Merc AMG GT vs 991
 

I suppose being copied is the best form of flattery...

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...-and-info-news

IMHO there are very few cars out there that can best the 911. I certainly don't think the new Merc will steal much if any market share from Porsche.

Thoughts?

More than a passing nod to the 991! The raised light tunnels at the front and an almost identically proportioned rear (try covering the bonnet up and looking at the silhouette from the A pillar backwards)
It also reminds me of the [dare i say] Chrysler crossfire?
I actually think it looks good and more purposeful than many other merc sports cars... And no doubt it will growl with the best.... But i wont spend 20 years wanting one...

Certainly looks very sharp. We'll have to see the reviews on handling and driving dynamics. Will it be a scalpel like the 911 or just a brute hammer like the C63 that goes like stink but doesn't really handle very well?

Looks like a Viper. I don't like cab-rearward design, in general.

Looks like a stretched BMW Z4.

Butt ugly. Who cares if its a scalpel or a hammer if it looks like a turd?

I hate long hooded cars on the track. Cant tell where the front end is. The 911 is particularly good at pointing its nose

I definitely think the AMG GT will steal some 911 buyers/owners. The F-Type R already has. In the $100K-$130K price range there was limited options for a 2 seater sports cars. Now there's 2. Both are more distinctive looking (for good or bad) and both sound better (virtual consensus). Overall performance and handling the 911 will still win. But for many buyers the distinctive looks and sound will tip the scale.

Yes, I agree; however, it will be an absolute cracker of a car, you can be sure of that.

The big issue will be the car's mass; 991S is around 1400kg and this more than anything will determine how the Mercedes drives (other than in a straight line).

I give you Jaquar's new F-Type which makes much of it's wonderful aluminium construction.....yet tips the scales at over 1600kg (the convertible even more). That car has eaten a lot of pies.......

+1

The 911 will handle better and be a better price point value (as crazy as that sounds), but it's another choice and even if they sell 5,000 cars, it's still going to take numbers away from PAG. However. Repeat however, competition generally does one thing....the future looks bright!!!

From this video at least, seems boring --

Rear view is gorgeous - shows jag how to do it!

The Porsche enthusiast won't look twice at that car. Wait a minute...yes he will....

First Look: "So that's the new Merc sports car?"

Second LooK: "Man, that sure is UGGLIIILEEEEEEEEEE"

very nice lines...i'm not sure how any p-car owner can look at this and say "yuck" seeing as how the rear cab of the vehicle borrows significant design cues from the 911...

I like the looks of the car....but the press release I read says base price is $122K for the GT and $142K for the GT-S. I realize you can run up the options on a C2S or C4S to those levels, but you can also get into a 911 starting at $84K. The Merc will really be competing more at the Turbo level of pricing and I think it will sell about as many units as the SLS did (which wasn't too many.)

For the price, I'm having a very hard time justifying its existence. For a base of $122k and $142k ... we all know that by the time you leave the door of the dealership, you will be pushing $135k-$155k.
For that kind of money, I would take a Targa, GT3 or Turbo ANY day....really any variation of a 911.

The design cues it's taken from the 911 are far too obvious (rear end, rear lights, overall shape, etc).

It's funny ... I guess it's payback for what Porsche did to their SUV and sedan markets. Although to be perfectly fair here, IMHO, I don't believe Porsche provides good value for anything other than their sports cars (911s, Caymans, etc). i.e. Porsche is my toy, but I would consider Merc/BMW, etc for DD. The other way around does not work (for me at least). I couldn't see myself in a monster AMG and calling it my "toy".

Also - that video was horrible. In what world is it acceptable to market a sports car 911 "killer" using a very quite, calm, cruising and boring video!

.....and yet.....from the doors back I think it's lovely.

What I have always liked about the 911 models is their un-fussiness when viewed side-on. An absolute minimum of strakes, intakes, scoops, geegaws and lines (991 is the best yet); probably F-type or GTR are the complete antithesis. The original Audi TT, too, was pretty clean. This Merc's rear is drawing me in with it's smoothness and lack of detail.

hmmmmmmm..not feeling it from the pics. I will have to see it in person.

I think this is a Merc with 991 class. At the low end it is in reach of typical 991 shoppers. Not hard imagining it will be cross shopped and thus it should drive 911 performance up.

i like it but starting around 100... add another 20/30 in options.. and then add up for the 500hp versus the 450hp.. personallu i'd rather get a used SLS for that.

The problem is, there's not a single original styling element on that entire body. It's a melange of Porsche, Jaguar, even some Chrysler/Dodge influence. When you're a century-old company with the history and reputation of Mercedes Benz, people shouldn't have to squint to figure out what car they're looking at.

It may well be a great car under the skin, but it doesn't make a great first impression IMHO.

the front end, esp the lights, seems odd to me, kinda like the SL.
Looks like the car has down...

:rockon:

I was at Laguna Seca for the Historics when the Z4 was released. Porsche was the featured marque that year. Their reaction was exactly as you described! One after the other doing double takes, and you never seen so many rolled eyes and wtf's in your life. Some would come up to me whispering conspiratorially, like did you see the elephant man?

Congratulations Mercedes and AMG, you have moved UGGLIIILEEEEEEE upmarket. Someone, somewhere will bite. Might the same fool have bought a 911? Who cares! Better off without 'em.

Not sure about cross shopping with the 911. It's a fixed roof hardtop. I bet u can't even get a sunroof. I don't know how it can compete with the 911 variants of coupe, cabriolet, and targa.

Agreed.

I understand the AMG GT-S is something like 1580kg.

911 just rocks. It just does. :cool:

I guess it's not surprising that on a 911 forum, the Merc will get no respect. I don't think it will be the pure sports car the 911 is, however it is an alternative. The 911 is like the San Antonio Spurs of sports cars: It's old, but tinkers with things, and continues to impress year after year.
There is no question the Merc will steal 911 buyers. It will not steal many enthusiasts on here or the track junkies, but it will get buyers who maybe want to stand apart from 911s (in LA, there are a lot of 911s), or those who just want the newest thing. Same crowd as the Jag buyers. Others crave power and sound over the other subtleties of the driving experience. My point is let's not get extreme and call it "fugly" and all sorts of other things just because it's not a 911.

It will have a great engine and nice interior with all the bells and whistles that you can't even get in a 911. For most people, it will drive just fine too.

But I don't like how it looks at all! Some angles it looks sleek, but at others, it just doesn't work. SLS + 911 bastard child.

More like the a SLS + Z4 bastard child. And raised by a Viper.

Don't kid yourself this car is going to be competitive price wise with the bigger power 911's. MB usually has a prem pack for 4-5K that loads up the car with all the options. Porsche likes the lower base and then nickels and dimes us to death on options that should be standard on cars of this price. Furthermore it will compete on the track. This car has an aluminum body making it lighter than the SLS, 53 to 47 weight ratio and DCT.

The piece de resistance on this sucker has to be the TT 4.0L V8. Porsche has a great 6 cyl. but we would all trade for a high rev V8.

I for one am anxious to see this car and it could be the replacement for my 911.



PS I must admit to a certain bias towards MB. My 2015 E400 will be my 21st new MB since 1983.

With you all the way.

I have loved my three 911s and will continue to do so; but my brother - not a Porsche lover (nor hater) - took one look at this Merc and said, "I'll get one of those!".

fixed!

Just read the engine specs - 503hp for the S. I recall Audi's 4L V8 putting out 560ish for less money. WTF.

I don't know why, but I just have such a hard time taking Mercedes seriously in the sports car arena. I don't care how much power or audible grunt their cars make, they just look too prissy for me.

Clearly they are trying to fix that here and as others have said, I'm sure that the car will perform nicely and be quite fun to drive ... but is it a timeless ORIGINAL classic like a 911? Never.

I guess another analogy ... take a classic watch, the timeless Rolex Submariner. It's clearly the original. Performs like a champ. And cheesily copied by dozens of other watch manufacturers.

I don't know why some think Mercedes is trying to copy the 911. They are trying to build a sportscar,that's all! For years manufacturers have been using the 911 as a benchmark,but that doesn't mean they were trying to copy its design.
Same argument can be had when the 991 came out and some said that Porsche is copying Aston Martin's rear design. Plain stupid.
You want a 911,get a 911,you want a Mercedes get a Mercedes. Or get both. Or a Jag. Different strokes for different folks.

The thing is that MB itself said that they designed and built this new iteration of the AMG GT with the 911 as both a goal and a target.

It's not just the peanut gallery on the message boards perpetuating this meme ...

the 911 is the standard among sport cars
the 3 series is the standard among (mid size) sports sedans

Again,they've built it with the 911 in mind as a BENCHMARK,which means : " we have to build a sportscar that is practical like a 911,can be used on the track and then drive home comfortably,good brakes,good handling etc etc " .

Lets wait and see in real life.
BUT, with the info we have now, pics and vids, its biggest problem is the looks. The 991 to me is a homogenic design, it's a 911, full stop. The Merc GT looks like a collage of different cars. There is some SLS in there, some 911, some BMW Z4, some Aston Vantage V8, some ...

991s are more expensive than the 997.2s, creating room for six-figure sports cars like this AMG GT, a new car with 0 street or track credentials. this move confirms that mercedes deems the SL--even in AMG (or Black) form--is a serious sports car.

All this benchmark talk reminds me of Jerry Seinfeld's remark back when the Carrera GT was new: "its not the new benchmark. It's the new bench."

This profoundly apt metaphor is the dilemma (not a problem, problems have solutions) confronting anyone trying to compete, or even compare, with the 911. Because, if the 911 is a benchmark, then the bench is built on 50 year old bedrock, with legs reinforced by more race victories than the next 10 cars put together, a bench top polished to the nanometer from relentless refinement, with lighting and optics to put the Hubble to shame, in a studio with air cleaner than Yosemite. From there you look over and can't help but notice the AMG guy, stogie hanging out his mouth, wedging a matchbook under a leg to try and stop his bench wobbling. Oh crap, the 'designer' was 'designing' when the table rocked! No worries, we'll just make that a hole in the side of the car, add a few swoops, it'll be cool.

What a joke.

To you Chuck,but it's not like you're blindly and hopelessly in love with the 911....

Realistically,we're car guys...and this car can have its appeal to a certain category of consumers. Some of them might be 911 owners...so what?! I don't see it as a problem. It'll just push Porsche to continue developing in order to remain the benchmark.

wow, talk about fanboys. I thought I only got this level of fanaticism on the GTR forums. the 911 is a great sports car, but that doesn't preclude other sports cars from being great or even just good. call the AMG GT a "joke" is a joke!

I think it looks terrific.

Overall I think the current crop of modern 100k-ish Euro sports cars (991, Jag, Aston, R8, and this GT) are particularly beautiful. We are in a golden age of performance and design.

A couple of points:

1) The price point of the AMG GT and AMG GT-S has been announced for Germany (in Euro's). And it is priced around the 991 Carrera and Carrera S. It is much cheaper than the 991 GT3/Turbo/TurboS.

2) Having said that, it's claimed acceleration numbers (0-100km/h in 3.8-4.0 s) are definitely faster than the 991 Carrera and Carrera S, and it's claimed Ring laptime (7:36) is in the ball park of the 991 Carrera S, but slower than the 991 GT3.

So regardless of the subjective aspect of it's looks or how it "drives", the 991 is going to be challenged here from a performance point of view. The more hard core Black Series version will take the fight straight to the GT3/Turbo/Turbo S.

Obviously, Porsche will counter this with the facelifted 991.2 (or 992?). I'm sure the newer 911's will be faster than before, so it will be interesting times in the next 2-3 years. And remember, McLaren will be coming out with a 911 competitor too.......

Good points Valkyrie. I think Porsche will go to turbo engines on 992 to keep up. They knew this car was coming along with the others. They know they are on top now but if they don't make some changes othes will begin to take significant market share from them. I'm not that all interested in the Merc as I don't like the looks but I do think it will keep Porsche on their toes. And thats a good thing.

Whilst liking the flowing exterior from most angles and awesome powerplant of the AMG GT: To my eyes it's interior comes across as bloated and fussy, not a place I'd pay for to be in. Material use looks the part though.

The unfussy look and feel of a 991 cockpit, now that is a place I could live in. ;)

http://www.gtspirit.com/wp-content/u...des-AMG-GT.jpg

http://www.motoringresearch.com/wp-c...nterior-03.jpg

That thing in the center console- the world's first cigar aficionado size ash tray? Trash compactor? Air hockey table? (I notice the air hockey puck holder nearby is why I ask.)

Does make me wonder why they bother copying Porsche door handles while otherwise going all Buck Rogers.

Haha, lol!

Also: The center mouse shaped thing seems to be humping the puck below it. Design, fascinating isn't it. :D

This controller is from the S Class and they're cascading it through a lot of their models including the C Class. The rotary dial allows you to go through the menu, the "handle" on top has a few quick main controls so you don't have to through the dial for common selections.

I'm not a fan of the huge iPod screen, it's a distraction and is showing up everywhere except for Porsche, which again speaks to design language (ie where's the driver's focus- straight ahead- tach center).

That interior is just strange. Overlapping control sticks and an iPad wedged into the dash above 4 vents. I'm not sure why there are 4 vents in the centre? Did they just need to fill space under the iPad? I also can't figure out why the front of the headliner terminates in a giant hump at the windshield. It looks really odd to me and I'm wondering what that hump is hiding. It makes the windshield look very narrow from a horizontal perspective. Perhaps they want the drivers view of the world to be in a 16:9 perspective.

Luckily I've sworn completely off of MB cars due to past experiences so this would never be a temptation for me personally.

Mercedes makes the best looking sedans in the world right now, and their SUV's are competitive too (except that fugly square one). But their "sports cars" are the laughing stock of the design world right now IMO. Right up (down) there with the Nissan Cube, Fiat and the earlier Scions.

I'm also seeing a little Saturn Sky...

without the roof, of course

Agreed. As I said earlier, no matter how great the performance is, I just can't take Mercs seriously in the sports car arena. Otherwise, they are great.

I'm guessing that giant ashtray thing is a lid for the cupholders? I hope it slides forward into the console rather than lifting up on a hinge, because that would mean you could use the HVAC controls or the cupholders but not both at the same time.

I'd say this is easily the ugliest interior I've seen since Pontiac shuffled off its corporate coil.

Well I got to hand it to you, "cascading it through all their models" sounds a hell of a lot better than "the 'you know what' runs downhill."

The real advance will be when designers start eliminating things we really don't need, like shift levers and, yes, tachometers. Rev limiters make a tach redundant. Porsche doesn't even put one in the 991 Cup. Only thing you really need front and center on a street car anyway is something telling you when and how much to slow down to stay out of jail.

I don't care for the looks....

I'm a 911 fanboy. I admit it and I prefer my 911 over the Merc BUT that Merc is really nice. They will sell well. It's a different kind of car but most drivers do not track their car. As a fast DD that is built well I see no reason not to like it. Personally, I like the looks although not as much as a 911.

The MBs have always appealed to another type of crowd, just as Jags do.

Slick Video of AMG GT at COTA

"Handcrafted by racers?" That's how they want to play it? Really?

I know, it's crazy, isn't it?

http://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/

Mercedes and Motorsport?.......they are not lacking: F1, DTM, and FIA GT3 class racing (SLS GT3).

"Handcrafted for your midlifecrisis" just doesn't have that ring to it I guess. :D

my vote is for brute hammer - seems like all AMG know how to do.

+1 its just plain fugly

+1 I was just going to comment that the interior looked like something out of Battlestar Galactica ...

Late to this thread, but I did discover (and confirm) that the massive center console ashtray cover conceals two full sized cup holders.

The interior of the AMG GT is a bit fussy, but at the same time, a lot more interesting than that of the 911. And I'm sure a lot of the details will be standard, whereas it would cost and arm / leg to option a 911 with full-leather / carbon / deviated stitching / two tone interior.

Porsche interiors tend to be pretty business-like and boring to my eyes, especially with minimal options.

I guess I'm one of the few that think this car looks ugly, and no I'm not a Porsche fanboy. I love my 911 but appreciate other brands' nice car just as much. This one just looks weird to me. I really agree that Mercedes has gone crazy with their sport car designs. Their sedans looks great. The new S class coupe looks amazing too. But the new SL is just simply ugly and seems like this AMG GT is following down that same path. It just doesn't look like a Mercedes. I do think the interior looks nice though. It's different. Exterior...terrible.

I would be happy to trade my 911 for a SLS AMG, but not for this car.

While maybe not in that black/red combination, I think the interior of that Mercedes in all black would surpass the similar 991 interior in terms of style/quality. Quite frankly the 991 is the Panamera interior stuffed into a smaller package with 800 different cheap feeling buttons, some of which need to be pressed every time the car is turned on and have the plastic start to look worn in short order. It will likely age hideously as the 996 and to a lesser extent the 997 have.

Exterior wise that Mercedes isn't even close to the 991. The proportions just look off. It's like the new C63 with a stretched hood and 2 doors instead of 4. Not sure why you'd pay 100k+ for this car when you can get a better looking sedan version of it for about half the price.

I predict it will flop next to 911 sales.

+2... I agree with you!

I'm a leg man

Apologies, to each their own, but I couldn't help but LOL. To me, they're at the bottom of their competition in both of those, especially looks and more especially, drive.

I think this AMG is the nicest looking design M-B has released in some time (the only nice M-B I've seen in some time). Though, like most modern M-B's, it's not "quite right" and isn't saying a lot as I feel M-B have been putting out some of the most ugly and flawed designs. A lot of popping-smoke for immediate effect, but even with a much cleaner surface than other modern M-B's, gawky and awkward things like the headlights, bloated rear, etc. and futuristic like what an 80's movie anticipated the future would be like- interior, IMO will not age well.

The biggest issue facing M-B design is an increasing loss of trademark and confident design language. Every M-B seems like they're throwing whatever they can at the wall to see what sticks. The new CL ("S Coupe") and this both look like M-B has mixed their aping of Bangle-era BMW design to now aping Porsche design (blasphemy). But most of all, they're throwing Jag in there now, as well. The entire side and greenhouse of M-B's Coupes lately reek of classic Jag.

To me, this one looks like they wanted to absolutely evoke some 911, i.e basically latch on to the iconic 911 to gain some traction in this space, and then undo all the staunch M-B Coupe virtues of the past, to go after a more British-esque, Jag type look. M-B's designers seem to be furthering what has already become a very uncharacteristic identity crisis that M-B has embarked on, since about 2007.

If you drive the new C Class, although the interior blows its competitors away, it looks and feels/drives more "old man-ish" than any C before it, which shows M-B are still lacking in dynamics behind never mind Porsche, but their actual closest competitors. I feel that this is why they are going stronger with the AMG models to showcase their sporty side, as the regular models seem to go backwards in that sense.

I couldn't agree more. I've said it before and I'll say it again, MB != sport/sport car to me. Just to awkward and prissy ... Just my two cents. I respect that some people enjoy the over the top noise, smoke etc. Just not for me.

Although, just to show you how backwards I can be sometimes, the one MB that most people really hate (boxy g-wagon), I absolutely love.

Hey, to each there own.

Agreed. Another way to put it is, if Kia decided to play in the upmarket luxury sports segment, this body (and interior) is what I'd expect them to come up with. It would make a very handsome Kia indeed.

Depends on your perspective... Beauty is in the eye .... Platitude platitude...

I'm not a mercedes fan (despite enjoying 9 years in an AMG) and would NEVER consider buying it myself... but if this came up in my rear view mirror I'd feel like a legitimate challenge was on...

'Familiar' 911 lines - check
'Glorious sound' - check (almost certainly)
'On my drive' - only if it's a visitor :)

Still feel like the ugly guy that got the beautiful bride every time I get into the 911... 'Nuff said.

I also think that if the new AMG was trying to seriously go after the 911, they'd at least have made it a mid engine (which is what I thought they were doing when I first heard about it).

That super long nose just looks like it'd have to work a lot harder than a 911 to not be inherently clumsy on a track. The 911 isn't a standard proportion car with a standard style engine in a standard area (V8TT, great, but not bespoke and nowhere near as unique, exclusive, iconic and idolized like Porsche's inherently balanced Flat 6) for a reason, and that's what makes it the one-and-only icon that it is, and why it's the only car out there that changing dramatically works against it.

It looks better than the SLS. The huge vents and all the sharp creases on the SLS might be design nods to the original gullwing. However, toning down both on the GT shows off the original silhouette of the gullwing better.

GT looks good to me but I'll always want a 911 for my sports car. For someone else that is shopping for a sports car for $100k+, the Mercedes GT will be a strong alternative. It's a Mercedes. It's new. I'm sure the performance will be close enough to a 911. At $100k+, it will be more exclusive. I can see a lot of wives wanting one especially if the ride is a little smoother. Sadly this car may influence Porsche to make the 911 even softer.

I see a Mercedes AMG GT in my future.

Looks great to me, rumbles nicely. I'm partial because I'm Mercedes AMG man.
Say in 3 years after my current CL550 (lookalike) and next CL63 (6.2) / CL65, all about 65% depreciation but with 4 years and unlimited miles CPO warranty. I depreciated my '05 CL65 about $10K in 3 years and 30K miles. You could do worse rumbling around in comfort.

Yup. Same.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I will be getting an AMG GT S, and then an AMG GT Black Series when it finally comes out (primarily because I have all the other BS's).

The AMG GT S will be a fantastic grand tourer / daily driver for me.

They don't need to make it mid-engine to go after a 911. As you can see, the C7 Corvette is doing just fine dynamically against the 991. Does the Ferrari F12 need to be mid-engine as well? Don't think so.

As far as the long nose is concerned, the engine is well behind the front wheels so it will be far from clumsy. This car is supposed to be dynamically superior to the SLS, which was never described as clumsy. This car won't be as oversteer happy and dangerous at the limit as that car to boot.

Mercedes is completely aware that it won't have the golden icon status that the 911 enjoys- that's not the point here. It is supposed to be a formidable competitor; and I have no reason to believe it won't achieve that goal. Looks great here:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.6sp...2bc99ba90c.jpg

If this - no, scratch that- ANYTHING comes up in your rear view mirror, no challenge is on- you already LOST! :roflmao:

whats the proper comp a 991 or Turbo?

Fair enough, I'm sure they got the dynamics right. IMO the design looks too close to like an SLK or SL (or the increasing number of MB's using that front) at first glance. That's one issue I think MB will keep facing as more cheap cars (and many of them straight up ugly and awkward) come out, all sharing design and parts. It makes it hard to justify spending such money for the upper range models, as they lose their presence to the increasing normalcy of MB's in general. Of course the the AMG SLS and GT, being much more exotic and bespoke in nature separate them from the fray (also offer unique chassis and dynamics that give a fundamental reason to pay up from common Benzes), but IMO still resembles the lesser cars to make justifying such high prices, more difficult.

Mercedes has become a more "bottom to up" brand, while Porsche is still very much a "top to down" one.

Certainly not understated. Looks like the designers were high school boys

I can definitely see what you're saying, but it seems Mercedes is testing the waters to see if they can do what they do overseas over here. As you know, Mercedes has no problem operating taxi cabs over in Europe and still commanding a price premium for its S-class. If the sales of the S-class are anything to go by, they're doing just fine for the time being. Personally I don't think many buyers are truly that concerned, especially when MB's competitors are doing the same thing.

It's also worth noting that Mercedes is under different market pressures than Porsche, which has a parent company to help its cash flow. That's why the entry-level 718 was canceled and Porsche will still be just fine despite that. Mercedes has to run the full gamut of price segments to keep the financials healthy.

You're assuming the purpose of the car was to be understated. Not everyone in this segment wants a 911 when presented with the option of something more expressive. There's room in the market for choice.

All this coming from a happy 911 owner. :thumbsup:

That seems to be the current fashion, as exemplified by the C7 Corvette. I guess if the high-school doodle look sells cars it's hard to argue. Kids have more money nowadays than they (we) used to.

Trust that the average age of the buyer for these cars will still be 50+.

Anyone can stick the engine in the front.

Transformers - "robots in disguise" :vomit:

and as for those Maclaren lookalike driving mirrors .... well what can I say

I believe the comparisons are:
AMG GT vs 911S (~130 optioned vs ~120 optioned)
AMG GT-S vs TT (~165 optioned vs ~160 optioned)
AMG GT-BS vs GT3/RS (limited, so don't care about price, and both will sell out no issues)

Every time I hear of a car comparison to a 911, the conversation is always about it's performance on the track... I can say pretty confidently that <5%, maybe even less, of 911 owners ever even consider taking their car to the track... Most are used as daily drivers or weekend cars, more like a GT, than on the track. So a car that wants to compete with the 911 really needs to compete on a GT basis, meaning good and sporty looking, lots of power/torque, good engine noise, solid handling, and a comfortable and luxurious interior... On these comparisons, the AMG-GT will be a very strong competitor...

This would be high on my list to replace the 991S next year, but since I'm in Chicago, and I'm guessing there's not going to be a 4-matic, I'll stick to the 4S/TT/R8 I think...

I sense your frustration, Noah. You may recall a very long C7 thread a while back where I called the GM designers "scribblers". Now you're calling them doodlers. I've always been partial to "scribble" but we need to be open minded and hear out both sides.

So, as usual, I did a little research. A "doodle" is "a rough drawing made absentmindedly." You clearly staked out your position on solid ground there, my friend! But now let's consider "scribble": "a picture produced carelessly or hurriedly."

Its a tough call. I can practically hear people screaming, "why can't they both be right?!" But adolescent built-in obsolescence car design is serious business! Are they scribbled? Or doodled? RL cries out for an answer!

I hate to say this, but it may come down to state of mind. Were they absent-minded? Or careless and in a hurry? Absent-minded would imply they could do better if they were somehow able to focus. Careless and in a hurry sounds like they could do better just by paying attention and taking more time.

But they've never turned out a decent design in like 50 years. And if hundreds of millions of dollars isn't gonna focus your mind, what's it gonna take?

So maybe what we really have learned is we need an even more delightfully derogatory term for the stultiloquent meadow muffins these guys crap out onto the world every few years.

Where's WFB when you need him?

Perhaps the argument could be settled by coining a third verb to describe the C7 design process: "Azteking."

If you count DE as on the track I'd expect that more than 5% of the owners of the base model 911s track their cars. Of course almost every owner of a GT3 tracks his car, at least all of the ones that I know do.

I would count more than just the one-off DE as 'track', but that would probably still hold true... I assume that 60-70% of GT3/RS owners track their cars, but they represent a very small fraction of WW 911 volume... I would assume very few TT or TTS are tracked, very few convertibles are tracked, maybe a few 4/4S's but not many, and a small % of PDK Base/S's are tracked... How many manual base/S's are there?

There were 55,662 911's delivered WW in 2012 and 2013 (obviously doesn't include GT3's, etc), so at 5% there are roughly 2,800 2012/13 911's being used on the track? Even that seems high to me...

I think that sometimes we, myself included, as active members of an enthusiast site for a particular car, can be a bit jaded to what the profile of the 'average' buyer/owner is... We somewhat self-select by finding and joining the forum... There are significantly more buyers who like the image, etc of driving a sports car, but don't drive it much beyond the office or a restaurant... Quite frankly, I grew up racing karts and cars, and I've never tracked any of my 911s, but have either had other cars dedicated to it or borrowed cars for it (schools, etc)... Some of them have also been for my wife, who has <0 interest in the track...

Post of the day awesome and so true..lol!!!

The Merc is quicker than a GTS, but the gents at Automobile preferred the 911.

http://www.automobilemag.com/feature...rsche-911-gts/

:roflmao: :burnout:

Now they're going for blood!

"The car you dreamed of as a child has just been overtaken."


Pretty bold...


http://www.worldcarfans.com/11501308...911-nightmares

Or, maybe a psychological principle is at work...

They're trailing by 50 years so we'll see how well "catch up" goes.

Reminds me of all the early Android phone ads that had nothing to say except that that they were just like iPhones.

I work for Mercedes Benz in Orlando. In December I was invited to AMG expert training in Palm Desert, CA. where we would be testing the AMG GT S. We drove the track the first day and definitely a exciting and easy to drive car. It does have tons of performance. The second day we drove competitor cars(F Type, M series, and a 911 C2s) we went in the mountains and did some city driving. I have been breathing Mercedes Benz for the last 10 years. Long story short, just purchased my first 991 C2s last week and absolutely love it and drive it to my Benz dealer everyday!

Love it! :rockon:

Great story. Any nightmares??

The AMG GT just doesn't appeal to me. Would never consider it. I can appreciate it as a car, but the looks and styling just isn't me.

It will appeal to the Mercedes buyer, but not sure about many other people. The segment they're trying to compete in with this car is pretty crowded right now.

Swells991 - congrats on the car. Maybe a future job at a Porsche dealer?

I'm glad to see this AMG GT -- the SL went from being a beautiful boulevard cruiser with a lot of power but a dead, dull ride, to being a boulevard cruiser with a lot of power but a dead, dull ride. The current one with the hi-lift blunt nose just continues to look like somebody grafted a C350 sedan front clip onto a wrecked SL550. It's been out now long enough that if we were gonna grow to like it, we'd have done that by now.

So the AMG GT is a great step forward in that arena, in that (to paraphrase Inspector Renault) if I were a potential luxury/sports car buyer, and if the 911 didn't exist, I might find myself attracted to it. Ummm, if the AM Vantage V8 didn't exist. And, ummm, the R8. And the F-Type Coupe.

The new SL is indeed total disaster.

Yikes. Pretty shameless commercial by M-B. First they make a 911 wannabe then they try to mock it. Reminds me of the Samsung ads trying mock Apple (that worked out so well). One thing will always be consistent: Those who paint themselves as the "wannabe" and portray the other as the "king" (i.e the one that you have to use to advertise to promote yourself), do more damage to themselves, and raise the awareness of the model they're trying to overtake.

Biggest problem with the AMG GT is that the average person might mistake it for a CLA250. :surr:

+1

Every time I hear "AMG" I think of every review that JC has done on TG ... a stupidly big engine that totally overpowers the chassis and styling that came from HotWheels ... great if you want to go sideways and toast your tires f*** all use for anything else ... and its still a M-B.

I think AMG know how to build great engines ... but they pretty quickly run out of talent shortly thereafter IMO

I think so too. This add is simply weak. And that car....whats with that nose that won't end? Oh, there must be so much luggage space too in the mini boot. My wife and I did a 9 days road trip when we purchased a 991S and we had enough space for all we (she!) wanted to bring with us and purchase along the way. Im not sure i could do a weekend with a GT, and nevermind rear seats for the kids, the car wasn't designed that way. I guess they (MB) have a point, a rear engined car can't be an overall awesome machine.........

Well, it is in the running for most lame, pointless and cheesy commercial of 2015 so far.

What a joke. They're marketing it like a Toyota or Honda. Wrong, wrong approach.

Anyone who likes the commercials can't afford it, and those that can afford it are turned off by the commercials.

I thought rear "bumperettes" went out with the 997? Mercedes trying a retro look??

... And did anyone try closing their eyes whilst playing the ad and listening to the soundtrack... It's all 911!

I was going to give it a chance and go to a Merc dealer and sit in it and see if I could get a test drive. After that ad, I can't. I am afraid someone I know will see me!

You better not drive the 911 there. They'll make a commercial of you driving up for a test drive! Imagine the gleam in the sales guys eyes at the MB dealership.

Wear sunglasses too when getting an Uber ride to the dealership.

Extremely high chance I'll be dumping my 991 C4S for an AMG GT S. I love the emotion in this car and think it'll have a stronger personality than the 911. It already has that in the interior. Time will tell.

To be honest the strong [defensive] reaction its getting from this thread shows Mercedes might be on to something. One things for sure- Porsche won't be sitting still and the iconic 911 will be here for generations to come. I know I can always come back into the fold.

Chris Harris review of it is favorable. I like his work and his opinions are always reasonable.

I don't necessarily dislike this cars abilities, but I have never liked cars with massive front overhangs i.e. Vettes, Jags and now this. To me it just looks very odd and although I haven't even sat in one I'm almost certain it wouldn't be much fun for me to drive it. Even though Porsches have gotten bigger over the years, one of the best features I have always liked is the excellent view of the road ahead. It always gives me the impression of driving a much smaller car which I like.

+1

The AMG hood is huge. Not a fan of that look either.

Although I'm sure it will look nice in person I agree... on first impressions it kinda reminds me of this. :D

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...1b3c5a58d5.jpg

ha very funny......

I can see that. It definitely gives the car a more phallic shape too...:roflmao:

Maybe I am in the minority but I look forward to trying the GT-S. I had a Cayman S, 997.2S, now a 991S, really love it. But I also own 2 Benzes and enjoy them for their purposes. Even if the GT-S is not as good as it appears, so what, the fact that MB is taking this space seriously will keep Porsche on their toes.

I am a bit surprised by all of the negative reaction, as buyers of expensive specialty cars, we win when more competition occurs.

I'm not seeing a ton of negative reaction to the car itself, moreso the styling and marketing. Styling is subjective of course but the marketing has a bit of a try hard vibe to it for me... the ad with the kid dreaming is pure eyeroll to me.

That said I have no doubts that it is a brilliant car (all reviews seem to agree) but it is also not a Porsche. A whole new thing as Chris Harris would say. Whether that is better or worse depends on your perspective... but I don't see a bunch of Porsche drivers on a 991 forum favoring the front engine, long nose, tight cabin, low seating position, etc. Part of the 911's broad appeal is its everyday usability, something that the AMG GT seems to lack.

Interesting comments from R&D...

Good points, all, Vise.

I will add that some of us are just unapologetic Porsche lovers. I didn't set out to be that way -- when I was young and my skull still full of mush, sportscar racing was generally a matter of "which 934, 935, 936, 956. or 962 will win today, and which ones will take the rest of the podium spots?" There were no other choices.

And when street cars were every one regressing in the hp and revability departments, regular 911s kept getting marginally faster, and the 930 kept embarrassing every other car sold in the world. 930 vs. 308GTBi 2v at the same price? Are you kidding me?

So I simply want the Porsche offering. I love the look of the Aston Vantage; kinda like the R8, begrudgingly admire the performance of the (childish-looking) C7 Z06, salute the Viper and all it stands for, find the F-Type S to be alluring from many angles, and even appreciate the new Benz for its nod to the classic long-hood 300SLR shape necessitated by the old straight-six motors.

But in the end, with a bit of coin in the pocket and all of those available for about the same price I just realized I never even darkened the door of another dealership. I've been to my two Porsche dealerships a half-dozen times, and will be back a few more, but it never even occurred to me (literally) until I started typing this that I could actually buy any of the cars I just listed instead of a 911 GTS. I'm actually laughing at myself.

But I know the truth, in my case: I'll be happier with a 911 as good as the 991 GTS, even if every other car in its price range is actually better. :shrug: It's weird, but there it is.

(and by the way, I'm no apologist -- I rail against them as loudly as anyone else much of the time. I've had my complaints down through the years about the ones I've owned, and I've not bought a few because of various issues. But in the end...)

Whatever idiot came up with the whole "take on the 911" strategy should be fired. By them talking about the 911 so much, it legitimizes the fact that the 911 is an unbelievable and superior car. I think their idiotic marketing strategy will actually help 911 sales.

After all, how many other cars compete in this segment? It's not like nobody has cross shopped a 911 with other cars.

In most cases in the luxury high end car business, you should mention the competition.

Leave that to Toyota comparing itself to a Honda model.

Yeah its a bit much no doubt... on the one hand they need to be confident enough in their product to directly call out the 911 and by all accounts it is a great car. On the other it reeks of overcompensation and a desperate need to prove themselves against the icon ('I'm great, look at me!'). One car has a 50+ year legacy (road + race) and the other is a new car from a luxury brand that has relatively recently decided they are a sports car manufacturer. Something to be said for earning the recognition vs stating it unilaterally.

I do think the ad works on one level, definitely lots of buzz online and as the saying goes no such thing as bad publicity. That said it certainly will not convince the real hardcore Porsche lover to change allegiances. Just the opposite if anything.

They have sucked in the past, but surely they have the best talent now building the best cars in the most advanced and prestigious motor racing, namely the F1. Who knows, the talent could trickle down to their road cars some day.

Totally agree... as a big F1 fan the Mercedes-AMG team absolutely killed it in 2014, aside from a couple attrition issues no other team came close. If even 5% of that effort trickles down into their road cars that is a good thing.

Not that Porsche itself doesn't know a thing or two about racing either mind you. :D

I take it you have not driven or read any reviews of the almost universally praised SLS Black Series.

I do not know about the other bits of their road cars but their bi turbo motors are very good. I bought my wife the last of the e550s to be produced for the US market and the so called turbo lag is imperceptible to me from any speed or gear. That fact alone makes me think Porsche may do a bang up job. The exhaust is very deep and muted however.

I think it looks great. Don't think it will drive like a 911 but give merc credit for competing.

Personally, I don't see the GT as a classic design that's going to stand the test of time (say 50+ years).

https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/ima...mparison_5.jpg

If I was going to make a switch from the 911, I'd be far more interested in the new F-type (now that's a looker) vs the AMG GT.

https://ctvbnn.s3.amazonaws.com/Imag...uar-f-type.jpg

Thanks for reinforcing my quote of how ugly the Mercedes is. The Jag isn't far behind.

Thanks for the comparison pics!

Look at the length of the Mercedes from the front wheel well to the edge of the door! Yuck!

You could set up a tent and camp out on that hood!

Well, to be fair, a lot of that perceived length is in comparison to the 991, with it's insanely long front overhang. This means the Carrera's wheels are pushed way back towards the door, where the Benz's are pulled forward. Not really fair to focus on only that dimension.

Look instead at how little car is in front of the leading edge of the wheel well on the Benz, and they come out looking a lot better.

(Mind you, I don't like them at all -- just sayin')

Yes, I see that too. The front wheel pushed up and practically part of the headlight doesn't look great either on the AMG.

The proportions are downright comical. Way overboard to where it just loses the essence of "sexy" and looks like a phallic cartoon car. More clumsiness to overcome on a drive as well. And the interior apparently is as cramped and claustrophobia inducing as it looks.

I can't really judge the car without driving it, but I am a bit disturbed that they went with single piston sliding calipers in the back. Maybe I'm overestimating the amount of heat the rears will produce, but that smacks of inappropriate cost cutting. Having melted the brakes on my E92 M3 (granted, I was pushing them at the track), I am leery of brakes that can't withstand continued heavy use. In a car meant to compete with the 911 it doesn't seem like the right call.

Yes, I'd also take Jag F-Type over AMG GT. I saw F-Type in person a few times, and it was beautiful. The sound was cool, too. :cheers:

Right, how is it going to hold value or stand the test of time without those little thingies over the wheel openings? :icon107:

Thanks for posting that pic. I couldn't really figure out why I don't like the design of the new AMG. But love the old gullwing with a bit of overhang in the back as well. They obviously have been focusing on performance in this case. To get a mid engine feel and better weight distribution between rear and front!

Mercedes uses that setup frequently throughout their lineup. The SL63 (significantly heavier) and E63 AMG models have been extensively tested on the track by countless magazines with this setup and haven't had any issues.

I dont see either the aircraft lifts or the steam catapults anywhere ... maybe they are reserved for the "Nimitz" limited edition ...

"launch Mavrick in the alert 5 aircraft" ....

The bigger the lie the easier it is to sell apparently. That car is hilarious by the way. They tried as hard as they could to steal the 911 rear end while leaving the front looking like an ugly phallic kit car.

They'll sell some I guess because everything eventually sells. But I don't see this costing a single 911 sale. Anyone one that buys that ugly overpriced under performing design flaw isn't someone we want driving a 911 anyway. We'll leave them as crumbs on the floor for MB to pick up all day long.

Same price as a GT3 with less than non power kit C2S performance, butt ugly looks and it comes standard with its own built in inferiority complex. I bet Corvette steals more sales from it than it steals from Porsche lol

I do agree,...regardless of any performance differences, at this price level I only want to see nice multi-piston calipers on all four corners. Placing gaudy painted sliding calipers on this car screams cheap to me. Take some of the money spent on the bling interior and put it where it counts for a performance car.

So I got a chance to sit in the AMG GT S at the Toronto auto show on the weekend... although obviously I've yet to drive one just sitting in it was enough to convince me I made the right move going with a 911 (duh). I found the ingress/egress to be a bit of a pain as it has really wide door sills... I'm not exactly the most fit guy and I basically had to tumble in and out of it.

Once inside it is very tight with a low seating position... almost feels like you're sitting inside a tank. The rear visibility is terrible and from the drivers seat the hood looks like it stretches on for miles, seems like pointing the front end for tight parking situations could be very tricky until you get familiar with the dimensions. Admittedly the interior is really nice though, definitely feels special even if the cupholders/shifter situation is a bit odd. Also not a huge fan of the tacked on nav screen look but that is a general comment for BMW, Mercedes, and others.

As hard as it is to believe the front end looks even longer in person... honestly feels like half the car is in front of the windshield. The 911 I found is very much the opposite, the first thing I noticed was how bright it was inside and how great the 360 degree visibility is. Different approaches obviously but it goes back to the everyday usability of the 911 against the competition... that said I'll certainly take the GT S for a test drive when they hit dealers just to see what it is like.

Really? I think the GT is much more timeless than the F-Type. The F-Type is fussier and is going to date faster.

Optional rear spoiler. It looks like something you'd buy for a civic at Pep Boys.....:icon501:

https://image.motortrend.com/f/wot/1...ar-spoiler.jpg

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...wj4i4mkmnd.jpg

To be clear, it's not optional. It's offered as a standard feature on the Edition 1, and *only* on the Edition 1. You can't get an Edition 1 without it, you can't get a regular AMG GT / GT S with it.

Presumably when the AMG GT Black Series comes out, it'll have a meaner looking wing (just like the SLS AMG Black Series had a pretty mean looking wing).

Different strokes for different folks.

I think an AMG GT is great for the 911. More options, more competition, best of the best. Look at the American Muscle car war and what it has brought out. We have a 700+hp Challenger that includes a rocket ship sedan now. A 650+hp Mustang (new GT350R also) and two awesome Camaro variants. That competition create those cars. This is good for Porsche.

Love the F-Type R Coupe. It is GORGEOUS.

AMG-GT is reserved but I like what it's going with. 911 definitely seems more useable.

Great time to be in this segment! Viper, GT-R, Corvette, 911, F-Type, R8, AMG-GT Lots of great cars.

Lastly, LOL at M-B just recently being a sports-car company. Also, whining about their ads with the dreaming kid. Porsche did that 10 years ago and it was brilliant. Whoever said that, stop drinking the haterade. That is reaching....... far.

Porsche's may have been brilliant, but MB's is straight desperate and corny in execution, not to mention yet another example of copying Porsche and hanging onto their cajones. Porsche have always had more biting and focused ads. MB ads these days are very mass consumerism cheese. Like Automotive equivalent to what you'd expect from a Walmart commercial or something.

Like any business segment, the greater the competition the better the overall business becomes. Competition is good even if it misses the mark somewhat it will still attract buyers and make noise. Top brand competition even more so. Everybody gets better.

Who cares if the ads copy Porsche or are similar or even inferior. You know what the sincerest for of flattery is....

This. :thumbup:

This is definitely different strokes for different folks.

If I was in the market for a grand tourer/daily driver, I would be hard pressed not to look in to the AMG GT S.

I has fantastic power and emotion and all the bells and whistles that you expect from Mercedes.

However, it's not raw enough for me and it's more of a GT than a true sports car. That's why I have a GT3 on order and not the AMG GT S Edition 1. But, if I had to choose between a Carrera S or AMG GT S, I think I'd go with an AMG GT S.

If you're interested, I have my review of the AMG GT S when I drove it on the track and street here:
http://mbworld.org/forums/amg-gt-gts...-amg-gt-s.html

Not a fan of the car, but this GT3 version looks ALOT better!

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11502278...ially-unveiled

How convenient to call it "GT3". I know, I know, it's for the race, but considering every other derivative element of this car....

Get off of Porsche's nutts, MB. :D

Not really...

Porsche is the only company that calls their road cars GT3 after the racing league (or GT4). Everyone else names their GT3 race cars GT3, and their road cars something different. :)

SLS AMG Black Series vs. SLS AMG GT3
911 GT3 / GT3 RS vs. GT3 Cup Car / 911 RSR

You're really reaching now.... :icon107:

Don't get all the hate, I think that GT looks and sounds dope! The GT3 will definitely be a monster. AMG has a totally different approach and feel to their cars. I don't think many 911 fans will make a switch, the competition lies with the folks who are agnostic to the brand and just want a fast, expensive car, and who maybe like attention a bit more. But boy does AMG build great engines!

Agree, I think it's a rather sharp looking car. As iconic a shape as the 911? No, but still an attractive car in its own right. In my opinion, of course.

I agree with you, but Porsche people are on thin ice with that particular comment.

While MB wastes time trying to re-invent the 911.

Audi once again produces a car that is both unique and stunning.

Take note Mercedes.......this is how it's done. :thumbup:

Sadly, I feel both the frontend and backend of the new R8 are dramatically boring compared to the previous (current) R8. :(

Hoping it'll grow on me.

R8's do nothing for me for some reason.

Disappointed in the new R8's looks. Love the engine specs for it but Audi's new design language is just boring.

I remember when the first R8 came out it wowed the masses. This one hasn't had that same response.

I really like the R8 but could not ever really accept that added contrast piece down the side it looked so out of place.

It's a beautiful car, no doubt, but like the TT, all things Audi converge as generations go by..... For me it is the divergent design of the originals that make me stop in my tracks... The new R8 styling is great but only in a clean predictable way.... &Scaron;hame

Totally agree.

Put me firmly in the "disappointed" camp in this new R8 as well. Audi could've, and should've, gone farther with this. I'm sure it'll perform well though.

new R8 looks like it took some styling cues from the new vette ... which thinks its a transformer - robots in disguise ... design by HotWheels@tm