the Tiptronic? That alone would make the 997.2's a LOT more desirable over a 997.1.
Plus, the 991.1 engines have been really reliable (the COV issues were present but fixable). With the 997.1 to 997.2, if I am not mistaken, you moved up to a much more reliable engine and the PDK from the Tiptronic? That alone would make the 997.2's a LOT more desirable over a 997.1.
As a side note, to clarify for some. The COV's (change over valves) and just small electronic switches that plug in. Not mechanical in any way.
Your 997.1 to 997.2 example is a good one. A good example of my comment that the 991.1 will be the favorite child of the 991 generation which will be unique as all .2's have been favored on most models.
05-05-2017, 07:07 PM
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by STG
Thanks.
As a side note, to clarify for some. The COV's (change over valves) and just small electronic switches that plug in. Not mechanical in any way.
.
As a side note, to clarify for some. The COV's (change over valves) and just small electronic switches that plug in. Not mechanical in any way.
.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991/8002...-on-991-a.html
05-05-2017, 07:41 PM
I have owned two 991S's - one with PASM and my current one with SPASM. With my PASM car (owned for over two years), it never scraped. Not once.
With my SPASM car, I have to leave my driveway at a 45 degree angle and pull out very slowly not to scrape. In nine months of ownership (yikes - have I had it that long already!) and 4,500 miles of driving, I have scraped it exactly one other time than my driveway. I was in a very small town going down a steep hill to a stop sign and it the road did a terrible job of leveling off to the intersection.
So I have thought about the need for a front axle lift (not available on the 991.1 base, S, or GTS BTW) if I ever bought a 991.2 some day. But if it is only my driveway (which I can mitigate by taking at an angle), then it really isn't worth the expense. Plus I can always replace the lip some day (it actually looks fine on my car).
SPASM is a stiffer ride than the PASM, no doubt, but I still find it very comfortable on long trips. I don't even notice the stiffness over PASM anymore but then again I have been driving it for a long time. The lowered ride height is nice and I use the sport chassis settings for autocross (otherwise it is always in normal). I should also state that I had PDCC on both of my cars, too, which may have increased ride comfort over non-PDCC equipped cars.
With my SPASM car, I have to leave my driveway at a 45 degree angle and pull out very slowly not to scrape. In nine months of ownership (yikes - have I had it that long already!) and 4,500 miles of driving, I have scraped it exactly one other time than my driveway. I was in a very small town going down a steep hill to a stop sign and it the road did a terrible job of leveling off to the intersection.
So I have thought about the need for a front axle lift (not available on the 991.1 base, S, or GTS BTW) if I ever bought a 991.2 some day. But if it is only my driveway (which I can mitigate by taking at an angle), then it really isn't worth the expense. Plus I can always replace the lip some day (it actually looks fine on my car).
SPASM is a stiffer ride than the PASM, no doubt, but I still find it very comfortable on long trips. I don't even notice the stiffness over PASM anymore but then again I have been driving it for a long time. The lowered ride height is nice and I use the sport chassis settings for autocross (otherwise it is always in normal). I should also state that I had PDCC on both of my cars, too, which may have increased ride comfort over non-PDCC equipped cars.
Last edited by dr bob; 05-06-2017 at 12:05 AM. Reason: Fixed a missing quote bracket...
05-05-2017, 08:24 PM
Rennlist Member
05-05-2017, 08:31 PM
Race Director
Thread Starter
Porsche is making cars for China and hoping we get duped into it by slick videos. Little did they know ... The only damn new cars the enthusiasts want are the GT's, and we all know the allocation and mark up drama game there.
05-05-2017, 08:56 PM
Race Director
Thread Starter
Interesting car. No SC though. Bizarre. At their Audi dealer. They also have a Porsche dealer. Less than 6K miles!
Looks like a little brother of Hurricane's car!
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http://www.auditacoma.com/used/Porsc...359da8f2f6.htm
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Looks like a little brother of Hurricane's car!
Attachment 1162315Attachment 1162314Attachment 1162316Attachment 1162320Attachment 1162319Attachment 1162318Attachment 1162321Attachment 1162317
http://www.auditacoma.com/used/Porsc...359da8f2f6.htm
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