2014 Stingray
01-17-2013, 11:21 PM
#106
Rennlist Member
My "elitism" is excusable precisely because I'm not a snob, having owned a Camaro, a Corvette, and a Porsche among other sports/GT cars. The thing that frustrates me about the Corvette is that they could turn it into a world class car but refuse to. Someone told GM that winning races was enough. It isn't. Building a great street car is tougher than building a great race car, and Porsche is one of the few manufacturers who understand that.
Porsche owners complain about having to pay sky-high prices for options that lesser cars throw in for free, and it's a fair complaint. But no matter how much money I throw at a C7, I'm still going to get the torque converter from my father's Oldsmobile, or a single-clutch manual with a shifter that will feel like it belongs on a UPS truck. I'm still going to get the rear suspension from a Model T, with ride quality to match. And I'm still going to get a body that was drawn by a kid in high school detention, a sentence imposed on him for drawing a really bitchin' machine gun the day before.
I bought my last Porsche twenty years ago. I haven't ordered a 991 yet, but I'm probably going to, because there's nothing else on the market that can compete with the whole package. One of the things I was waiting for was to see what the C7 was going to look like, both aesthetically and technically. I have my answer, and I honestly don't believe I have to drive the C7 to confirm my first impression.
Porsche. There is no substitute. And that's not a good thing.
Porsche owners complain about having to pay sky-high prices for options that lesser cars throw in for free, and it's a fair complaint. But no matter how much money I throw at a C7, I'm still going to get the torque converter from my father's Oldsmobile, or a single-clutch manual with a shifter that will feel like it belongs on a UPS truck. I'm still going to get the rear suspension from a Model T, with ride quality to match. And I'm still going to get a body that was drawn by a kid in high school detention, a sentence imposed on him for drawing a really bitchin' machine gun the day before.
I bought my last Porsche twenty years ago. I haven't ordered a 991 yet, but I'm probably going to, because there's nothing else on the market that can compete with the whole package. One of the things I was waiting for was to see what the C7 was going to look like, both aesthetically and technically. I have my answer, and I honestly don't believe I have to drive the C7 to confirm my first impression.
Porsche. There is no substitute. And that's not a good thing.
01-17-2013, 11:24 PM
#107
Race Director
After reading through all of these posts, I have to conclude that with just a few exceptions, this is an elitist group that reinforces the sterotypes that abound about Porsche owners. It's amazing to me that so many posters have formed their conclusions about the C7 without ever having seen the car in person. In my case I will do something radical. I'll reserve my judgement until I actually get to drive the car and see it in person.
To have a preference for one approach over the other isn't elitist, it's just a preference. I respect the Corvette's performance and value and, as others have said, I hope it succeeds. But I have no desire to own one, now even less so because of the styling changes that Chevy has seen fit to make, and the technical upgrades they haven't. That doesn't make me a bad, insecure person, does it?
Last edited by Mike in CA; 01-17-2013 at 11:39 PM.
01-17-2013, 11:36 PM
#108
The level of insecurity on display in this thread is amazing. So many stereotypes being fulfilled, not just of Porsche owners, but of sports car drivers in general. You can get the same kind of thread in a Ferrari forum about Porsche, or in a Corvette forum about Mustangs.
Lots of people define themselves through their cars. I always find it a pathetic trait.
Lots of people define themselves through their cars. I always find it a pathetic trait.
I feel your pain more than you know. It's a shame GM could not come up with something better. I would like to see America's flagship sports car out perform foreign cars in every way but if we cannot handle diverse views it might be a good idea to find a cave without an Internet connection. Ah the Taliban. Funny rigid judgmental pathetic guys.Has anyone considered that making statements about elitism and stereotypes (unless it is a joke) being bad reveals certain vulnerabilities and weaknesses about themselves? Grist for the mill. Now can we continue to talk about the C7 and some good jokes?
01-18-2013, 06:49 AM
#109
Rennlist Member
After reading through all of these posts, I have to conclude that with just a few exceptions, this is an elitist group that reinforces the sterotypes that abound about Porsche owners. It's amazing to me that so many posters have formed their conclusions about the C7 without ever having seen the car in person. In my case I will do something radical. I'll reserve my judgement until I actually get to drive the car and see it in person.
I will also add that as much as folks say the Vette is getting closer to the 991, the opposite it true as well. It doesn't matter who was first either. Just food for thought.
01-18-2013, 11:01 AM
#110
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There's nothing wrong with expressing personal opinions, or even busting automotive ***** a bit (particularly if you can be funny about it). I very much prefer 911s over Corvettes myself.
But the "I go home in a Porsche, he goes home in a Chevy" sort of comments reflect more poorly on the writer than they do on Corvette owners. That's lame elitism, pure and simple.
But the "I go home in a Porsche, he goes home in a Chevy" sort of comments reflect more poorly on the writer than they do on Corvette owners. That's lame elitism, pure and simple.
01-18-2013, 11:13 AM
#111
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From a price-to-performance standpoint, I don't think they could be expected to do any better than they already do. Historically there have been two big legitimate knocks on the Corvette: they lack handling feel / finesse, and the interiors (particularly the seats) blow donkey nuts.
Too soon to say anything about the handling feel of this car, although Chevy seems to be making strides in that department (the latest Cadillac apparently handles beautifully... better than the 3 series). And certainly they have stepped it up a notch in terms of interiors. Seats with real bolsters... do my eyes deceive me?!
The styling of the C7 is too garish and cartoonish for my tastes, but overall, at least at a glance, I think they've put together a terrific product.
Too soon to say anything about the handling feel of this car, although Chevy seems to be making strides in that department (the latest Cadillac apparently handles beautifully... better than the 3 series). And certainly they have stepped it up a notch in terms of interiors. Seats with real bolsters... do my eyes deceive me?!
The styling of the C7 is too garish and cartoonish for my tastes, but overall, at least at a glance, I think they've put together a terrific product.
01-18-2013, 11:21 AM
#112
There's nothing wrong with expressing personal opinions, or even busting automotive ***** a bit (particularly if you can be funny about it). I very much prefer 911s over Corvettes myself.
But the "I go home in a Porsche, he goes home in a Chevy" sort of comments reflect more poorly on the writer than they do on Corvette owners. That's lame elitism, pure and simple.
But the "I go home in a Porsche, he goes home in a Chevy" sort of comments reflect more poorly on the writer than they do on Corvette owners. That's lame elitism, pure and simple.
<circus music playing in the background and slowly getting loud as holminator talks> Elitism may not be a bad thing though and I suspect many people, who think they are not elitist, should perhaps sleep overnight in an below poverty level community and see how they react. Humans are hardwired for that kind of judgmentalism. It can be minimized but not avoided.
01-18-2013, 12:18 PM
#113
Nordschleife Master
It's undeniable that Porsche and Corvette have different ideas about what's important in a sports car, and their execution of those ideas has historically been very different. Even though I've only read about and seen pictures of the C7 I don't think anyone believes that it is going to be a 180 degree change from what the Corvette has always been. For one thing, Corvette lovers wouldn't stand for it, just as fans of Porsche wouldn't stand for radical change to the 911.
To have a preference for one approach over the other isn't elitist, it's just a preference. I respect the Corvette's performance and value and, as others have said, I hope it succeeds. But I have no desire to own one, now even less so because of the styling changes that Chevy has seen fit to make, and the technical upgrades they haven't. That doesn't make me a bad, insecure person, does it?
To have a preference for one approach over the other isn't elitist, it's just a preference. I respect the Corvette's performance and value and, as others have said, I hope it succeeds. But I have no desire to own one, now even less so because of the styling changes that Chevy has seen fit to make, and the technical upgrades they haven't. That doesn't make me a bad, insecure person, does it?
With the C7 comes many advanced updates.
Active Rev Matching ensures the perfect shifts whether you’re up-shifting or down-shifting.
The 991 has down-shifting at extra $ but it has no up-shifting. I’d point out down-shifting is no big deal it only helps those that can’t heel and tow but even for those who can, it will do this for you perfectly every time. Now up-shifting is where the real improvement is. This is where automatic transmission like PDK improve acceleration performance because there is no loss of rpm and power when it changes gears. With the C7 active rev matching will close the gap that the flappy paddle gear boxes have and guess what, it does this and you get to keep your clutch pedal and not lose all the enjoyment of driving. Also rev matching feature can be turned off/on by paddles on the wheel.
Who needs PDK and an extra 45 lbs of weight now.
Electronic limited-slip differential, electronic e-brake
Active exhaust systems valves that open for enhanced performance and sound like PSE without the extra $
DFI and cylinder deactivation.
Brembo Brakes and 18/19″ wheels with Michelin Pilot Super Sport run-flat tires. Rear tires are now 285’s, due to improved rubber technology which sure will help in the rain vs the hydroplaning 325’s, I’ll take 18’s over those 991 20’s any day.
New aluminum frame structure that is 57% stiffer and 99 pounds lighter than the C6 steel frame.
Improved aerodynamics help balance front and rear grip for high-speed driving. This is the vent in the hood that pushes air flow down and keeps the front end from lifting.
Head lights that don’t look like they came from the 60’s era.
Interior is really improved, leather and real aluminum and carbon fiber trim everywhere. Competition seats that look like GT2 seats. Instrument cluster that has advanced technologies include a five-position Drive Mode Selector that optimizes 12 different configurations for the driving conditions in five settings: Weather, Eco, Tour, Sport and Track. Two 720p high-def eight-inch screens and a configurable color heads up display provide the driver with the personalized details. I’ll take that over the out of place 100 button Panamera center console in the 991.
It’s value, I’d expect that the C7 will run circles around 991’s at the track all for the price of a Boxster S.
Last edited by jumper5836; 01-18-2013 at 12:52 PM.
01-18-2013, 12:28 PM
#114
Nordschleife Master
My "elitism" is excusable precisely because I'm not a snob, having owned a Camaro, a Corvette, and a Porsche among other sports/GT cars. The thing that frustrates me about the Corvette is that they could turn it into a world class car but refuse to. Someone told GM that winning races was enough. It isn't. Building a great street car is tougher than building a great race car, and Porsche is one of the few manufacturers who understand that.
01-18-2013, 12:41 PM
#115
Burning Brakes
i like 991 and the c7 but cannot really compare 911 to vette. 911 is too refined, as it should be for twice the price.
991 is better compared to amg, bmw m, and jag rs. its porsche performance vs the other's luxury
i think a cayman comparison is interesting as closer in price. in this case, its cayman's refinement vs vette's performance.
991 is better compared to amg, bmw m, and jag rs. its porsche performance vs the other's luxury
i think a cayman comparison is interesting as closer in price. in this case, its cayman's refinement vs vette's performance.
01-18-2013, 12:58 PM
#116
Nordschleife Master
Huh? technical upgrades. Porsche is not the best in this aspect and you have to pay for it.
With the C7 comes many advanced updates.
Active Rev Matching ensures the perfect shifts whether you’re up-shifting or down-shifting.
The 991 has down-shifting at extra $ but it has no up-shifting. I’d point out down-shifting is no big deal it only helps those that can’t heel and tow but even for those who can, it will do this for you perfectly every time. Now up-shifting is where the real improvement is. This is where automatic transmission like PDK improve acceleration performance because there is no loss of rpm and power when it changes gears. With the C7 active rev matching will close the gap that the flappy paddle gear boxes have and guess what, it does this and you get to keep your clutch pedal and not lose all the enjoyment of driving. Also rev matching feature can be turned off/on by paddles on the wheel.
Who needs PDK and an extra 45 lbs of weight now.
Electronic limited-slip differential
Active exhaust systems valves that open for enhanced performance and sound like PSE without the extra $
Brembo Brakes and 18/19″ wheels with Michelin Pilot Super Sport run-flat tires. Rear tires are now 285’s, due to improved rubber technology which sure will help in the rain vs the hydroplaning 325’s, I’ll take 18’s over those 991 20’s any day.
New aluminum frame structure that is 57% stiffer and 99 pounds lighter than the C6 steel frame.
Improved aerodynamics help balance front and rear grip for high-speed driving. This is the vent in the hood that pushes air flow down and keeps the front end from lifting.
Head lights that don’t look like they came from the 60’s era.
Interior is really improved, leather and real aluminum and carbon fiber trim everywhere. Competition seats that look like GT2 seats. Instrument cluster that has advanced technologies include a five-position Drive Mode Selector that optimizes 12 different configurations for the driving conditions in five settings: Weather, Eco, Tour, Sport and Track. Two 720p high-def eight-inch screens and a configurable color heads up display provide the driver with the personalized details. I’ll take that over the out of place 100 button Panamera center console in the 991.
It’s value, I’d expect that the C7 will run circles around 991’s at the track all for the price of a Boxster S.
With the C7 comes many advanced updates.
Active Rev Matching ensures the perfect shifts whether you’re up-shifting or down-shifting.
The 991 has down-shifting at extra $ but it has no up-shifting. I’d point out down-shifting is no big deal it only helps those that can’t heel and tow but even for those who can, it will do this for you perfectly every time. Now up-shifting is where the real improvement is. This is where automatic transmission like PDK improve acceleration performance because there is no loss of rpm and power when it changes gears. With the C7 active rev matching will close the gap that the flappy paddle gear boxes have and guess what, it does this and you get to keep your clutch pedal and not lose all the enjoyment of driving. Also rev matching feature can be turned off/on by paddles on the wheel.
Who needs PDK and an extra 45 lbs of weight now.
Electronic limited-slip differential
Active exhaust systems valves that open for enhanced performance and sound like PSE without the extra $
Brembo Brakes and 18/19″ wheels with Michelin Pilot Super Sport run-flat tires. Rear tires are now 285’s, due to improved rubber technology which sure will help in the rain vs the hydroplaning 325’s, I’ll take 18’s over those 991 20’s any day.
New aluminum frame structure that is 57% stiffer and 99 pounds lighter than the C6 steel frame.
Improved aerodynamics help balance front and rear grip for high-speed driving. This is the vent in the hood that pushes air flow down and keeps the front end from lifting.
Head lights that don’t look like they came from the 60’s era.
Interior is really improved, leather and real aluminum and carbon fiber trim everywhere. Competition seats that look like GT2 seats. Instrument cluster that has advanced technologies include a five-position Drive Mode Selector that optimizes 12 different configurations for the driving conditions in five settings: Weather, Eco, Tour, Sport and Track. Two 720p high-def eight-inch screens and a configurable color heads up display provide the driver with the personalized details. I’ll take that over the out of place 100 button Panamera center console in the 991.
It’s value, I’d expect that the C7 will run circles around 991’s at the track all for the price of a Boxster S.
Very good presentation,after this ^^ I'm actually thinking about a Vette...
Aggressive language too...I have got to tell you...you've won this argument...for the money you can't beat the Vette!
Good luck to you...and the Vette!
01-18-2013, 01:54 PM
#117
Nordschleife Master
And it only took you 4455 posts to realize that... It seems you've been wasting your time here...
Very good presentation,after this ^^ I'm actually thinking about a Vette...
Aggressive language too...I have got to tell you...you've won this argument...for the money you can't beat the Vette!
Good luck to you...and the Vette!
Very good presentation,after this ^^ I'm actually thinking about a Vette...
Aggressive language too...I have got to tell you...you've won this argument...for the money you can't beat the Vette!
Good luck to you...and the Vette!
01-18-2013, 02:11 PM
#118
And it only took you 4455 posts to realize that... It seems you've been wasting your time here...
Very good presentation,after this ^^ I'm actually thinking about a Vette...
Aggressive language too...I have got to tell you...you've won this argument...for the money you can't beat the Vette!
Good luck to you...and the Vette!
Very good presentation,after this ^^ I'm actually thinking about a Vette...
Aggressive language too...I have got to tell you...you've won this argument...for the money you can't beat the Vette!
Good luck to you...and the Vette!
01-18-2013, 03:19 PM
#119
Race Director
Huh? technical upgrades. Porsche is not the best in this aspect and you have to pay for it.
With the C7 comes many advanced updates.
Active Rev Matching ensures the perfect shifts whether you’re up-shifting or down-shifting.
The 991 has down-shifting at extra $ but it has no up-shifting. I’d point out down-shifting is no big deal it only helps those that can’t heel and tow but even for those who can, it will do this for you perfectly every time. Now up-shifting is where the real improvement is. This is where automatic transmission like PDK improve acceleration performance because there is no loss of rpm and power when it changes gears. With the C7 active rev matching will close the gap that the flappy paddle gear boxes have and guess what, it does this and you get to keep your clutch pedal and not lose all the enjoyment of driving. Also rev matching feature can be turned off/on by paddles on the wheel.
Who needs PDK and an extra 45 lbs of weight now.
Electronic limited-slip differential, electronic e-brake
Active exhaust systems valves that open for enhanced performance and sound like PSE without the extra $
DFI and cylinder deactivation.
Brembo Brakes and 18/19″ wheels with Michelin Pilot Super Sport run-flat tires. Rear tires are now 285’s, due to improved rubber technology which sure will help in the rain vs the hydroplaning 325’s, I’ll take 18’s over those 991 20’s any day.
New aluminum frame structure that is 57% stiffer and 99 pounds lighter than the C6 steel frame.
Improved aerodynamics help balance front and rear grip for high-speed driving. This is the vent in the hood that pushes air flow down and keeps the front end from lifting.
Head lights that don’t look like they came from the 60’s era.
Interior is really improved, leather and real aluminum and carbon fiber trim everywhere. Competition seats that look like GT2 seats. Instrument cluster that has advanced technologies include a five-position Drive Mode Selector that optimizes 12 different configurations for the driving conditions in five settings: Weather, Eco, Tour, Sport and Track. Two 720p high-def eight-inch screens and a configurable color heads up display provide the driver with the personalized details. I’ll take that over the out of place 100 button Panamera center console in the 991.
It’s value, I’d expect that the C7 will run circles around 991’s at the track all for the price of a Boxster S.
With the C7 comes many advanced updates.
Active Rev Matching ensures the perfect shifts whether you’re up-shifting or down-shifting.
The 991 has down-shifting at extra $ but it has no up-shifting. I’d point out down-shifting is no big deal it only helps those that can’t heel and tow but even for those who can, it will do this for you perfectly every time. Now up-shifting is where the real improvement is. This is where automatic transmission like PDK improve acceleration performance because there is no loss of rpm and power when it changes gears. With the C7 active rev matching will close the gap that the flappy paddle gear boxes have and guess what, it does this and you get to keep your clutch pedal and not lose all the enjoyment of driving. Also rev matching feature can be turned off/on by paddles on the wheel.
Who needs PDK and an extra 45 lbs of weight now.
Electronic limited-slip differential, electronic e-brake
Active exhaust systems valves that open for enhanced performance and sound like PSE without the extra $
DFI and cylinder deactivation.
Brembo Brakes and 18/19″ wheels with Michelin Pilot Super Sport run-flat tires. Rear tires are now 285’s, due to improved rubber technology which sure will help in the rain vs the hydroplaning 325’s, I’ll take 18’s over those 991 20’s any day.
New aluminum frame structure that is 57% stiffer and 99 pounds lighter than the C6 steel frame.
Improved aerodynamics help balance front and rear grip for high-speed driving. This is the vent in the hood that pushes air flow down and keeps the front end from lifting.
Head lights that don’t look like they came from the 60’s era.
Interior is really improved, leather and real aluminum and carbon fiber trim everywhere. Competition seats that look like GT2 seats. Instrument cluster that has advanced technologies include a five-position Drive Mode Selector that optimizes 12 different configurations for the driving conditions in five settings: Weather, Eco, Tour, Sport and Track. Two 720p high-def eight-inch screens and a configurable color heads up display provide the driver with the personalized details. I’ll take that over the out of place 100 button Panamera center console in the 991.
It’s value, I’d expect that the C7 will run circles around 991’s at the track all for the price of a Boxster S.
My technical issues comment refers to the fact that Chevy still uses a leaf spring rear suspension, plastic bodywork, relatively low revving OHV V8, and offers no modern dual clutch auto/manual. Since the drivetrain is the heart of a sports car, IMO, those last two are particularly significant.
Look, we can argue about personal preferences like the shape of the headlights all day, but it's pointless. I can prefer Porsche's approach to sports cars and you can prefer Corvette's. More than that, a car like the Porsche or Corvette has to reach you on an emotional level. No matter how capable the Corvette may prove to be I can't get past the way it looks. To me, the Porsche look is timeless and classic, the Corvette is from the "hey look at me" neo-Batmobile school. Strictly my biased, totally subjective opinion; I get that others feel differently. Fortunately, we have a car that can appeal to each of us and I'm willing to agree to disagree as to which one of us is "right".
01-18-2013, 03:20 PM
#120
Rennlist Member
They would never be able to sell a Corvette for what a 991 sells for and even if they did, imagine how much better it would be then a Porsche if they had another 60k to put in it. The Vette even at half the price beats most other World class sports cars in many categories.