Lease C4S - Residuals and Money Factors?
02-02-2013, 05:57 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
You can use this lease calculator. Finding the current money factor and residuals is the hardest part but looks like we have some good info provided.
http://www.calculator.com/pantaserv/lease.calc
Assuming 0.77 residual, 24 months, 12K miles, 5% off MSRP, .0020 money factor, 8% sale tax, $1408.01/mo ($1303.72 pretax). Multiply the money factor by 2400 to calculate interest rate.
But based on lemonade's info residual would be 73%, or a monthly payment with tax is $1555.81.
For a $95k 991 at 5% off and 76% residual, the monthly payment comes down to $1163 including an 8% sale tax.
http://www.calculator.com/pantaserv/lease.calc
Assuming 0.77 residual, 24 months, 12K miles, 5% off MSRP, .0020 money factor, 8% sale tax, $1408.01/mo ($1303.72 pretax). Multiply the money factor by 2400 to calculate interest rate.
But based on lemonade's info residual would be 73%, or a monthly payment with tax is $1555.81.
For a $95k 991 at 5% off and 76% residual, the monthly payment comes down to $1163 including an 8% sale tax.
02-02-2013, 08:20 PM
#17
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You can use this lease calculator. Finding the current money factor and residuals is the hardest part but looks like we have some good info provided.
http://www.calculator.com/pantaserv/lease.calc
Assuming 0.77 residual, 24 months, 12K miles, 5% off MSRP, .0020 money factor, 8% sale tax, $1408.01/mo ($1303.72 pretax). Multiply the money factor by 2400 to calculate interest rate.
But based on lemonade's info residual would be 73%, or a monthly payment with tax is $1555.81.
For a $95k 991 at 5% off and 76% residual, the monthly payment comes down to $1163 including an 8% sale tax.
http://www.calculator.com/pantaserv/lease.calc
Assuming 0.77 residual, 24 months, 12K miles, 5% off MSRP, .0020 money factor, 8% sale tax, $1408.01/mo ($1303.72 pretax). Multiply the money factor by 2400 to calculate interest rate.
But based on lemonade's info residual would be 73%, or a monthly payment with tax is $1555.81.
For a $95k 991 at 5% off and 76% residual, the monthly payment comes down to $1163 including an 8% sale tax.
02-04-2013, 04:21 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
That isn't encouraging. I was in there a couple weeks ago for the pre-lease return consultation or whatever they call it, and when I inquired about any current lease specials (knowing what has been discussed here), they said there were none and quoted me something ridiculous like $1,550/month for 36 months on a non-S coupe with few options. And they would not provide me the MF or residual for how they came up with this amount.
02-04-2013, 05:27 PM
#19
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My experience with Pacific Porsche was fantastic. I had been talking with other dealers and they didn't have inventory that was close enough to what I was looking for. I looked on the web and saw a spec that was quite close to my ideal. I filled out the online form on their website and was contacted almost immediately by their internet sales manager.
Unfortunately, the car wasn't in stock yet, but it was estimated that it would be in 3 days. I thought "more car dealer games" and just said "call me when you have it". It showed up in 3 days. Unfortunately I was headed out of town for a trip and couldn't do the deal right away.
They held the car for me (put a sold sign w/ my name) on the showroom floor for almost a week - with no deposit! They matched or beat every number that the other dealers came up with, which I had arrived at after at least a couple rounds of back-and-forth.
There are many factors (dealership, salesman, time of month/year, inventory, model, etc.), but it all lined up for me. It's still hard for me to believe.
Unfortunately, the car wasn't in stock yet, but it was estimated that it would be in 3 days. I thought "more car dealer games" and just said "call me when you have it". It showed up in 3 days. Unfortunately I was headed out of town for a trip and couldn't do the deal right away.
They held the car for me (put a sold sign w/ my name) on the showroom floor for almost a week - with no deposit! They matched or beat every number that the other dealers came up with, which I had arrived at after at least a couple rounds of back-and-forth.
There are many factors (dealership, salesman, time of month/year, inventory, model, etc.), but it all lined up for me. It's still hard for me to believe.
02-04-2013, 06:17 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
There was an Agate non-S with Sport Techno wheels on the showroom floor with a 'sold' sign on it when I was there a couple weeks ago - was that yours? It looked great.
Anyway, their service department disappointed me last time as well. They are a long way from where I live, so less-than-exceptional sales and service has me looking elsewhere for the next Porsche.
Anyway, their service department disappointed me last time as well. They are a long way from where I live, so less-than-exceptional sales and service has me looking elsewhere for the next Porsche.
02-04-2013, 06:22 PM
#21
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Yeah, that was the car they had on hold for me.
PM me if you want any more anecdotes from my search. I'm hesitant to air out all details... not sure what is good etiquette and I respect the challenges that the dealers have.
PM me if you want any more anecdotes from my search. I'm hesitant to air out all details... not sure what is good etiquette and I respect the challenges that the dealers have.
02-11-2013, 01:27 AM
#22
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No offense to anyone and not pointing anyone out. But I never use credit and never been in dept of any kind for 25+ yrs luckily I learned my lesson early . I quote Dave Ramsey "Its a called a fleece NOT a lease" and its a fact only 10% of multi millionaires lease vehicles.
From a article my investment adviser did a while back. I know most people won't believe me nor do I care if they do. I just don't like seeing people getting ripped off.
"Leasing is just about the most expensive way on the planet to have a car...
Statistically, leasing is the most expensive way to have a car. Think about it: the company leasing the car to you has to not only pay for depreciation, but they also have to make a profit or they are out of business. That profit can only come from one place--you! Can you imagine what it would cost you to drive a rental car every single day? Well, leasing a car is basically just a very longterm rental agreement. You give them cash up front, you pay a fee (lease payment) during the time you have the car, then you give the car back to them at the end of the lease and pay any damages or excessive mileage. Sounds like a rental to me!
And about that excessive mileage: I know of a family who leased a car and ran the mileage up very quickly. The over-mileage fee at that time was about seventeen cents per mile. The average car is driven 15,000 miles per year, so their over-mileage fees would have come to $2,550 per year which is $212.50 per month on top of their lease payment expense. For the last year they had the car (waiting for the lease to end) they had to park the car in the garage and buy an old junker to drive because they couldn’t afford both the lease payment and the over-mileage fees. Statistics have shown that the average person who leases a car pays an additional $1,000 in fees and expenses when they turn the car back in at the end of the lease.
The reason leasing looks good to so many people is because they are thinking short term. You lease a car for three years, make a lower payment than if you had bought the car, turn the car back in at the end of the lease, and start another lease on your next car. Any advanteges to leasing a car pretty much disappear after the first three-year lease. The dealer leasing you the car will tell you that it costs less to lease a car than to buy one, and that is correct--but only for the term of the lease. After that, leasing a car gets more and more expensive while a purchased car gets cheaper and cheaper. Remember that in a lease you are pretty much just renting the car, and renting is an expensive way to have a car.
Put it this way. You ask a close friend of yours if you can borrow his car. He says to you "sure, you can borrow the car, but you’ll have to make my car payment during the time you drive the car, pay me a small fee up front, then pay a fee for mileage when you return it." Would you borrow a car under those conditions? I certainly wouldn’t; but, that’s exactly what you’re doing when you lease a car.
Let’s look at the math involved in buying a car versus leasing, assuming the life of a car is about 9 years (it’s actually more like 10 years, but we’ll use 9) and we’re going to sign up for a three-year lease. We are looking at a car that sells for $23,000 new.
If we lease:
We have a lease payment of say $350 per month. We pay the lease company $1,100 in ’due at signing’ costs and we drive the car for the entire trhree-year lease. During that 3 years, we have paid 36 payments of $350 which comes to $12,600. We add in the $1,100 we paid up front to bring it to $13,700. When we return the car, we pay the statistical average of $1,000 in mileage, wear and tear, and cleaning fees. So, at the end of three years, we have paid a total of $14,700 to drive our leased car. At the end of the three years, we do it all again to lease another nice, new car. Using the same numbers we just calculated, over nine years of driving (three different car leases) we have spent $44,100 to have a car for nine years. We are averaging a cost of $4,900 per year to drive a leased car.
If we buy:
We can reasonably assume a payment of somewhere around $400 per month. That’s $50 more per month than the lease payment, so at this point the lease is still looking pretty good. We drive that same car for it’s entire nine year life. In six years, the loan is repaid and we have made $28,800 in payments. Lets say that during the nine years we’ve owned the car, we have put $6,000 into repairs. When we are done with the car at the end of our 9 years, we manage to sell it for $500. So, we made $28,800 in payments, paid out $6,000 in repairs, and got back $500 when we sold it. $28,800 + $6,000 - $500 = $34,300 we have paid to drive the car for nine years--an average cost of $3,811 per year. The leased car cost us $1,089 MORE per year. Plus, when we buy a car, we get to drive it with no payments whatsoever once the loan is paid. With a lease, you have payments each and every month for the entire time you drive leased cars.
My investment counselor always always says to NEVER lease a car nor loan a car. But that's a whole other game there. In any case fortunately Im lucky enough never do both with anything I buy with a debit card, be it cars or homes.
Whatever you decide is you're choice. I'm not saying what to do or not to do. It just one man's opinion. Good luck.
From a article my investment adviser did a while back. I know most people won't believe me nor do I care if they do. I just don't like seeing people getting ripped off.
"Leasing is just about the most expensive way on the planet to have a car...
Statistically, leasing is the most expensive way to have a car. Think about it: the company leasing the car to you has to not only pay for depreciation, but they also have to make a profit or they are out of business. That profit can only come from one place--you! Can you imagine what it would cost you to drive a rental car every single day? Well, leasing a car is basically just a very longterm rental agreement. You give them cash up front, you pay a fee (lease payment) during the time you have the car, then you give the car back to them at the end of the lease and pay any damages or excessive mileage. Sounds like a rental to me!
And about that excessive mileage: I know of a family who leased a car and ran the mileage up very quickly. The over-mileage fee at that time was about seventeen cents per mile. The average car is driven 15,000 miles per year, so their over-mileage fees would have come to $2,550 per year which is $212.50 per month on top of their lease payment expense. For the last year they had the car (waiting for the lease to end) they had to park the car in the garage and buy an old junker to drive because they couldn’t afford both the lease payment and the over-mileage fees. Statistics have shown that the average person who leases a car pays an additional $1,000 in fees and expenses when they turn the car back in at the end of the lease.
The reason leasing looks good to so many people is because they are thinking short term. You lease a car for three years, make a lower payment than if you had bought the car, turn the car back in at the end of the lease, and start another lease on your next car. Any advanteges to leasing a car pretty much disappear after the first three-year lease. The dealer leasing you the car will tell you that it costs less to lease a car than to buy one, and that is correct--but only for the term of the lease. After that, leasing a car gets more and more expensive while a purchased car gets cheaper and cheaper. Remember that in a lease you are pretty much just renting the car, and renting is an expensive way to have a car.
Put it this way. You ask a close friend of yours if you can borrow his car. He says to you "sure, you can borrow the car, but you’ll have to make my car payment during the time you drive the car, pay me a small fee up front, then pay a fee for mileage when you return it." Would you borrow a car under those conditions? I certainly wouldn’t; but, that’s exactly what you’re doing when you lease a car.
Let’s look at the math involved in buying a car versus leasing, assuming the life of a car is about 9 years (it’s actually more like 10 years, but we’ll use 9) and we’re going to sign up for a three-year lease. We are looking at a car that sells for $23,000 new.
If we lease:
We have a lease payment of say $350 per month. We pay the lease company $1,100 in ’due at signing’ costs and we drive the car for the entire trhree-year lease. During that 3 years, we have paid 36 payments of $350 which comes to $12,600. We add in the $1,100 we paid up front to bring it to $13,700. When we return the car, we pay the statistical average of $1,000 in mileage, wear and tear, and cleaning fees. So, at the end of three years, we have paid a total of $14,700 to drive our leased car. At the end of the three years, we do it all again to lease another nice, new car. Using the same numbers we just calculated, over nine years of driving (three different car leases) we have spent $44,100 to have a car for nine years. We are averaging a cost of $4,900 per year to drive a leased car.
If we buy:
We can reasonably assume a payment of somewhere around $400 per month. That’s $50 more per month than the lease payment, so at this point the lease is still looking pretty good. We drive that same car for it’s entire nine year life. In six years, the loan is repaid and we have made $28,800 in payments. Lets say that during the nine years we’ve owned the car, we have put $6,000 into repairs. When we are done with the car at the end of our 9 years, we manage to sell it for $500. So, we made $28,800 in payments, paid out $6,000 in repairs, and got back $500 when we sold it. $28,800 + $6,000 - $500 = $34,300 we have paid to drive the car for nine years--an average cost of $3,811 per year. The leased car cost us $1,089 MORE per year. Plus, when we buy a car, we get to drive it with no payments whatsoever once the loan is paid. With a lease, you have payments each and every month for the entire time you drive leased cars.
My investment counselor always always says to NEVER lease a car nor loan a car. But that's a whole other game there. In any case fortunately Im lucky enough never do both with anything I buy with a debit card, be it cars or homes.
Whatever you decide is you're choice. I'm not saying what to do or not to do. It just one man's opinion. Good luck.
02-11-2013, 01:06 PM
#24
With that aside I just leased a 27k msrp Camry for my girlfriend and we pay 245 a month with nothing down, and thats a 24 month contract. Not sure you are in touch with leasing rates and manufacturer inflated residuals. Fact is your advisor is taking a broad view without doing the math on a per vehicle basis. Some vehicles have awful leases and some vehicles has sensational leases. I would agree though that if you do not have the know how to calculate and negotiate a lease effectively, you should stay away as it is easy to get taken for a ride.
02-11-2013, 02:20 PM
#25
Same here.
With that aside I just leased a 27k msrp Camry for my girlfriend and we pay 245 a month with nothing down, and thats a 24 month contract. Not sure you are in touch with leasing rates and manufacturer inflated residuals. Fact is your advisor is taking a broad view without doing the math on a per vehicle basis. Some vehicles have awful leases and some vehicles has sensational leases. I would agree though that if you do not have the know how to calculate and negotiate a lease effectively, you should stay away as it is easy to get taken for a ride.
With that aside I just leased a 27k msrp Camry for my girlfriend and we pay 245 a month with nothing down, and thats a 24 month contract. Not sure you are in touch with leasing rates and manufacturer inflated residuals. Fact is your advisor is taking a broad view without doing the math on a per vehicle basis. Some vehicles have awful leases and some vehicles has sensational leases. I would agree though that if you do not have the know how to calculate and negotiate a lease effectively, you should stay away as it is easy to get taken for a ride.
A Camry is a very high quality DD car that can easily last for six years 90K miles, with minimum maintenance. If the car is well maintained you should be able to easily retail that car for $10K after 6 years of ownership. So you lost $17K over six years which is about as good as it gets from an economical perspective.
Just google car leases and you'll get many leasing examples from unbiased sources. The only leasing advantage that I can see is that it allows people to drive cars that they otherwise couldn't afford to buy. Also, there may be an advantage to those who want buy new cars every 2-3 years and don't want to go through the hassle of selling their cars to private buyers.
02-11-2013, 03:19 PM
#26
You never ever want to own a depreciating asset...Henry Ford. The first 911 I owned, I paid with cash. Within the first 2 weeks, someone keyed ever panel on the vehicle. Despite repainting it, the value dropped from 95k to 60k overnight. If you know how to structure a lease, it is the only way to go on acquiring an expensive depreciating "asset".
Last edited by TestnDoc; 02-11-2013 at 09:33 PM.
02-11-2013, 03:50 PM
#27
The killer is the depreciation rate which is the highest during the first three years which is the typical lease term. So you will always be hit with these huge depreciation costs if you always lease. Moreover, there are fees like dealer aquisition and other leasing fees that you don't incur when you buy a car.
A Camry is a very high quality DD car that can easily last for six years 90K miles, with minimum maintenance. If the car is well maintained you should be able to easily retail that car for $10K after 6 years of ownership. So you lost $17K over six years which is about as good as it gets from an economical perspective.
Just google car leases and you'll get many leasing examples from unbiased sources. The only leasing advantage that I can see is that it allows people to drive cars that they otherwise couldn't afford to buy. Also, there may be an advantage to those who want buy new cars every 2-3 years and don't want to go through the hassle of selling their cars to private buyers.
A Camry is a very high quality DD car that can easily last for six years 90K miles, with minimum maintenance. If the car is well maintained you should be able to easily retail that car for $10K after 6 years of ownership. So you lost $17K over six years which is about as good as it gets from an economical perspective.
Just google car leases and you'll get many leasing examples from unbiased sources. The only leasing advantage that I can see is that it allows people to drive cars that they otherwise couldn't afford to buy. Also, there may be an advantage to those who want buy new cars every 2-3 years and don't want to go through the hassle of selling their cars to private buyers.
This leasing v buying argument really is like politics and religion. We will most likely never agree and there is nothing wrong with that. As long as everyone gets a porsche
02-11-2013, 04:23 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
And your argument against leasing is terrible. You need to compare leasing a car every three years to buying a car every three years for a fair comparison. If you structure your lease with a big payment up-front and a lower mileage allowance than you will need, well, you are doing it wrong. Yes, plenty of people make this mistake, but that is unfortunately their fault. If you bang the car up, you will need to repair it whether it is a lease or whether you hope to sell it after 9 years. And what happens to your comparison when your M96 motor craps out in year 7 of your 9 year ownership? Or as somebody else mentioned, what happens to the value of your Porsche after 9 years if it has some repair history?
Leasing is definitely not for everybody, and with today's low loan rates, leasing may not even make sense for business owners. But to advocate NEVER using anything other than cash is naive and poor advice.
Don't get me started on only paying cash for real estate...
02-16-2013, 07:12 PM
#29
Said simply - Why, oh why, would ANYBODY lock up $100k+ in a freakin car??? That depreciates!
Who the hell is this advisor? Teach him/her a new word: liquidity.
02-16-2013, 07:55 PM
#30
Burning Brakes
Doubtful the Porsche sales or finance person(s) cares one iota whether you lease, finance or pay cash - let alone that you can afford to do so. Make it happen now!
They could care less as long as they get paid... end of story.
They could care less as long as they get paid... end of story.